L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Wow, and I thought other topics were going crazy. Hell, I may as well weigh in with my own nonsense and have a little fun!

Couple issues, Ellia (Martell) Targaryen was not at the TOJ, she had already been raped and murdered by Gregor Clegane at this point. So that rules her out as being Jons mom.

Why were the KG there, because they were ordered to be there by Rheagar, and they must follow his orders.

Could R+L = J be true, of course, and likely it is. I mean Lyanna says, "promise" over and over, so if (mighty big if) Rheagar had married Lyanna as Targs were known to do, Jon would be a Prince, and Jon would literally be the Prince that was promised (promise me Ned).

Go back to the house of the undying when Dany had her visions, she saw her brother Rheagar holding a baby boy, said he already has a song, a song of ice and fire. So Dany has already seen something to tell her about Jon's existence, she assumed it was Viserys he was holding though, the books went into much more details but I digress.

Legitimacy and heir to throne, does anyone really think the throne matters in the end? Again, Dany and her visions, the throne room was destroyed (maybe Cersei goes all mad queen and burns KL to the ground) and it was snowing. Now as far as the proving anything to the rest of the kingdom, Jon will likely be dead in the end so who will care? Do the small folk care who sits on the throne? They will sing his song though, the Song of Fire and Ice, Stark and Targaryen.

To me Dany will get to the battle in the North with the walkers in time to help win it, but Jon dies in the end and she realizes he was her brother and TPTWP, Azor whatever Ahoy.

 

Again, only my thoughts and some book info

 

Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon. Nothing to do with Jon. Blue flower passage is relevant to him most likely.

[dbunting]

11 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon. Nothing to do with Jon. Blue flower passage is relevant to him most likely.

So if you think the vision was of Aegon and that the song of ice and fire is about him, then he is also TPTWP? So you believe he is alive?

[Lord Friendzone]

14 minutes ago, dbunting said:

So if you think the vision was of Aegon and that the song of ice and fire is about him, then he is also TPTWP? So you believe he is alive?

He's dead most likely but Rhaegar was most likely wrong about many things considering prophecies. I just wanted to point out that the vision you mentioned in the HOTU sequence was Aegon and not Jon. While Jon might very well come from Ice and Fire lineage Rhaegar and Lyanna and be that union.

[dbunting]

11 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

He's dead most likely but Rhaegar was most likely wrong about many things considering prophecies. I just wanted to point out that the vision you mentioned in the HOTU sequence was Aegon and not Jon. While Jon might very well come from Ice and Fire lineage Rhaegar and Lyanna and be that union.

Ahh, yeah sorry about that. I got them mixed up

[ShadowKitteh]

5 hours ago, dbunting said:

Wow, and I thought other topics were going crazy. Hell, I may as well weigh in with my own nonsense and have a little fun!

Couple issues, Ellia (Martell) Targaryen was not at the TOJ, she had already been raped and murdered by Gregor Clegane at this point. So that rules her out as being Jons mom.

Why were the KG there, because they were ordered to be there by Rheagar, and they must follow his orders.

Could R+L = J be true, of course, and likely it is. I mean Lyanna says, "promise" over and over, so if (mighty big if) Rheagar had married Lyanna as Targs were known to do, Jon would be a Prince, and Jon would literally be the Prince that was promised (promise me Ned).

Go back to the house of the undying when Dany had her visions, she saw her brother Rheagar holding a baby boy, said he already has a song, a song of ice and fire. So Dany has already seen something to tell her about Jon's existence, she assumed it was Viserys he was holding though, the books went into much more details but I digress.

Legitimacy and heir to throne, does anyone really think the throne matters in the end? Again, Dany and her visions, the throne room was destroyed (maybe Cersei goes all mad queen and burns KL to the ground) and it was snowing. Now as far as the proving anything to the rest of the kingdom, Jon will likely be dead in the end so who will care? Do the small folk care who sits on the throne? They will sing his song though, the Song of Fire and Ice, Stark and Targaryen.

