Jon's attitude at the end

[Ankou]

2 minutes ago, GilletteMace said:

that whats the whole jon ressurection is all about, there simply is no soul or anything that moves on. religion, gods and souls are just creations of the living world completely meaningless in the end, because there simply is nothing. i also think that this is a beautiful and deeply truthful message. concepts of afterlife only concern the living. this insight is the highlight of this episode.

The point is it's still impossible to know. If you have a near death experience and remember nothing, it's like, "Yeah? So?" I wouldn't expect someone to remember anything, if their soul did go somewhere, if souls exist. It's still a metaphysical question and you're searching for physical evidence. They're incompatible. 

[HellasLEAF]

I'm sorry but I simply disagree OP.

Jon's exit was handled perfectly.  He gave his life to the watch.  Much like Ned, he made decisions he felt were right and it got him killed.

I think we are being too flippant about his return from the dead.  He was killed and is now alive again.  Even in Westeroos where magic is real this is extremely shocking to himself and those around him.  Anyone, even Jon Snow has to have a chip on his shoulder for that.  He wants to find his family and retake Winterfell (I'm assuming why he left).  Sounds good to me.  The White Walkers are coming regardless.  Time to gather a real army not just what is at the wall. 

[GilletteMace]

@ankou it is impossible to know, thats why concepts of the afterlive only concern the living. i am not searching for physical evidence of any kind, i just accept jons words in the context of this show as a fictional metaphysical answer, that in my opinion has every right to oppose any concepts of belief. to me it is a lot more pleasant to get this kind of answer to the question of the afterlife than anything else.

[Northernmonkey]

I took it to mean that after his brothers betrayed him he decided he couldn't carry on, out of a sense of shame, failure, anger etc. I don't think the loophole in the Night's Watch vow even came into his thinking.

[nmuir22]

Long time lurker on the forums and my first post.

The realisation after Thorne's words and looking Olly in the eyes. I thought that end for Jon was perfect.

[tmug]

Thorn's last words to Jon were pretty haunting IMO. Alliser sees Jon die with his own eyes, come back to life and he still finds a way to taunt the guy. "I get to die and lay to rest in peace. You, Jon Snow, will never be able to rest and will be alive forever"

I think that finally made Jon just say "Fuck this, I'm outta here" like he almost did in S1.

[Lord Friendzone]

He just drop the mic and left the building.

It was mixture of anger, dissapointment, bertrayl (his own men stabbed him and kid he considered brother almost) what he learned is on the other side...nothing. What lies behind the wall. Night's Watch lost their purpose long time ago and he acknowledged that fact with Tormund in season 5.

[jugdesh258]

Well everyone knows that Jon's death and rebirth was going to be mechanism to free him from his vows.  We've discussed that for years already.

The issue about him having to choose to leave might just be a thing on the show because D&D have Jon and Mel at the wall at when everything takes place.  They need to write some divorce.  Probably made them also add the hanging scene because D&D think viewers want to see justice be done like they had to have Brienne kill Stannis.  Olly does not exist in book and Allister was not there and/or conspirator.   We never had anything invested in Bowen Marsh to care what happen to him after betrayal.

I think in the book Jon's killing is more of the Watch abandoning him rather then opportunity for Jon throwing in the cloak.   Jon's body is spirited away to that place north of the wall with the 7 weirwoods based on Mel's vision with Bloodraven and wolf boy watching.   As what happens often in the book when characters are separated they never reconnect in the short term so I feel that Jon might not really get to circle back to wall conspirators even if he feels need for vengeance.   I think more likely the watch disintegrates as an effective fighting force after the events in ADWD.   Half dessert their posts with loss of order.   A more fitting GRRM punishment for those that remained to eat out watch provisions would be to be overrun by the others for not listening to Jon in alliance with wildlings.

Overall, I don't think it such a big deal that he does walk out like he did given the circumstances.

[Nymeria_Stark]

I agree with his decision to leave. If you think about it, his watch ended when he was confirmed dead. Now that he's come back, maybe he knew that his revival was that loophole he needed. We all know about R+L=J, the widely held theory which was ALMOST confirmed in Bran's scene. SO, Jon's death and revival gave him the exact loophole he needed to leave the Wall without abandoning his oath and go south... HOPEFULLY to meet Howland Reed and learn the truth of his parentage!

[Azul DeLaRosa]

It made perfect sense to me. He already gave one life for the Watch, this one he can use as he pleases. Why stay and get killed by his own men again? The last two Lord Commanders were killed by his own men, the Watch is pretty much not worth it. Let the Wildlings watch the wall. At least they know who the real enemy is. 

[princess_snow]

12 hours ago, bb1180 said:

I don't want this going off the main topic,  but the main issue I have with it is that we clearly have a supernatural aspect to this story,  including a main character who has just been resurrected.  Its strongly suggestive of a higher power at play.  There's an apparent discrepancy there,  and IMO,  its one that needs some kind of logical explanation if there actually isn't one.  

