Why Jon/Arya could work in the Books. I'll explain in a quick Essay!

[MostlyMoody]

Write a fan-fic about it and flick your bean. Why do you need to present it as an actual theory?

[Stormourne]

10 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I feel like "a quick essay" is an oxymoron. 

Trust me, this is short when compared to the essays I have to write for uni. :/

[Stormourne]

10 hours ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

Write a fan-fic about it and flick your bean. Why do you need to present it as an actual theory?

Does the possibility of Jon and Arya make you uncomfortable? Probably because it is plausible. Could it actually happen, yes and no. It is a theory. But the reason I wrote it was to show that it is possible, if done right. Don't blame me because George planned Asoiaf with them falling in love and being tormented about it in mind, and there is some foreshadowing in the first book because of it. Maybe he changed his mind, or maybe he just changed the way in which it would eventually unfold. I merely put forth possible ways in which they could form a relationship that they know is obviously wrong.

Life is not a fairy tale, my friend. And when love hits you like a storm, a conflict of the heart will rise. Lots of people obviously feel uncomfortable with the idea that Jon and Arya could become a thing. That's the point, it's not suppose to feel like some Disney movie.

The ultimate reason I wrote this essay was to show that because they are both damaged... that they are both the only characters who'd truly be able to understand each other's trauma, thus they could start to heal when they reunite. And in that healing process, their familial love could become warped, unintentionally, into something akin to romantic love.

Don't just set aside my theory because it involves incest, and incest is wrong. No one who's commented so far has even tried to disprove the facts I stated in the essay... It's telling, no?

[MostlyMoody]

4 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Does the possibility of Jon and Arya make you uncomfortable? Probably because it is plausible. Could it actually happen, yes and no. It is a theory. But the reason I wrote it was to show that it is possible, if done right. Don't blame me because George planned Asoiaf with them falling in love and being tormented about it in mind, and there is some foreshadowing in the first book because of it. Maybe he changed his mind, or maybe he just changed the way in which it would eventually unfold. I merely putbforth possible ways in which they could form a relationship that they know is obviously wrong.

Life is not a fairy tale, my friend. And when love hits you like a storm, a conflict of thw heart will rise. Lots of people obviously feel uncomfortable with the idea that Jon and Arya could become a thing. That's the point, it's not suppose to feel like some Disney movie.

The ultimate reason I wrote this essay was to show that because they are both damaged... that they are the only characters who'd truly be able to understand each other's trauma, thus they could start to heal when they reunite. And in that healing process, their familial love could be warped, unintentionally, into something akin to romantic love.

Don't just set aside my theory because it involves incest, abd incest is wrong. No one who's commented so far has even tried to disprove the facts I stated in the essay... It's telling, no?

There were no facts to disprove. Make up any theory on the spot right now, and in time I will bring you quotes and cherry pick phrases to support it. This is nothing new, everyone on these forums does this.

And don't try to turn this around on me "Oooh this isn't a Disney story". You're not fooling anyone.

I don't give a damn about incest. There are characters who are incestual and well written and have a place in the story - Lannister Twins. There is precedent and it's an interesting dynamic between these two. Arya+Jon is a fetish concocted by the fans.

"Life isn't a fairytale", he says. Life isn't a smut flick either.

xD

[Stormourne]

1 hour ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

There were no facts to disprove. Make up any theory on the spot right now, and in time I will bring you quotes and cherry pick phrases to support it. This is nothing new, everyone on these forums does this.

And don't try to turn this around on me "Oooh this isn't a Disney story". You're not fooling anyone.

I don't give a damn about incest. There are characters who are incestual and well written and have a place in the story - Lannister Twins. There is precedent and it's an interesting dynamic between these two. Arya+Jon is a fetish concocted by the fans.