To me Dany will get to the battle in the North with the walkers in time to help win it, but Jon dies in the end and she realizes he was her brother and TPTWP, Azor whatever Ahoy.

 

Again, only my thoughts and some book info

 

Agreed, mostly. However.....

Yes, the KG were following Rhaegar's orders, as long as they're within their purview. If he told them to fuck off and let him jump off a cliff, I don't think they'd comply. President Obama can tell the SS to take a break all he wants. Doesn't mean they'll comply.

The KG certainly wouldn't be obliged after Rhaegar's death, and overthrow of the Targs. They're pretty much unemployed at this point. They most certainly would have zero reason to fight Ned and his men unless Jon is legit. In fact, that's really the only reason to fight.

The burned out ruin and subsequent snow in the Red Keep is show only, but I think everything they showed in SHOW HotU, as opposed to BOOK HotU, are still real visions, since they couldn't show us the book version, because it would be waaaaaaay too spoilery.

I definitely think Cersei will burn down KL. At first I thought it would be dragons, but now I don't. Cersei is a much better choice. 

Remember how on the show Dany reaches for the Iron Throne, but never actually touches it? The snow is definitely Jon. And he is heir, before Dany. But she also finds Drogo and a living child in her vision.... north of the Wall. I think Dany will definitely end up with Jon, Bran, and Arya, north of the Wall, where they will destroy the WW, with her dragons. And she will find love, and have a child. It fits Mirri's prophecy:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," - When you're at the North Pole, every direction is South. So East/West is wherever you want them to be. 

"When the rivers run dry..." - When they're frozen... 

.."and mountains blow in the wind like leaves." - when they're made of snow.....

It makes sense in my head anyway...

And regarding those who have mentioned various forms of "paperwork" that might be needed to prove things - R & L married, that Robb named an heir... Jon's parents listed on his birth certificate... etc... What is with the obsession for these people in this world to possess legal paperwork like we do? This is Westeros, not the USA or any other modern Earth nation. You make a VOW, and it's DONE. I don't see them having a County Clerk's office that issues Marriage Licenses, or anything else that needs a Notary. 

 

 

 

 

[hallam]

14 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Jon doesn't have to be a bastard as R + L could marry legitimately. Targs did what Targs wanted to do.

Not many people think that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Free will.

Lyanna not telling Ned or anyone is really off though. Which is why i think LF had a hand in mixing the message somehow and before Lyanna knew it the damage had been done by Brandon riding straight to KL. Maybe Lyanna & Rhaegar were oblivious to it all- Like superman & Lois Lane in Superman II in the fortress of solitude...?

I think there was definitely LittleFinger like behavior involved. Someone telling Robert that Rheagar had Lyanna, someone taking a message from Lyanna to her family and not delivering it, that sort of thing. But it can't be Littlefinger doing that because he just wouldn't be old enough to know all the parties involved or be trusted to that extent.

A much more likely candidate for that role in Robert's rebellion would be Tywin Lannister. He hates Aerys and the Targareans for some unspecified reasons. Whether true or not, Tywin may have caused Tyrion's condition and caused the death of Joanna trying to cause an abortion.

13 hours ago, The Bear said:

People who believe he's a bastard aren't necessarily dismissing the idea he could be legitimate without considering all the facts, although I'm sure some do. Targaryen kings have had two wives, but they have almost universally been other Targs (usually sisters) and were the wives of kings, rather than princes. That informs my beliefs, personally. There is also the consideration that Rhaegar realised that he needed another child to fulfill the prophecy. If it were as simple as 'Targs do what they want' he could have surely just married whoever, or even declared Lyanna's engagement to Robert null and just openly married her. If you're going with 'Targs can do what they want' then there's no need for the cloak and dagger.

Those are my personal reasons for dismissing the possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have certainly considered the possibilities carefully.

We have read all the theories about polygamous weirwood tree bigamous marriages and find them totally unconvincing.

Jon wouldn't consider those marriages and neither should we. And the only person who being a bastard really ever mattered to was Jon. Robb would have put Jon in charge of an army without a thought. He would have given him one of the forts they took on campaign. Bronn moves up in society, Jon had that option. But being a bastard stopped him.

