Aussies LXV - what choices have we?!

[Arkhangel]

34 minutes ago, Horza said:

Nope, nope, nope and you're talking extra spicy bullshit about the turbines.

The blackout wasn't a generator failure, it was a transmission failure caused by that storm you mentioned. You know, the one that ripped down 22 main tranmission lines. It didn't matter whether SA's power supply was wholesome nuclear or dastardly renewables ( which were producing half of the state's power at the time, but whatever) because when a power grid drastically loses supply the operator shuts down demand to prevent a frequency collapse.

Someone has even thoughtfully made this handy dandy chart to explain this complex and intricate phenomenon.

[Squab]

10 hours ago, Horza said:

Nope, nope, nope and you're talking extra spicy bullshit about the turbines.

The blackout wasn't a generator failure, it was a transmission failure caused by that storm you mentioned. You know, the one that ripped down 22 main tranmission lines. It didn't matter whether SA's power supply was wholesome nuclear or dastardly renewables ( which were producing half of the state's power at the time, but whatever) because when a power grid drastically loses supply the operator shuts down demand to prevent a frequency collapse.

 Approximately 1,900 megawatts (MW) was being consumed in South Australia at the time of the power failure, with South Australian generation being supported by 505 MW of supply from Victoria via the Heywood interconnector, and 105 MW of supply from Victoria via the Murraylink DC cable.  Depending on who you believe, either the wind turbines were shut down (ABC) or generating 800 MW (the Greens).  Where did you get half from?

If you can forget (or just be ignorant of) how steel is made and copper sourced, of course wind energy is great when the wind is blowing and its cheap.  Not exactly great during peak times meaning when you need it so you need something reliable which is sold at a price to make their whole business viable (see South Australian electricity price spikes).  So South Australia imports electricity from Victoria who make enough electricity for themselves and to help Victoria as well.  More generators in different areas would have meant the loss of 22 lines wouldn't have returned South Australia (and its 1.68M inhabitants) to the dark ages, almost literally.

The South Australian electricity network has been weakened by its reliance on wind power and is now considered unreliable and "a laughing stock" to quote Mr Xenephon.

[Horza]

59 minutes ago, Squab said:

 Approximately 1,900 megawatts (MW) was being consumed in South Australia at the time of the power failure, with South Australian generation being supported by 505 MW of supply from Victoria via the Heywood interconnector, and 105 MW of supply from Victoria via the Murraylink DC cable.  Depending on who you believe, either the wind turbines were shut down (ABC) or generating 800 MW (the Greens).  Where did you get half from?

Hey look - it's the person who spent the previous post linking the blackout to the turbines not running now trying to nitpick how much power they were generating (and asking for citations without providing any of their own). I guess you're conceding that the crash had nothing to do with wind power then? Anyway: contrary to the ABC, the turbines were running at the time of the crash and generating something like 1GW (so a bit more than half) per the AEMO. All completely irrelevant to the crash itself, but you asked.

Quote

  More generators in different areas would have meant the loss of 22 lines wouldn't have returned South Australia (and its 1.68M inhabitants) to the dark ages, almost literally.

I agree with this, but I have no idea how it supports your argument for nuclear power, which generates a tonne of power from a single location. If you want decentralised power you're looking at a lot of smaller generators, preferably of a sort that don't take up a lot of space...

 

[Squab]

27 minutes ago, Horza said:

Hey look - it's the person who spent the previous post linking the blackout to the turbines not running now trying to nitpick how much power they were generating (and asking for citations without providing any of their own). I guess you're conceding that the crash had nothing to do with wind power then? Anyway: contrary to the ABC, the turbines were running at the time of the crash and generating something like 1GW (so a bit more than half) per the AEMO. All completely irrelevant to the crash itself, but you asked.

I agree with this, but I have no idea how it supports your argument for nuclear power, which generates a tonne of power from a single location. If you want decentralised power you're looking at a lot of smaller generators, preferably of a sort that don't take up a lot of space...

 

The focus on renewables and specifically wind power has weakened South Australian electricity security and stability.