"Life isn't a fairytale", he says. Life isn't a smut flick either.

xD

No one said nothing bout smut - this isn't about sex. And no, the fans did not concoct Arya and Jon out of thin air... there is a reason why people do lean towards them as developing more-than-sibling love in the future. The author wrote, only he knows how many chapters from GoT with that in mind, thus the argument can be made that there is foreshadowing in there. Whether he scrapped the whole idea is yet to be seen. But to just dismiss the possibility out of hand is not helpful to this discussion. This essay is for people to understand that if it was to happen, here was how it could happen, and still be relevant to the story. I know that he probably switched Starkcest with Lannistercest, but... until the last two books come out, there is the possibility, no? And of course I picked the best paragraphs, phrases, etc. in order to push my argument... that's common sense.

However, what annoyed me about your original comment was that you tried to deny me my right to present this theory for the fandom. And the main reason I presented this essay to the public was because other people who also share my view about Jon and Arya just write about how they will end up together, without really providing the 'Why' and the 'How. And that's what I did. I gave possible scenarios that could work in the larger scheme of things. If you really dislike what I wrote, then provide a good argument as to why it would not happen.

And not all theories are plausible. Some are downright ridicules and make no sense. Does my theory make no sense to you? If so, I welcome you to try and prove me wrong. I understand that without the source material being available yet, (Winds of Winter/Dream of spring), disproving a possible Jon/Arya relationship is (near)impossible, but at least try to make an argument where you believe it's not likely to happen at all.

I'm trying to be civilized here.

[MostlyMoody]

25 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

No one said nothing bout smut - this isn't about sex. And no, the fans did not concoct Arya and Jon out of thin air... there is a reason why people do lean towards them as developing more-than-sibling love in the future. The author wrote, only he knows how many chapters from GoT with that in mind, thus the argument can be made that there is foreshadowing in there. Whether he scrapped the whole idea is yet to be seen. But to just dismiss the possibility out of hand is not helpful to this discussion. This essay is for people to understand that if it was to happen, here was how it could happen, and still be relevant to the story. I know that he probably switched Starkcest with Lannistercest, but... until the last two books come out, there is the possibility, no? And of course I picked the best paragraphs, phrases, etc. in order to push my argument... that's common sense.

It is about a sexual relationship. I like how you assume what the author thought and what he is supposedly foreshadowing. Also Lannisters were in the story from the start. Maybe not from the very first chapter of Starks and baby wolves, but their relationship is kind of a big story element. Unlike the supposed Arya/Jon pairing.

29 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

However, what annoyed me about your original comment was that you tried to deny me my right to present this theory for the fandom. And the main reason I presented this essay to the public was because other people who also share my view about Jon and Arya just write about how they will end up together, without really providing the 'Why' and the 'How. And that's what I did. I gave possible scenarios that could work in the larger scheme of things. If you really dislike what I wrote, then provide a good argument as to why it would not happen.

I can't deny you anything. You do whatever you want and write about whatever you want. I can do the same thing. Look, I can't put this in any other way, I think this theory is a fantasy of people who have some fetish or really, really like these two characters. Here's why - there is no reason for them to be together story-wise. As you say yourself, you are trying to come up with ideas how this makeshift relationship could fit into the actual story. You are trying to make it happen and you're not interested in the Why's and How's which is why I so readily dismissed this as your fantasy. You can call me rude or whatever, but that's just how it is. I do admit I generally dislike fanfic, as it usually diminishes the actual story in my eyes and is done for selfish, wish-fulfilling reasons, which is why I don't read it. This theory struck me exactly as one of those fan-fics, except it actually isn't fanfic, its disguised as a theory, which is the problem.

36 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

And not all theories are plausible. Some are downright ridicules and make no sense. Does my theory make no sense to you? If so, I welcome you to try and prove me wrong. I understand that without the source material being available yet, (Winds of Winter/Dream of spring), disproving a possible Jon/Arya relationship is (near)impossible, but at least try to make an argument where you believe it's not likely to happen at all.

Yeah, not all theories are plausible, which is why 90% of them are wrong. As you said, until the story is over I can't "prove" what or won't happen. However, from a narrative standpoint this Jon/Arya romance is near impossible. There is no story reason for it, there is no setup (Which you will argue, but we all can go quote fishing). Granted I can be wrong and I got the completely wrong impression about the story I've read so far, and in the end George will gut-punch us all with an out of nowhere Arya/Jon incest romance as we hold our heads in confusion.