IF we accept that Rheagar was obsessed by that prophecy, it seems to say that there is something very special about that third child. We also know that Aerys was obsessed by the prophecy and that his inability to have children after Rheagar (multiple stillbirths, miscarriages) was an issue. Why then dismiss the possibility that the prophecy would give Rheagar a powerful motive to conceal the birth of his third child from Aerys? 

13 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Just re-watched the ToJ fight scene to listen to Lyannas scream.

The people who are saying it doesn't sound like a birth cry are right.

It sounds like she is really being stabbed - My feeling is that she's going to stab herself! Maybe do a nissa nissa on herself & then the sword "light bringer" (or whatever) will be what is buried with her.

That is something I wondered about. Lyanna is clearly very tightly connected to the story. Giving birth to Jon seems absurd. Giving her life to save Jon on the other hand would be heroic.

It is possible Rheagar had found lightbringer and that Lyanna had it with her. If so it is buried in Lyanna's tomb and that is the reason the tomb was constructed. 

There are also differences between the book and the show to deal with. Show Tower of Joy looks like it is the final destination. It is a large, defensible position. Book Tower of Joy is probably just a place that the knights made camp on the way to Dorne. 

R+E = J is the only theory that explains the whole of the backstory. 

[Tooms]

In the books there are a lot more characters and a lot more complications to consider around the ToJ. The TV show on the other hand is rather straight forward.

There are only Three characters in the TV show who could have been born in the ToJ and they are Dany, Jon, and Meera. Any one of those could be the single child of R + L. We also have the possibility of twins combining any pair, or perhaps even triplets.

Some of you might now be asking about Dany. Yup Dany is perhaps not Rhaegar's brother. She is possibly R+E=D or R+L=D. Consider that the TV show has shown nothing of Dany's upbringing and the Red Door stories from the book mean her child hood is not what Visery's told her.

If R+L=D and Ned promised to protect her for Lyanna, how could he? He couldn't go back to with a silver-haired purple eyes baby, so he would of dumped her off to someone else. Hence his regret. So then it's possible that in the Show Jon and Dany will be twins. While in the books one of them is the child or R+L and the other the child of A+B/N.

Dany and Jon being twins is hilariously fitting for a Song of Ice and Fire too.

Regardless, no one needs proof. Because they aren't meant to rule. 

If you follow the books, the child at ToJ was not meant to be king, they were meant to be the prince that was promised. That is what Rhaegar was doing, or at least what someone else was getting Rhaegar to do.

 

[The Bear]

5 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Agreed, mostly. However.....

Yes, the KG were following Rhaegar's orders, as long as they're within their purview. If he told them to fuck off and let him jump off a cliff, I don't think they'd comply. President Obama can tell the SS to take a break all he wants. Doesn't mean they'll comply.

The KG certainly wouldn't be obliged after Rhaegar's death, and overthrow of the Targs. They're pretty much unemployed at this point. They most certainly would have zero reason to fight Ned and his men unless Jon is legit. In fact, that's really the only reason to fight.

The burned out ruin and subsequent snow in the Red Keep is show only, but I think everything they showed in SHOW HotU, as opposed to BOOK HotU, are still real visions, since they couldn't show us the book version, because it would be waaaaaaay too spoilery.

I definitely think Cersei will burn down KL. At first I thought it would be dragons, but now I don't. Cersei is a much better choice. 

Remember how on the show Dany reaches for the Iron Throne, but never actually touches it? The snow is definitely Jon. And he is heir, before Dany. But she also finds Drogo and a living child in her vision.... north of the Wall. I think Dany will definitely end up with Jon, Bran, and Arya, north of the Wall, where they will destroy the WW, with her dragons. And she will find love, and have a child. It fits Mirri's prophecy:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," - When you're at the North Pole, every direction is South. So East/West is wherever you want them to be. 

"When the rivers run dry..." - When they're frozen... 

.."and mountains blow in the wind like leaves." - when they're made of snow.....