I do think the wind turbines not running are the cause of many of the price spikes but not the blackout. South Australia don't make enough electricity to service their own needs and their foray into renewables has been a failure and driven other (more reliable) suppliers out of the market. They've shut down Leigh creek and the coal powered generators.  Maybe they look at reopening those or going nuclear considering their abundant resources. They have to do something to provide energy security otherwise the last company leaving SA wont need to turn out the lights as they wont even be on.

[Horza]

So, this had no connection to the outage other than you just wanted to have a few goes at improving on Langs killer line about renewables leaving everyone in the dark.

I guess I could point out that SA had more price spikes back in the 00s when it had little to no renewables generation, and July's spike had as much to do with high gas prices, but why bother when I'm arguing with someone whose happy to piggyback their prejudices onto any crisis going?

[Squab]

14 minutes ago, Horza said:

So, this had no connection to the outage other than you just wanted to have a few goes at improving on Langs killer line about renewables leaving everyone in the dark.

I guess I could point out that SA had more price spikes back in the 00s when it had little to no renewables generation, and July's spike had as much to do with high gas prices, but why bother when I'm arguing with someone whose happy to piggyback their prejudices onto any crisis going?

I cant believe you would want a whole state to freeze to death in the dark four your renewable crusade.  Its almost as if progressive actually means regressive.  How very Orwellian.

All other states have had similar storms and worse and not lost power to the whole state. Other states use gas, no price spikes as bad as seen in SA.  Gas prices did not spike as bad. Pull your head out of the sand.

 

[Horza]

9 minutes ago, Squab said:

 

All other states have had similar storms and worse and not lost power to the whole state.

 

Weird, I thought you'd just said there wasn't a connection between the blackout and renewables. But sure, accuse other people of doublethink.

(Also whether a state loses all power depends on how decentralised the transmission network is - most other states are more decentralised than SA, like QLD, where the Far North regularly loses power to cyclones, but I'm done humouring Squab.)

 

[Squab]

3 minutes ago, Horza said:

Weird, I thought you'd just said there wasn't a connection between the blackout and renewables. But sure, accuse other people of doublethink.

(Also whether a state loses all power depends on how decentralised the transmission network is - most other states are more decentralised than SA, like QLD, where the Far North regularly loses power to cyclones, but I'm done humouring Squab.)

 

I wonder if anyone regrets this.  Probably not with their heads in the sand.  At least there's a lot of sand for them in SA.  As I said earlier, the focus on renewables and specifically wind power has weakened South Australian electricity security and stability.

Why do you want people to freeze in the dark? So you can sleep better?

[Arkhangel]

Damn, rumbled. The perfidious renewables lobby is attempting to maliciously restrict global warming in order to make people freeze in the dark. Good on you for not letting yourself be deterred from the truth by trivial excuses like extensive research or simple logic.

[Squab]

7 minutes ago, Arkhangel said:

Damn, rumbled. The perfidious renewables lobby is attempting to maliciously restrict global warming in order to make people freeze in the dark. Good on you for not letting yourself be deterred from the truth by trivial excuses like extensive research or simple logic.

Its hard to dispute the evidence of a whole state being plunged into darkness.

Why not have the strength of your convictions?  Do not use anything created or transported using fossil fuels.  Or does someone else needs to do it all for you?  Maybe you just a lot of bluster. You should move to SA but just make sure you don't have any steel in the house, enjoy the bronze age.

[Arkhangel]

My house is made of organic tempeh and Gina Rinehart's tears.

[The Winged Shadow]

Fuck South Australia. It's a hole.

Should cut those bastards off so they don't take precious grid power from the MCG on this hallowed weekend, when the mighty Swans will crush those upstart Dogs.

[Squab]

4 minutes ago, Arkhangel said:

My house is made of organic tempeh and Gina Rinehart's tears.

Don't think Gina cries. Crying is for the weak

3 minutes ago, The Winged Shadow said:

Fuck South Australia. It's a hole.

Should cut those bastards off so they don't take precious grid power from the MCG on this hallowed weekend, when the mighty Swans will crush those upstart Dogs.

I am betting on a Sydney-Sydney weekend

[Paxter]

Yes, I'm not expecting any joy for Dogs fans. But I'll be cheering for them regardless!