We are being civilized, we are talking over the internet and using words.

[Lady_of_the_black]

I think George changes his mind a lot while he is writing his books. I personally think he ditched that plotline, maybe because he thought people wouldn't like it, or because arya needed a stronger story. She was the black sheep of the family, she had to do something epic, not just follow around another main character. And at some point he decided cersei and jaime would be involved, and that would have been too much incest. The Starks are known for being very honorable and noble, and in grrm's world, incest will often produce violent and insane offspring.  Most of westeros frowns upon incest. If the Starks were gettin it on, it just wouldn't make sense for the story. In my opinion, it would be too conflicting for the reader.  We somewhat dislike the lannisters for their deceptions and ruthless war tactics, and they are tied very closely in our minds to incest. As is the mad king, whom us readers also dislike, because he was crazy (at least I do.) We like the Starks for their truth and valor. If they were in a incestuous relationship it would take away from the readers investment in their characters. I still think that she will be a surviving character though. 

[Lady_of_the_black]

On 5/11/2016 at 3:30 PM, zandru said:

I, too, like the idea of Jon and Arya re-uniting. This "incest" thing - as far as we know, they're cousins. This would be "incest" in 20th century USA (and apologies for bringing up my locality; I know y'all hate this), but a degree off from brother-sister marriage, which in itself is a little less incestuous than a half-brother/half-sister relationship. And remember, the Targaryens did a lot of this, with little complaint from Westerosi - and Jon is most likely a "Targ".

Also, the idea that two people who are raised together (and let's ignore the biology) should never be allowed to form romantic feelings toward one another - why?

Now, going toward the realm of wishful thinking, Jon has some major wars ahead of him. Re-taking Winterfell, and rescuing - er, the steward's daughter. Regaining the North from the Boltons. Fighting the Others/White Walkers as they come southward towards the Wall. And there will likely be some gratuituous interference from the Lannister-held Iron Throne. Jon needs to collect an army. He's got a lot of free folk who would follow him, given how his quests affect them and maybe even some gratitude that, unlike all the other Night Watch commanders, he didn't just try to exterminate them all. The North is likely to follow a Stark (and face it, Sansa is no longer a "Stark"; she's either a "Lannister" or a bastard "Littlefinger"). Jon is the only adult Stark still standing.

These Jon-led military actions could attract the attention of Little Sister. They might also bring Sandor Clegane out of retirement. Wishful thinking, I know, but maybe more likely than "Clegane Bowl".

As to why siblings and cousins shouldn't form romantic feelings for one another, at least in this world of grrms... It is known that the offspring of these unions are often insane, like very insane. And the only (I think) cousin marriage that we see in the books is joanna and tywin, and if you don't believe in a+j=t, like me, then tyrion is a product of some good old cousin lovin. Likewise, if you do believe in that theory, one of its points is that tryion may be a dwarf due to aerys long line of ancestral incest. Either way, not good. Same goes in this world. He makes it a huge point throughout the series that children born of incest are sometimes insane. Like joffrey. Or viserys. So yeah, it's crucial to the story that most people don't like it, it's for a pretty good reason. 

 

Edit: re-read and realized you said, ignore the biology. Sorry about that.

Also, westeros definitely complained about the incest. Only the targs thought it was good. Dunk thinks it's bizarre that egg talks about marrying his sisters like it's common place. And tywin and joanna tried to keep cersei and jaime from doing it, they caught them once when they were young. Tywin is disgusted when cersei tells him about her and jaime. And even some targ kings thought it was wrong, and tried to marry their offspring to other houses. The people in westeros didn't like incest, because when the king is the offspring of siblings, there is a pretty good chance of having an insane ruler, who screws everything up. So I totally disagree. The people hated it, it wasn't seen as good, ever. It's obvious in the books. 