It makes sense in my head anyway... 

Geography doesn't work that way though, lol. The world is a sphere so there's always a north, even in the north pole. I think that your idea about mountains being snowdrifts is cool though.

The thing about Rhaegar being dead is that while it might technically release them from obligation to follow his orders, they obviously don't see it that way or they wouldn't be there. The head of the KG and Arthur Dayne (who is considered the embodiment of chivalry) are some of the most staunch loyalists you'll ever meet. As long as Dayne lived, he was going to do what he saw as his duty. There is certainly a precedent of people being ridiculously loyal to the Targaryens even after their deaths, and a precedent of KG doing extremely questionable/immoral things out of loyalty to their kings/princes. It seems completely in character for the KG closest to Rhaegar, who he trusted the most, to remain loyal to his final wishes even to the point of death. Kingsguard serve for life, after all, and swear to give their lives in service to them if need be.

It seems pretty evident that they fought Ned because Rhaegar's orders were to keep Lyanna safe in the tower and not let anyone take her or the baby away. Rhaegar possibly would have let Ned in to see her if he'd been alive, but he wasn't able to deliver caveats after his death. I doubt he would have let anyone except those he trusted the most near her, though.

If Ned had taken Lyanna home alive then no doubt Robert would have had access to her (especially as a new king) and would have forced her into marriage. He probably would have sent Jon away or even had him killed (considering Ned believes Robert would have killed Cersei and her incest kids if he found out). Rhaegar must have known that and wanted her kept there until he or someone he trusted could ensure their safety.
 

1 hour ago, hallam said:

IF we accept that Rheagar was obsessed by that prophecy, it seems to say that there is something very special about that third child. We also know that Aerys was obsessed by the prophecy and that his inability to have children after Rheagar (multiple stillbirths, miscarriages) was an issue. Why then dismiss the possibility that the prophecy would give Rheagar a powerful motive to conceal the birth of his third child from Aerys?

I was addressing the specific notion that Targaryens can do whatever they like, so the rules don't apply to them and trying to point out how it pretty much voids any possible debate. There are absolutely reasons that Rhaegar might want to hide Lyanna and Jon from his father, I agree. I just think  'Targs did whatever they liked' is a weak argument that can used to be justify literally any argument in this discussion. There was a time when they did what they wanted, but that ended when they came to terms with the Faith.

[sandpiper]

15 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Lyanna not telling Ned or anyone is really off though. Which is why i think LF had a hand in mixing the message somehow and before Lyanna knew it the damage had been done by Brandon riding straight to KL. Maybe Lyanna & Rhaegar were oblivious to it all- Like superman & Lois Lane in Superman II in the fortress of solitude...?

If Lyanna had a marriage arranged by her family to Robert Baratheon, then it is difficult to see how she could have told them she intended to elope with someon else? Why do you think Ned would side with her rather than obey his father who had arranged the marriage? After battle had begun....things got a bit out of hand, and they couldnt get on ther cell phones to find out who belived what.

 If it were as simple as 'Targs do what they want' he could have surely just married whoever, or even declared Lyanna's engagement to Robert null and just openly married her. If you're going with 'Targs can do what they want' then there's no need for the cloak and dagger.

Except  Rhaegar wasnt king and had a mad father to contend with as well.

[sandpiper]

1 hour ago, hallam said:

We have read all the theories about polygamous weirwood tree bigamous marriages and find them totally unconvincing.

Jon wouldn't consider those marriages and neither should we. And the only person who being a bastard really ever mattered to was Jon. Robb would have put Jon in charge of an army without a thought. He would have given him one of the forts they took on campaign. Bronn moves up in society, Jon had that option. But being a bastard stopped him.

IF we accept that Rheagar was obsessed by that prophecy, it seems to say that there is something very special about that third child. We also know that Aerys was obsessed by the prophecy and that his inability to have children after Rheagar (multiple stillbirths, miscarriages) was an issue. Why then dismiss the possibility that the prophecy would give Rheagar a powerful motive to conceal the birth of his third child from Aerys?

