L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[tinka10]

21 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Some kind of trinket which may be buried with Lyanna - like Rhaegars harp, crown, rings, marriage certificate, birth certificate...

Wouldn't that be convenient! A token (like a harp, token, or sword) wouldn't be too far fetched, assuming there are people around to recognise them. But can you imagine if a birth or marriage certificate popped up somewhere? That would be a very cheap pay-off. I think I would die laughing.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1 minute ago, tinka10 said:

Wouldn't that be convenient! A token (like a harp, token, or sword) wouldn't be too far fetched, assuming there are people around to recognise them. But can you imagine if a birth or marriage certificate popped up somewhere? That would be a very cheap pay-off. I think I would die laughing.

Yes true, i think he'll never be able to prove it definitively, hence why him being on the throne would be 'bittersweet'. He would be the true heir but never viewed as such.

Perhaps that will be how it ends... Jon on the throne with Dany dying.... her last words from bleeding lips: "usurper....." bleeding to death in a  pool of blood, pointing slowly at Jon before collapsing & dying. Bittersweet but satisfying is GRRMs style

 

[RadSam]

18 hours ago, hallam said:

The show is demonstrating that the backstory is untrue.

The only evidence for R+L=J is that Jon looks Stark and a character called 'tells lies about Jon' says that he heard fifth hand that Elia has a cold after her second child and couldn't have a third.

-snip-

The only evidence? Are you kidding? The books are dripping with evidence. There are pages upon pages online pointing out all the evidence. It's the most widely accepted fan theory there is. How can you say that is the only evidence?

18 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Howard Reed does not compute.

Please try again.

*For the grammar is dark and full of errors.*

-snip-

[sandpiper]

I think it entirely possible Jon is the legitimate Targaryen heir. I think it most likely Rhaegar married his mother, but King Rhaegar could perfectly well have legitimated his illegitimate child before he died. it would seem a highly sensible thing to do on the eve of battle.  if so, the paperwork could have been left with anyone he was with, for example Bariston Selmy, who was present at the trident where Rhaegar died. Bariston would presumably be unaware that the child was now still alive and had been raised as Jon Snow, so no reason for him to start waving around a piece of paper legitimating dead children. This could still be amongst his effects waiting to be discovered by Daenarys. Even with the child supposely dead, it was still an important piece of information about what really happened, so you would not just throw it away. Alternatively, such a piece of paper could have come to Varys or others who had been royal advisors and who survived.

Daenarys was born after her father had died, but that does not seem to have harmed her claim to the throne. i don't know exactly when jon was born, but it seems certain Rhaegar at least knew Lyanna was pregnant.

Whether Jon will even claim the throne is another matter. There is supposed to be magic in this story somewhere and the secret of dragontaming is somehow a family trait of Targaryens.  It matters to us the viewers  who his parents really are, and may matter to the logic of what he will be able to do in the future. In particular, I think if Daenarys knows he is her nephew she will be much more willing to ally with him as and when she returns to Westeros.

[princess_snow]

6 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

 Your denial is fucking hilarious. Dont mind me, im over here enjoying you making an absolute arse of yourself.

LOL. Im not going to bother arguing with Hallam over this, its too ridiculous for words.

[ma_liky]

20 hours ago, hallam said:

The show is demonstrating that the backstory is untrue.

The only evidence for R+L=J is that Jon looks Stark and a character called 'tells lies about Jon' says that he heard fifth hand that Elia has a cold after her second child and couldn't have a third.

This is call path dependence. Once you get people to come to a false conclusion they will continually invent evidence rather than change their minds.

We are shown that appearances can be changed by matter in episode one and this week we are shown that reports of Robert's rebellion are grossly distorted. We already know that Ned didn't defeat Arthur Dayne in honorable combat, he was stabbed in the throat from behind. In episode one everyone was like 'Trystane would never be so stupid as to turn his back on someone who just said they would kill him'. This week the greatest knight of his generation turns his back on Howland Reed and nobody thinks twice.