[Sensenmenn]

24 minutes ago, Lady_of_the_black said:

As to why siblings and cousins shouldn't form romantic feelings for one another, at least in this world of grrms... It is known that the offspring of these unions are often insane, like very insane. And the only (I think) cousin marriage that we see in the books is joanna and tywin, and if you don't believe in a+j=t, like me, then tyrion is a product of some good old cousin lovin. Likewise, if you do believe in that theory, one of its points is that tryion may be a dwarf due to aerys long line of ancestral incest. Either way, not good. Same goes in this world. He makes it a huge point throughout the series that children born of incest are sometimes insane. Like joffrey. Or viserys. So yeah, it's crucial to the story that most people don't like it, it's for a pretty good reason. 

 

Edit: re-read and realized you said, ignore the biology. Sorry about that.

Neds parents where cousins yet he and his children weren't insane!

[Lady_of_the_black]

7 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Neds parents where cousins yet he and his children weren't insane!

It's not always, and cousins seem to sometimes produce dwarves, not madness. It seems like about 1 out of 3 children will be afflicted. Besides, the wiki says they were cousin once removed, which means rickard was her cousin's offspring. Not the same as true cousins! 

[Lady_of_the_black]

On 5/19/2016 at 2:29 AM, Lemore said:

Jon and Arya as a couple is so disturbing :/ Besides the fact that she's still a kid, they've been raised as brother and sister

I totally agree with you, and it's kinda freaky all the people that think it's good. George s whole point of having the incest, is to show parallels. The war of the roses happened in our world, and because of it we learned that incest is bad, it produces messed up children. Even between first cousins..

So his whole point is DON'T keep it in the family. The targs go crazy, joanna and tywin (first cousins) produce a dwarf, and then there's joffrey. There's no denying, George doesn't think incest is good! Everything he has told us about incest, shows us that it's really bad! I think he scrapped the jon/arya romance, it was a terrible plotline anyways. It would have ruined the story.

[Lady_of_the_black]

On 5/19/2016 at 3:09 AM, Joan Jett said:

The seven kingdoms. It was in one of the posts I quoted saying that I agree. 

Heres some AGOT foreshadowing:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon." - Ned V

 

I don't think we should take all the random quotes so seriously.. prophecies maybe, green dreams, perhaps, but not this quote. Especially since, we know arya. Would she be happy with that life? Probably not.. that's not where her path is headed, I don't think. I've seen a lot of people who think these books will end with a stark in power of the seven kingdoms.. I really don't see that happening. It's way to easy and obvious. It's not George's style. I think the Starks will suffer very much, they may even all die. Maybe arya or jon or rickon will be warden of the north, but I really believe that's it. This story isn't a happy fantasy, that much is obvious. In the end, we the readers will probably be very satisfied. But the main characters will probably never reach their goals of happiness. It will never be the way it was, for any of them.

[Lady_of_the_black]

On 5/19/2016 at 3:09 AM, Joan Jett said:

On 5/19/2016 at 7:00 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

 

On 5/19/2016 at 6:17 AM, Joan Jett said:

Yes they had dragons, but the rest of their line still converted to the faith in order to be accepted as rulers.

Like I said it would be bittersweet if Jon and Arya converted to the faith of the seven

 

How could they possibly? They are wargs, and I'm pretty certain their storylines will involve them learning and honing these abilities. They probably wouldn't convert to the faith if they knew about warging and weirwood nets. 

Also, the old gods were worshipped in westeros for as long as anyone can remember, it was the faith of the seven that invaded and took over as a religion. I can't imagine grrm writing his two black sheep main characters converting to this common religion. No freakin way. Jon took his vows in front of the heart tree.. and can you seriously imagine arya converting? I really, really can't. She has always been head strong and proud of her house. She would not easily give into the new gods, when her father who was beheaded worshipped the old gods, and her house has always worshipped them too. 

 

Here's a cool thought tho.. Maybe grrm will make the arya and jon plotline come to fruition in a different way. Like maybe they will get good at warging, and meet up as nymeria and ghost. Maybe they will have a litter or two. Just an idea!

[Stormourne]

4 hours ago, Lady_of_the_black said:

How could they possibly? They are wargs, and I'm pretty certain their storylines will involve them learning and honing these abilities. They probably wouldn't convert to the faith if they knew about warging and weirwood nets. 