 

The only reason being a bastard prevents Jon inheriting as Lord stark was because ned declined to legitimate his first born son. That is, if jon was his son. If jon was in fact not his son, then this is obviously why he did no such thing. If he wasnt first born, then he could still have been given position as a lords son. Ned disfavouring Jon regarding inheritance makes sense if in fact he is no child of ned's at all. Equally, it explains why Caitlin might be so upset about this, if ned could just turn around one day and legitimate Jon who would then take precedence over her own children.

I have no idea why Rhaegar would be afraid of telling his father about more children. If his father believed that his own children where those of the prophecy, why would he worry about other people and how many children they had?

 

[sandpiper]

32 minutes ago, The Bear said:

Geography doesn't work that way though, lol. The world is a sphere so there's always a north, even in the north pole. I think that your idea about mountains being snowdrifts is cool though.

This becomes more a question of riddles, not geography. At the north pole the sun rises once a year and sets once a year. Quite which direction this happens in, I am unclear.

33 minutes ago, The Bear said:

The thing about Rhaegar being dead is that while it might technically release them from obligation to follow his orders, they obviously don't see it that way or they wouldn't be there. The head of the KG and Arthur Dayne (who is considered the embodiment of chivalry) are some of the most staunch loyalists you'll ever meet. As long as Dayne lived, he was going to do what he saw as his duty. There is certainly a precedent of people being ridiculously loyal to the Targaryens even after their deaths, and a precedent of KG doing extremely questionable/immoral things out of loyalty to their kings/princes. It seems completely in character for the KG closest to Rhaegar, who he trusted the most, to remain loyal to his final wishes even to the point of death. Kingsguard serve for life, after all, and swear to give their lives in service to them if need be.

It seems pretty evident that they fought Ned because Rhaegar's orders were to keep Lyanna safe in the tower and not let anyone take her or the baby away. Rhaegar possibly would have let Ned in to see her if he'd been alive, but he wasn't able to deliver caveats after his death. I doubt he would have let anyone except those he trusted the most near her, though.

If Ned had taken Lyanna home alive then no doubt Robert would have had access to her (especially as a new king) and would have forced her into marriage. He probably would have sent Jon away or even had him killed (considering Ned believes Robert would have killed Cersei and her incest kids if he found out). Rhaegar must have known that and wanted her kept there until he or someone he trusted could ensure their safety.

But whichever way you argue this, the baby is important. There are really only two possible fathers suggested, Rhaegar or Robert Baratheon. Lyanna seems to have had no interest in Robert from choice, and I dont see why Robert would have raped her, being presumably constrained to wait for the wedding. So that leaves us with willing or unwiling, Rhaegar being the father. We have seen it is lawful for a lord to legitimate their illegitimate children. Whether Rhaegar legitimately married Lyanna or not, the child remains potentially a lawful heir. Even a bastard of the royal blood would be important.

Quite what the kingsguard would do is not clear. I think they are sworn to the crown, not the king, but I may be wrong. One might imagine Ned would have pointed out to them that Rhaegar was dead. At this point he might not be aware that Lyanna was pregnant or had given birth, and there is perhaps no reason the kingsguard would tell him. If the kingsguard were holding a woman with a random child, just why would they carry on doing so if Rhaegar was dead? Ok, they wish to honour Rhaegar's last command, but logically it is impossible to stay holed up in a tower forever, when their side has conclusively lost. There is no help coming.  Sooner or later they must hand over their prisoner. Arguably better to just hand over the prisoner and go find whoever is now the true heir, since presumably they think Viserys is still alive. if Lyanna was abducted by rhaegar because he loved her but the child is not his, what is their significance any more after his death? If their duty is to the crown, it must lie elsewhere unless the child is a Targaryen.

 

33 minutes ago, The Bear said:

 I just think  'Targs did whatever they liked' is a weak argument that can used to be justify literally any argument in this discussion. There was a time when they did what they wanted, but that ended when they came to terms with the Faith.