Thank god for you ! I totally agree and was trying to explain in another thread. You've summed it up perfectly. Its the only thing that I could possibly be upset with thus far. Im hoping we get an explanation at some point.

[dantares83]

9 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

There is no realistic scenario that leaves Olly alive. Jon had to make the Hard choice, and it was the right one. The boy was a lost cause. 

 

Seriously show me a way where Olly lives and is able to contribute at the wall? There is no longer a home for Olly, even if he lets him go, and no place he can survive south of the Wall in the winter. There is also no changing his mind either. Olly would have tried to kill Jon again, or a Wildling, and would be the kid who opens the gates to Ramsey. Leave him in a cell, and all he does is eat food which there is a shortage of.

 

So yeah if faced with a scenario that TV Jon faced with Olly, Book Jon executes a kid.

Time can change everything and I am sure when Olly and the others finally see the Others, they know they will need the help of Wildlings. 

Anyway, per topic, I think he finally gave all up when he realize he always have to make terrible decisions and have already broken his vows long ago when he 'allied' with the Wildlings. 

[jbob]

Don't get me wrong people, I don't have a problem with him leaving. Just that the WW are still important. The character should know that. Whether he's part of the NW or not. Maybe, they'll show ore of that next week though. It just looked like he left Castle Black completely.

[sj4iy]

This is exactly what I thought he would do in the thread about this for "home", so it makes perfect sense to me.  He realizes that honor means nothing- he gave his life for the Night's Watch and couldn't accomplish what he has been trying to do- save humanity from the coming invasion.  So now he needs to find another way- one where he can do whatever is required to reach his goal.  And that is more important than honor, duty and oaths.

[Greg B]

I think Jon's actions make a lot more sense in the show than in Dance. Getting murdered by the Night's Watch is good motivation for leaving the organization. Whether he's breaking his oath or not can be left as an open question for us, if we care. It's clearly not an important question for Jon. Either way, this is a coherent sequence of events -- the only oddity is that Thorne apparently felt duty-bound to open the gates for Jon and the wildlings, but not so duty-bound that he'd shy away from assassinating Jon for letting the wildlings in. I don't blame this on the show writers; it's the corner they were placed in.

In Dance, Jon breaks his oath and goes rogue first -- because Ramsay sent him a letter -- and then gets assassinated. Jon's vows are history before the first dagger strikes. And the conspirators, who don't want the wildlings at the Wall, murder Jon so that he won't lead the wildlings away from the Wall, in full view of said wildlings after Jon has just rallied them to his cause and with a rampaging giant in their midst. I guess that seemed more sensible than sending a raven to Bolton informing him that Warlord Snow was on his way?

All in all, I thought it was deftly handled. I did think we'd get something like the Shieldhall speech, rather than just the mic drop, but the mic drop was very good. I think we'll still get something like the Shieldhall speech, and the timing and narrative logic for it will be far more sound than in the book.

[House Cambodia]

I think he's just kicking around backstage, waiting for the encore - which will happen with Sansa's imminent arrival. But he's done with the NW, and rightly so. He'll be a warlord now, supporting Sansa and other Stark semi-siblings (so he believes) as and when they rock up. I don't think he'll seek power and title for himself.

[HellasLEAF]

Jon will not seek power.  But it will be thrust upon him and that is exactly why he will lead in the end.  

The potential battle to re-take Winterfell from that heathen Ramsay may be the episode to top Blackwater.

Finally, we'll have some good news for the Starks.   

Can't wait.  

[FullingimL]

Im annoyed by Jon's description of the "afterlife" as nothing. 

 

In the book, Martin's Dance prologue character wargs into a wolf and watches his human body being killed. This foreshadows that Jon will warg into Ghost upon his death. 

Im disappointed how the show ignored this very important part of Jon's dire wolf connection. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ser Kafka]

Iirc, when one is resurrected, doesn't that person'smindset change? 

And in any case, would you really stick around after you were stabbed to death by your 'brothers'? 

His mentality has changed for sure. I can definitely see him riding on Winterfell with Tormund et all joining him. 

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

15 hours ago, Bran Snow said:

IIRC in Jaqen's case, he said it to Arya when she saved him and the two other prisoners from the fire. So the context was that you had 3 lives set to die and you stole those deaths from the god and now you must repay him with 3 other deaths. It wasn't bringing people back from death.

So we agree on that part. The main thing I meant to say here, was that "only death can pay for life" does not appear to be a generic magic rule. Arya/Jaquen must repay the stolen lives back to the many faced gods and Mirri is a blood mage, where the "only death can pay for life" thing might be a rule.

There are a lot of things unclear, however followers of R'hllor are clearly not bound by the "only death can pay for life" rule as some people do tend to believe.