So we now know that the duel wasn't what was claimed. I think we are going to see the entire rationale for Robert's Rebellion unravel in the same way. We know that the real cause of the war of five kings was Littlefinger. We will likely see that Rheagar and possibly even Aerys were not so much in the wrong as people imagine.

R+L=J is a nonsense theory because bastards can't inherit and Rheagar predeceased Elia. 

Now obviously that tomb was built by Ned for a reason and that reason was to hide something important. Why not bury Lyanna with the other fallen? Why does Ashara Dayne disappear?

One serious possibility is that Dawn is buried with Lyanna. Only in the show Arthur Dayne has Dawn and is using it in the fight scene. 

I don't think the cry we hear from the tower supports R+L=J either. That sounded like someone being stabbed or stabbing herself. It didn't sound like childbirth to me. 

I agree with you that everything is a lie. Everything said about the Rebellion is a lie, I now even think that Rhaegar was not killed like Robert had said. The winners write history. It is a great possibility that Dawn is buried with Lyanna. I didnt think about that possibility until you mentioned it now. And that makes a lot of sense. Explains a lot. But I disagree about childbirth, I think Lyanna had a child. But I dont think it is Jon. I think Jon is Neds son with Ashara  Dayne, he swiched the babys with her. Took Jon, Lyannas body and now Dawn with him for safe keeping until Jon becomes worthy to hold the Dawn. I always thought that he would some how had to go to Starfall to take the Dawn, but now it makes sense that when Bran finds out that Dawn is buried with Lyanna, and find Jon in Winterfall, when he leaves the tree, just needs to show him. Simple but true. Thanks man! 

[The Bear]

23 hours ago, Nami said:

Maybe he and Dany doesn't need to know
I mean, what changes if he knows? If anything maybe he will know later on when maybe meeting Bran, but I don't see how this revelation will change his life, especially because I don't think he wants anything to do with the Iron Throne. He's worried about the WW and he will fight that war.

I agree. He's not legitimate and it's not like dragons will only allow Targs to ride them or only like people with Targ blood. If Bran really does warg a dragon it only further proves that you don't need to be a Targ to bond with dragons. People seem to overlook that bonding with dragons/riding them isn't dependent upon being a Targaryen. AWOIAF proved that anyone could ride a dragon if the dragon chose to accept them.
 I just can't see Jon caring that he's Rhaegar's son. Even if someone could prove he was Rhaegar's bastard and he was somehow legitimised, it wouldn't effect the IT because the Targs lost the right to rule unless they retake it by right of conquest.

I don't think he'll need to prove his paternity. If his mixture of Stark-Targ blood was magical the way Rhaegar thought it was then that's all he needs to be TPTWP. It's not like he needs 12 points of ID to activate the prophecy or anything. I'm pretty wary of said prophecy, due to what Martin has said about them in the past.

There is really no way to prove paternity or to make people accept it. Also, the Kingsguard are bound by duty to do what they're ordered to do. It wouldn't matter why Rhaegar told them to guard the ToJ, the mere fact he ordered them to do so is enough to ensure the order is carried out. It could have been a random peasant in the tower and if Ned's group had shown up and said 'hand over the peasant or we fight to the death' the KG would have fought them to the death anyway because their orders were to protect the tower and the person inside.

I don't get the idea that Robert could have fathered Jon. All accounts (except Robert's) point to Lyanna really not being into Robert because of his whoring and general debauchery.

[hallam]

6 hours ago, doghouse said:

This clearly went over your head. He was referencing Ralph Lauren Polo shirts. It was a joke. 

It did not look remotely like a joke. I am wearing a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt right now and it doesn't say RL. 

The main reason that R+L has become the dominant theory here has been the nastiness and bullying towards anyone pointing out the problems. Bastards can't inherit, Rheagar isn't a rapist and Lyanna didn't cause the death of half her house by running off with him either. Nor would Ned remotely admire such behavior. 

[hallam]

59 minutes ago, The Bear said:

I don't get the idea that Robert could have fathered Jon. All accounts (except Robert's) point to Lyanna really not being into Robert because of his whoring and general debauchery.

I don't think it very likely. It is better than R+L but not much.