The terms they came to with the fatith were to disband the church armies. This gave ultimate control to the king, not the church. Cersei's mistake was to give them back their armies. Targaryens are restricted by what is possible, not what is lawful.

[The Bear]

41 minutes ago, sandpiper said:

The terms they came to with the fatith were to disband the church armies. This gave ultimate control to the king, not the church. Cersei's mistake was to give them back their armies. Targaryens are restricted by what is possible, not what is lawful.

They still came to terms. It's factually incorrect to state that Targaryens were free to do whatever they wanted.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

13 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," - When you're at the North Pole, every direction is South. So East/West is wherever you want them to be.

 

 

 

Ahh, this part is easy.

The planet suffers from massive seasonal shift. This means the planet tilts a lot more than Earth. It is almost like a complete polar shift -almost & it varies from year to year/decade to decade.

So during a severe winter the planet undergoes such a substantial shift that it is literally almost upside down, thus east is west & vice versa.

 

 

[Jon Snow Bengal]

The part that i don't understand about R+L is why would Dorne tolerate that on their doorstep?

There would've been leaks, whispers about what was going on and they were there for a substantial period of time (or where they?). It is hard to believe Dorne not knowing about Rhaegar & an unknown women.

I just don't believe they would tolerate the disrespect of their princess Elia right under their own nose.

Am i missing something important here?

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, hallam said:

I think there was definitely LittleFinger like behavior involved. Someone telling Robert that Rheagar had Lyanna, someone taking a message from Lyanna to her family and not delivering it, that sort of thing. But it can't be Littlefinger doing that because he just wouldn't be old enough to know all the parties involved or be trusted to that extent.

A much more likely candidate for that role in Robert's rebellion would be Tywin Lannister. He hates Aerys and the Targareans for some unspecified reasons. Whether true or not, Tywin may have caused Tyrion's condition and caused the death of Joanna trying to cause an abortion.

We have read all the theories about polygamous weirwood tree bigamous marriages and find them totally unconvincing.

Jon wouldn't consider those marriages and neither should we. And the only person who being a bastard really ever mattered to was Jon. Robb would have put Jon in charge of an army without a thought. He would have given him one of the forts they took on campaign. Bronn moves up in society, Jon had that option. But being a bastard stopped him.

IF we accept that Rheagar was obsessed by that prophecy, it seems to say that there is something very special about that third child. We also know that Aerys was obsessed by the prophecy and that his inability to have children after Rheagar (multiple stillbirths, miscarriages) was an issue. Why then dismiss the possibility that the prophecy would give Rheagar a powerful motive to conceal the birth of his third child from Aerys? 

That is something I wondered about. Lyanna is clearly very tightly connected to the story. Giving birth to Jon seems absurd. Giving her life to save Jon on the other hand would be heroic.

It is possible Rheagar had found lightbringer and that Lyanna had it with her. If so it is buried in Lyanna's tomb and that is the reason the tomb was constructed. 

There are also differences between the book and the show to deal with. Show Tower of Joy looks like it is the final destination. It is a large, defensible position. Book Tower of Joy is probably just a place that the knights made camp on the way to Dorne. 

R+E = J is the only theory that explains the whole of the backstory. 

- Littlefinger is Cat's age - too young, and not well placed enough.

- Dwarfism is genetic, not a birth defect. Tywin wanted his own family to marry the Targs, not the Starks to marry them.

- Jon took his vows in front of a weirwood. Of course he'd recognize that as a legal marriage, as would everyone else. Westeros ≠ 2016 Earth.

- Uhm..... Aerys had three children. Two of them after Rhaegar: Viserys (clearly identified as NOT the heir because he has no KG with him), and Dany - currently shacking up in the womb.

- Elia cannot have anymore children after Aegon because it would kill her. There's nothing remotely in the books that would even hint at a third child of Elia's.

- In the book - it's just like the show - an abandoned watchtower, not some camp.

To get the gravity of this scene and this entire story, you have to understand The Great Chain of Being, and understand what it means to live in that world, within the Chain. God, King/Queen, Prince/Princess, .... on down to Knights, and the common folk. 