Also, the old gods were worshipped in westeros for as long as anyone can remember, it was the faith of the seven that invaded and took over as a religion. I can't imagine grrm writing his two black sheep main characters converting to this common religion. No freakin way. Jon took his vows in front of the heart tree.. and can you seriously imagine arya converting? I really, really can't. She has always been head strong and proud of her house. She would not easily give into the new gods, when her father who was beheaded worshipped the old gods, and her house has always worshipped them too. 

 

Here's a cool thought tho.. Maybe grrm will make the arya and jon plotline come to fruition in a different way. Like maybe they will get good at warging, and meet up as nymeria and ghost. Maybe they will have a litter or two. Just an idea!

At this point, I just want a Jon and Arya reunion. Whatever happens after (well, not whatever), I will be pleased. The reason I wrote this essay was to just provide some backround on why and how such a relationship could happen in the books. I see people arguing that Arya and Jon could end up together, but they never provide a good reason for it. Aside from they have such a strong bond, etc. And of course, the original manuscript. The reason I wouldn't mind seeing them fall in love (and of course, deal with the aftermath-the wrongness of it-etc) is because I can see them healing each other's emotional wounds. That's not say that they can't heal each other just through this type of relationship. Fuck, I just want them to reunite. I'll leave whatever happens afterwards in George's hands.

[Joan Jett]

7 hours ago, Lady_of_the_black said:

I don't think we should take all the random quotes so seriously.. prophecies maybe, green dreams, perhaps, but not this quote. Especially since, we know arya. Would she be happy with that life? Probably not.. that's not where her path is headed, I don't think. I've seen a lot of people who think these books will end with a stark in power of the seven kingdoms.. I really don't see that happening. It's way to easy and obvious. It's not George's style. I think the Starks will suffer very much, they may even all die. Maybe arya or jon or rickon will be warden of the north, but I really believe that's it. This story isn't a happy fantasy, that much is obvious. In the end, we the readers will probably be very satisfied. But the main characters will probably never reach their goals of happiness. It will never be the way it was, for any of them.

This is such a narrow minded response...lol. You know that GRRM puts foreshadowing in dialogue too right? Not just the obvious prophecies. Earlier in AGOT Ned also calls himself "father to queens". Even the quote itself is strange. But I guess all foreshadowing in the books is only ever in prophecies. Right. /s

Just so you know, the original title of the last book was going to be "A Time for Wolves". GRRM thought it gave too much away so he changed it to ADOS. So yeah I expect that they will have some kind of comeuppance, especially with Jojen's words, "the wolves wil come again."

Ok....first you say "Arya wouldn't be happy with that life..." then you bring up all this "happy fantasy" talk about her reaching her goal of happiness. Which is it? 

Arya becoming Queen doesn't mean that she would reach her goal of happiness. It doesn't mean that she will forget all of her trauma and hardships. GRRM has already made it clear that ruling isn't easy for anyone. Really not sure where you're getting all this "happy" stuff. Becoming Queen is not the ultimate happines. That's the stuff of fairytales and your perception of ruling, not GRRM's. 

Also you say that "easy and predictable" isn't GRRM's style, but would Arya becoming Queen of the Seven Kingdoms be predictable? No! Like you said, we know her, she's a tomboy and we assume that she wouldn't want that life and that she will die in a ditch somewhere anyway. So going by your definition of GRRM's style, Queen Arya is in the cards. 

[Joan Jett]

Basically this person is saying, "I don't like this idea! I can't imagine it, so it's simply never going to happen." 

Wouldnt be the first time in a thread like this....

[Joan Jett]

On June 7, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Rupert Honeybun said:

It is about a sexual relationship. I like how you assume what the author thought and what he is supposedly foreshadowing. Also Lannisters were in the story from the start. Maybe not from the very first chapter of Starks and baby wolves, but their relationship is kind of a big story element. Unlike the supposed Arya/Jon pairing.