The idea there is that Robert and Lyanna get married in a secret northern weirwood tree wedding. Robert bed her, gets her pregnant then goes off whoring. Lyanna ups and leaves disguised as the knight of the laughing tree. Rheagar hires her as a sellsword or makes her a knight in his service to teach Robert a lesson.

The big problems then are that there is no way to explain the kingsguard, the death of Ashara Daynen or the relevance of the prophecy. Also Ned looks like a complete jerk for hiding Jon.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

14 minutes ago, hallam said:

It did not look remotely like a joke. I am wearing a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt right now and it doesn't say RL. 

The main reason that R+L has become the dominant theory here has been the nastiness and bullying towards anyone pointing out the problems. Bastards can't inherit, Rheagar isn't a rapist and Lyanna didn't cause the death of half her house by running off with him either. Nor would Ned remotely admire such behavior. 

Jon doesn't have to be a bastard as R + L could marry legitimately. Targs did what Targs wanted to do.

Not many people think that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Free will.

Lyanna not telling Ned or anyone is really off though. Which is why i think LF had a hand in mixing the message somehow and before Lyanna knew it the damage had been done by Brandon riding straight to KL. Maybe Lyanna & Rhaegar were oblivious to it all- Like superman & Lois Lane in Superman II in the fortress of solitude...?

[DJE]

While I don't think Jon will ever taking the IT, I do think he can be a legitimate son of Rheagar if Rheagar married Lyanna, which we don't know if that happened or not. Aegon had two wives, so there is precedence for it. For people to just dismiss Jon as a bastard without all of the facts is ridiculous. 

[The Bear]

4 minutes ago, DJE said:

While I don't think Jon will ever taking the IT, I do think he can be a legitimate son of Rheagar if Rheagar married Lyanna, which we don't know if that happened or not. Aegon had two wives, so there is precedence for it. For people to just dismiss Jon as a bastard without all of the facts is ridiculous. 

People who believe he's a bastard aren't necessarily dismissing the idea he could be legitimate without considering all the facts, although I'm sure some do. Targaryen kings have had two wives, but they have almost universally been other Targs (usually sisters) and were the wives of kings, rather than princes. That informs my beliefs, personally. There is also the consideration that Rhaegar realised that he needed another child to fulfill the prophecy. If it were as simple as 'Targs do what they want' he could have surely just married whoever, or even declared Lyanna's engagement to Robert null and just openly married her. If you're going with 'Targs can do what they want' then there's no need for the cloak and dagger.

Those are my personal reasons for dismissing the possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna being married. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have certainly considered the possibilities carefully.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Just re-watched the ToJ fight scene to listen to Lyannas scream.

The people who are saying it doesn't sound like a birth cry are right.

It sounds like she is really being stabbed - My feeling is that she's going to stab herself! Maybe do a nissa nissa on herself & then the sword "light bringer" (or whatever) will be what is buried with her.

[Nami]

10 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Just re-watched the ToJ fight scene to listen to Lyannas scream.

The people who are saying it doesn't sound like a birth cry are right.

It sounds like she is really being stabbed - My feeling is that she's going to stab herself! Maybe do a nissa nissa on herself & then the sword "light bringer" (or whatever) will be what is buried with her.

It sounds like someone giving birth and at the same time is desperate and maybe in emotional pain.
Lyanna stabbing herself is ridiculous. I rather believe she had  a 14 month pregnancy from Robert's child.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

12 minutes ago, Nami said:

It sounds like someone giving birth and at the same time is desperate and maybe in emotional pain.
Lyanna stabbing herself is ridiculous. I rather believe she had  a 14 month pregnancy from Robert's child.

 

It's not far-fetched to think Lyanna may have committed suicide after everything that has happened- especially after hearing that Rhaegar was dead. By sword helps with the nissa-nissa problem (for people who believe in that & not saying I do). People have killed themselves over less.

Do you think Robert raped Lyanna or they got it on in secret? Lyanna was wary of Robert & had heard about his whoring & didn't approve. I'm not saying your wrong as it's all speculation. Is there other evidence for this secret relationship or rape that i've forgotton/missed? 