Crown Prince, Heir to the Seven Kingdoms, titles titles... Rhaegah Tar(married + 2 kids), runs off with Lyanna

IMHO - Everything you need to know is in the scene itself, and keep in mind the biggest monster in the scene that overshadows everything, but is never mentioned: That Lyanna and Rhaegar started a WAR - and everyone knows they were the source. Everyone. Ok, maybe Skagos has no clue.. but everyone else knows why - and Ned has just spent the better part of a year, fighting in it, and now looking for the hopefully alive half of the cause. 

I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.  Where Rhaegar died, because you weren't doing your job.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. Obviously, otherwise Rhaegar would likely still be alive, which is the point of Ned's comment.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. Robert is called "Usurper", not King. The KG do not recognize House Baratheon as legal, since they are CURRENTLY still with House Targaryen - because they have the viability with them.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” Reaffirming JOB #1: Guard the King - which is what they're currently doing, and Ned knows this, as does anyone else who knows their Westerosi history/government....and all the Houses/Sigils/Words, which is why Ned starts the conversation with, "Why the hells weren't you with your (mostly acting KING due to family genetic madness- that is of course, when he wasn't chasing wolf tail) Prince, on the Trident?"

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”  Confirming and denouncing Jamie as a KG - who was there to do his job, which is protect the King. Jamie = FAIL (well, other than that whole saving the world thing.) They intend NOT to fail.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” Or get your old gig back, since you shouldn't be here....unless...?

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. Why should they bend the knee, when House Targ is still very much viable? YOU GET WHAT I'M SAYING, NED.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” Ned is on the same page here, suspecting the absolute obvious thing they're beating him over the head with at this point - that R + L = legal heir to the 7K. So.... why aren't you with Viserys, since Rhaegar's two children were killed with Elia, and Viserys should be next in line.. UNLESS..... ?

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” HERE IS THE CONFIRMATION THERE IS ANOTHER HEIR WHO COMES BEFORE VISERYS. Ned knows exactly what's up at this point, as would anyone living in that world. Lyanna is the new Queen Mother, and her child is the Targ heir, otherwise these guys wouldn't be here, and would have no reason to fight. They'd be on Dragonstone, guarding the KING, Viserys. But the King, THEIR King, isn't on Dragonstone, he/she, is right there where they are.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Why doesn't show Ned ask about his sister first? BOOK Ned doesn't even mention her, because he already knows she's there, the moment he sees the 3 KG. 

Why doesn't he say, "Hey Gerold, what's up? I've been looking all over for my sister Lyanna - pretty, dark hair, crazy... you haven't seen her by any chance, have you?" 

No. Ned brings up Rhaegar first thing. No, hullo, no nothing. Just where the hell were you - not with your BOY, and now he's dead? 

You have to remember, at this point, everyone knows Lyanna is the Westerosi equivalent of Helen of Troy. Again - She and Rhaegar started a war. There is no confusion on how Robert's Rebellion began. R+L is real, and not an urban legend. 

Robert says Rhaegar "raped" her. Why? It made him feel better, because everyone knew R+L=❤

How long were R+L shacking up? Six months? I'm pretty sure everyone expected a baby, and some may have expected a legal baby - since plural marriages n stuff - which is why it ends up being so important that Ned lie to everyone, especially Cat. 

Robert is King now. A Targaryen heir would indeed mean 

Why isn't Ned taken aback, when suddenly, after this little parlay, there's an assumption that they have to fight?? What?

Ned KNOWS he has to fight, and why. Ned knows. The KG were waiting for them. Expecting them eventually. If Ned knows, readers should, and it's why D&D got that question right. 

 

and now... bedzzzzzzz 

[ShadowKitteh]

6 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

The part that i don't understand about R+L is why would Dorne tolerate that on their doorstep?

There would've been leaks, whispers about what was going on and they were there for a substantial period of time (or where they?). It is hard to believe Dorne not knowing about Rhaegar & an unknown women.

I just don't believe they would tolerate the disrespect of their princess Elia right under their own nose.

Am i missing something important here?