Bit of a shame GWS didn't make it, but they will have other opportunities.

[Impmk2]

4 hours ago, Squab said:

I wonder if anyone regrets this.  Probably not with their heads in the sand.  At least there's a lot of sand for them in SA.  As I said earlier, the focus on renewables and specifically wind power has weakened South Australian electricity security and stability.

Why do you want people to freeze in the dark? So you can sleep better?

As the power lines to Port Augusta were cut (was one of the hardest hit areas), I'm going to say having that power station still there wouldn't have done much. 

 

[Eyelesbarrow]

Hallo Aussies! Hope you guys are peachy. I'm asking you guys some questions because I am helping my brother who is moving to Melbourne. He got an IT job offer there so fuck Duterte and onwards and upwards with the Filipino diaspora! (And that means I might be on your shores for a visit in the soon-ish future).  He's gross annual salary is around 45,000-50,000 AUD, how much can he expect to have after tax? And is that enough for a single guy? Also, what is the average rent and where are the OK, not so expensive neighborhoods?  I understand his company will help give him a place for a week, but after that, he has to find a flat.  Is there a flat-sharing culture there? He's also doing his own research, but it would be nice to have some pointers from the locals.  Anyways, thanks in advance for any answers. 

 

[Arkhangel]

HA. Take that Sydney.

[karaddin]

11 hours ago, Eyelesbarrow said:

Hallo Aussies! Hope you guys are peachy. I'm asking you guys some questions because I am helping my brother who is moving to Melbourne. He got an IT job offer there so fuck Duterte and onwards and upwards with the Filipino diaspora! (And that means I might be on your shores for a visit in the soon-ish future).  He's gross annual salary is around 45,000-50,000 AUD, how much can he expect to have after tax? And is that enough for a single guy? Also, what is the average rent and where are the OK, not so expensive neighborhoods?  I understand his company will help give him a place for a week, but after that, he has to find a flat.  Is there a flat-sharing culture there? He's also doing his own research, but it would be nice to have some pointers from the locals.  Anyways, thanks in advance for any answers. 

 

$50k would be ~$42k after tax. I can't say for sure for Melbourne, as it's a bit cheaper than Sydney, but that's not a lot of income after you're taking rent out of it. Again I don't know Melbourne rents, on the whole the property market is pretty bad but better than Sydney and I *think* renting is substantially better and there are places that are livable but still affordable.  It's livable and if he does get a share house/flat it's probably pushing comfortable unless he's wanting to live in the city. 

 

ETA: The dis-ingenuousness of the SA power argument is simply breathtaking.  I'd say its pretty clear when the high voltage power "poles" are getting snapped in half that the weather is simply outside the tolerances for which they have been built, and that the storm doing this is the problem, but no lets claim that nuclear would somehow have made everything better. I mean, natural disasters are the ideal time to be advocating for nuclear amirite? Its not like anything can go wrong with those*!

 

Note: I'm not particularly anti-nuclear when appropriate, but its truly absurd to be using this outage as an argument for it. I find the whole need to assign blame pointless, we'll be facing more and more extreme weather so rather than playing it as a fucking political football how about we get on with adjusting to cope with said weather? If the poles and wires need to withstand storms like this as an uncommon occurrence, rather than once in 50 years, then adjust standards to be able to withstand it AND focus on further decentralisation to improve redundancy.

[Impmk2]

Its particularly stupid as SA has just had a very pro-nuclear royal commission into the industry, which found while theres opportunities in a fuel dump, a nuclear power plant just wouldn't be economically viable. 

[Paxter]

Eyeles! If you visit Australia, you better make a Sydney stopover. Or else.

I agree with karaddin - 50k income means that he should look for a place outside the inner city suburbs, so that he can maintain a decent lifestyle after covering rent. The good thing is that Melbourne has pretty good public transport options (I'm comparing it to Sydney here!) so he won't feel too isolated even if he is living in a quieter/less-central suburb.

Oh and there is a flatmate culture here - there are a number of good websites that could help in this regard (e.g. Flatmate Finders).