I can't deny you anything. You do whatever you want and write about whatever you want. I can do the same thing. Look, I can't put this in any other way, I think this theory is a fantasy of people who have some fetish or really, really like these two characters. Here's why - there is no reason for them to be together story-wise. As you say yourself, you are trying to come up with ideas how this makeshift relationship could fit into the actual story. You are trying to make it happen and you're not interested in the Why's and How's which is why I so readily dismissed this as your fantasy. You can call me rude or whatever, but that's just how it is. I do admit I generally dislike fanfic, as it usually diminishes the actual story in my eyes and is done for selfish, wish-fulfilling reasons, which is why I don't read it. This theory struck me exactly as one of those fan-fics, except it actually isn't fanfic, its disguised as a theory, which is the problem.

Yeah, not all theories are plausible, which is why 90% of them are wrong. As you said, until the story is over I can't "prove" what or won't happen. However, from a narrative standpoint this Jon/Arya romance is near impossible. There is no story reason for it, there is no setup (Which you will argue, but we all can go quote fishing). Granted I can be wrong and I got the completely wrong impression about the story I've read so far, and in the end George will gut-punch us all with an out of nowhere Arya/Jon incest romance as we hold our heads in confusion.

We are being civilized, we are talking over the internet and using words.

Except it would be out of nowhere since there's a bunch of foreshadowing for it. There is set up. Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it's not there. 

Jon and Arya's relationship is important, romantic or not. They are probably the two POV characters that think about each other the most. GRRM has emphasized the relationship over and over again throughout the series. There are multiple parallels between them, parallel quotes even. Arya has been wanting to go to the Wall, to Jon, since the very beginning and she still does. She defied her FM duties because of him. Jon died trying to save her with his last thought being "Stick em with the pointy end".

Also since you brought up the twins it's important to note that Jon&Arya actually have parallels with Jaime&Cersei. I hardly think those were by accident.

[Joan Jett]

On June 3, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Smoke317 said:

And does anyone remember what book and chapter it was that said Nymeria wouldn't let other wolves mount her?

Brienne V, AFFC

"Some will tell you that they are demons. They say the pack is led by a monstrous she-wolf, a stalking shadow grim and grey and huge. They will tell you that she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself, that no trap nor snare can hold her, that she fears neither steel nor fire, slays any wolf that tries to mount her, and devours no other flesh but man."

On June 4, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Pixnik said:

They are not worthy of her. She picked out her Alpha in Game of Thrones.

 

Yep  

Ghost is perfect for Nymeria, can't wait for them to have some puppies. 

[MostlyMoody]

23 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Except it would be out of nowhere since there's a bunch of foreshadowing for it. There is set up. Just because you don't want to see it doesn't mean it's not there. 

Oh there is setup? Well shit you got me, I give up.

There's no way they love each other like siblings, it must be romantic, you're so right.

28 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Jon and Arya's relationship is important, romantic or not. They are probably the two POV characters that think about each other the most. GRRM has emphasized the relationship over and over again throughout the series. There are multiple parallels between them, parallel quotes even. Arya has been wanting to go to the Wall, to Jon, since the very beginning and she still does. Jon died trying to save her with his last thought being "Stick em with the pointy end".

I agree, it is important, Arya and Jon were obviously closer than any other Stark kids were with Jon. I definitely don't believe the whole "think about each other the most", but that's kind of a moot point unless someone goes and actually counts all the times. Arya wants many things, and I'd put vengeance on top of that list. "Stick them with the pointy end" couldn't possibly have anything to do with pointy daggers being sticked into Jon?

33 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Also since you brought up the twins it's important to note that Jon&Arya actually have parallels with Jaime&Cersei. I hardly think those were by accident.

Do tell.

15 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Yep  

Ghost is perfect for Nymeria, can't wait for them to have some puppies. 

It wasn't enough with the underage sister/brother romance, now we gotta mix wolves in this? Where does it stop?

 

xD

[Pixnik]

Its there from the start way back in Games and was there in Dance. If you skipped it or ignored it because 
eww gross" feelings then that is on you. Its going to happen. Arya and Jon will not be diminished because of it. Its what Arya has been searching for.