 

 

[ErasmusF]

2 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Just re-watched the ToJ fight scene to listen to Lyannas scream.

The people who are saying it doesn't sound like a birth cry are right.

It sounds like she is really being stabbed - My feeling is that she's going to stab herself! Maybe do a nissa nissa on herself & then the sword "light bringer" (or whatever) will be what is buried with her.

Or maybe just a generic cry of pain from someone who was dying?

[Ser Hyle]

On 5/10/2016 at 9:02 PM, MrTrike said:

If as speculated at ToJ, Lyanna tells Ned that the baby Jon is hers and Rhaegar's son and swears Ned to secrecy ... then that still leaves a dilemma. Yes Bran has seen it but how do you convince the last remaining Targaryen (Dani) and indeed Jon that this is true? Perhaps Bran would take Jon back to his ToJ birth? That still leaves proving such a claim is valid to Dani. Everyone is dead who was at ToJ except for Howard Reed ... does Howard have the provenance to prove Jon's parentage? Without such L+R=J is a pretty empty claim ... unless there is some other way to prove this claim? Can see little problem with the Starks accepting Jon is indeed a Stark ... although the rest of Westeros may have a problem with it.

I think it's pretty simple - Jon saves the world, fulfilling the prophecy that drove Rhaegar to have him with Lyanna. This is what will prove his heritage to the world.

[Ser Hyle]

5 hours ago, ma_liky said:

I agree with you that everything is a lie. Everything said about the Rebellion is a lie, I now even think that Rhaegar was not killed like Robert had said. The winners write history. It is a great possibility that Dawn is buried with Lyanna. I didnt think about that possibility until you mentioned it now. And that makes a lot of sense. Explains a lot. But I disagree about childbirth, I think Lyanna had a child. But I dont think it is Jon. I think Jon is Neds son with Ashara  Dayne, he swiched the babys with her. Took Jon, Lyannas body and now Dawn with him for safe keeping until Jon becomes worthy to hold the Dawn. I always thought that he would some how had to go to Starfall to take the Dawn, but now it makes sense that when Bran finds out that Dawn is buried with Lyanna, and find Jon in Winterfall, when he leaves the tree, just needs to show him. Simple but true. Thanks man! 

You and Hallam are very entertaining.

[Castigear]

Personally I don't think it will matter about proving it to the public at large. If he ends up leading Westeros at the end it won't be because of who his parents were, it will be because of merit and who all he brings together for a common goal. His Stark heritage is well known and may open some doors....His Targaryen blood won't make many people fall to their knees...but it may affect what he can do. 

[dbunting]

Wow, and I thought other topics were going crazy. Hell, I may as well weigh in with my own nonsense and have a little fun!

Couple issues, Ellia (Martell) Targaryen was not at the TOJ, she had already been raped and murdered by Gregor Clegane at this point. So that rules her out as being Jons mom.

Why were the KG there, because they were ordered to be there by Rheagar, and they must follow his orders.

Could R+L = J be true, of course, and likely it is. I mean Lyanna says, "promise" over and over, so if (mighty big if) Rheagar had married Lyanna as Targs were known to do, Jon would be a Prince, and Jon would literally be the Prince that was promised (promise me Ned).

Go back to the house of the undying when Dany had her visions, she saw her brother Rheagar holding a baby boy, said he already has a song, a song of ice and fire. So Dany has already seen something to tell her about Jon's existence, she assumed it was Viserys he was holding though, the books went into much more details but I digress.

Legitimacy and heir to throne, does anyone really think the throne matters in the end? Again, Dany and her visions, the throne room was destroyed (maybe Cersei goes all mad queen and burns KL to the ground) and it was snowing. Now as far as the proving anything to the rest of the kingdom, Jon will likely be dead in the end so who will care? Do the small folk care who sits on the throne? They will sing his song though, the Song of Fire and Ice, Stark and Targaryen.

To me Dany will get to the battle in the North with the walkers in time to help win it, but Jon dies in the end and she realizes he was her brother and TPTWP, Azor whatever Ahoy.

 

Again, only my thoughts and some book info