How would the Dornish know, when Lyanna's own family had no clue? There's no Westerosi TMZ. They don't have drones to search their mountains. We still can't find a missing 777 airliner, and we have technology.

It easy to disappear - Arya's done it.

It takes Ned and his men months to find her, and that's after the war. If the Dornish had found them, the war might have gone another way entirely. But that's not what happened.

[sandpiper]

42 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

The part that i don't understand about R+L is why would Dorne tolerate that on their doorstep?

There would've been leaks, whispers about what was going on and they were there for a substantial period of time (or where they?). It is hard to believe Dorne not knowing about Rhaegar & an unknown women.

I just don't believe they would tolerate the disrespect of their princess Elia right under their own nose.

Am i missing something important here?

I always assumed Dorne were in on it and so was Elia. Given her husbands belief in the prophecy, her own inability to have children, the fact theirs was a political marriage anyway, I would assume she helped organise it and so they found a convenient tower in Dorne to keep matters in the family.

[dbunting]

7 hours ago, Tooms said:

There are only Three characters in the TV show who could have been born in the ToJ and they are Dany, Jon, and Meera. Any one of those could be the single child of R + L. We also have the possibility of twins combining any pair, or perhaps even triplets.

Umm, no. Dany was born on Dragon stone to witnesses during a large storm, hence her moniker, Danerys(spelling) Stormborn...

7 hours ago, Tooms said:

Regardless, no one needs proof. Because they aren't meant to rule. 

 

And this makes no sense, Dany IS ruling, she was born a princess.

[hallam]

Again, folk are assuming R+L and then using their assumption to back up the theory. If R+L=J isn't true then ZERO children are born in the ToJ. We have no evidence of any children being born in the ToJ, only a literal bed covered with literal blood. That could just as well be due to Lyanna's suicide as childbirth.

We have no direct evidence of a third child either, that is true. But we also have evidence of a prophecy about a third child, a prophecy that leads Aerys to madness.

We also have Tyrion's condition. And no, genetics probably doesn't explain it in a world with magic and dragons. Did someone (probably Tywin) try to kill Tyrion because he was the third child? Aerys doesn't know that he will have two more children when Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion are conceived. Tywin says that he wanted to have Tyrion drowned but that was forbidden - by whom?

Path dependence is assuming a theory is true and looking for evidence to support it. In my field we look for evidence that would disprove our theories.

7 hours ago, sandpiper said:

The only reason being a bastard prevents Jon inheriting as Lord stark was because ned declined to legitimate his first born son. That is, if jon was his son. If jon was in fact not his son, then this is obviously why he did no such thing. If he wasnt first born, then he could still have been given position as a lords son. Ned disfavouring Jon regarding inheritance makes sense if in fact he is no child of ned's at all. Equally, it explains why Caitlin might be so upset about this, if ned could just turn around one day and legitimate Jon who would then take precedence over her own children.

I have no idea why Rhaegar would be afraid of telling his father about more children. If his father believed that his own children where those of the prophecy, why would he worry about other people and how many children they had?

That is where the prophecy comes in. We are told that Rheagar and Aerys were both obsessed by it and the only bit we know is that the dragon has three heads.

There is a convention that GRRM follows with the Cersei prophecy of the prophecy turning true only because the character acts in a way to make it come true. They are the cause of their own fate.

Tyrion being a dwarf would seem most unlikely to be the prince who was promised. 

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

The part that i don't understand about R+L is why would Dorne tolerate that on their doorstep?

There would've been leaks, whispers about what was going on and they were there for a substantial period of time (or where they?). It is hard to believe Dorne not knowing about Rhaegar & an unknown women.

I just don't believe they would tolerate the disrespect of their princess Elia right under their own nose.

Am i missing something important here?

Book Lyanna and KG would appear to be running to Dorne to hide Rheagar's heir there. It is the only logical escape route for them.

[Nami]

1- Why would Lyanna care about hiding Rhaegar's heir?
2- Aerys was not obsessed with prophecy
3- Your theory is full of holes but I'm too busy to point out each of them