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Why Jon/Arya could work in the Books. I'll explain in a quick Essay!


Stormourne

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16 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

No it cannot work.

Jon will never see Arya as anything but his little sister, no matter that she's his cousin.The Sansa thing is already more plausible even though I still think it's dumb as fk, GRRM won't go the incest way with his protagonists and to be honest I doubt Jon Snow will end up with anyone.When you think about it there is no room for Jon Snow in the Stark House (Bran,Rickon have better claims and Jon wouldn't want to take Winterfell with Sansa and Arya alive), there's very little chance he ends up on the throne because of Aegon and Dany, so what's left for him?

GRRM won't go the Show way, I think Jon won't leave the Nightwatch til the Walkers are totally exterminated and from there it's even possible he keeps guarding the wall in case anything wrong happen.

No romance for Jon Snow, no land or lord title imo.

Your argument for why they wouldn't work is nonexistent, friend. And with an argument that weak, you won't be convincing anyone about your point of view... You lost me when you said "the Sansa thing is already more plausible..." Also, Jon leaving the Wall is the only hope the realm has. The Night's Watch are going to get everyone killed because of their ignorance towards the Wildlings. In order to repel and defeat the White Walkers. The North has to be united, under one banner, one sword, one army. I think you are underestimating Jon Snow's role in the coming war.

If you've read my essay, you'll know that I only argue for the possibility, and how it could work in favor of the narrative. And the possibility exists. I mean, if the author of the novels first started writing said novels with the idea that Jon and Arya would fall in love and be tormented about their incestuous feelings until his true parentage is revealed... it's telling, no? Also, a counter argument could be made that George just switched that incestuous relationship over towards the Lannisters. And that makes sense. But, since he actually thought about writing about Starkcest, the possibility for it happening is there. The argument could also be made that George added foreshadowing in the first novel towards a Jon/Arya ending. And he could always revisit that if he chooses to go ahead with that pairing.

So, tell me again that the possibility doesn't exist, and this time, provide some plausible evidence.

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1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Also, Jon leaving the Wall is the only hope the realm has. The Night's Watch are going to get everyone killed because of their ignorance towards the Wildlings. In order to repel and defeat the White Walkers. The North has to be united, under one banner, one sword, one army. I think you are underestimating Jon Snow's role in the coming war.

Can you get us some proof for those statements? With an argument that weak, you won't be convincing anyone about your point of view.

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

I mean, if the author of the novels first started writing said novels with the idea that Jon and Arya would fall in love and be tormented about their incestuous feelings until his true parentage is revealed... it's telling, no?

It's telling of how strangely you interpret their relationship.

1 hour ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

So, tell me again that the possibility doesn't exist, and this time, provide some plausible evidence.

The possibility exists for anything. Hotpie could be Robert's bastard, get legitimized and become King. There is no direct evidence against it, because Jon and Arya thinking about each other is a familial love, but you interpret it as erotic love. What evidence would convince you? Nothing short of books ending without your theory coming true, but even that probably won't stop it.

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28 minutes ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

Can you get us some proof for those statements? With an argument that weak, you won't be convincing anyone about your point of view.

It's telling of how strangely you interpret their relationship.

The possibility exists for anything. Hotpie could be Robert's bastard, get legitimized and become King. There is no direct evidence against it, because Jon and Arya thinking about each other is a familial love, but you interpret it as erotic love. What evidence would convince you? Nothing short of books ending without your theory coming true, but even that probably won't stop it.

You seem to have the wrong impression here. No one is arguing that they have any erotic desires for one another... which wouldn't make sense narrative-wise at the moment. What I'm arguing is that there is a possibility that in the last two books, their relationship could turn romantic/erotic. I had stated how/why in the essay.

And as for why Jon will become important in the fight against the White Walkers. There is foreshadowing that I can't be bothered digging up. From memory, he dreams about wielding a flaming sword, which could foreshadow Lightbringer. Melisandre only sees Snow in her visions during book 5. And there's R+L=J theory, which if true could mean Jon is fire+ice. Dragon and wolf, etc. Could play a role in the future right against the White Walkers when/if Dany shows up. And Jon be revived by the Fire God has to have some purpose... do you not agree? Or are you gonna stand there and tell me he won't be resurrected? Or that his resurrection has no significance to the plot regarding the White Walkers?

And it's not strange how I interpret "the possibility" of where their relationship could go. As I've stated, if the author thought about said idea (Jon+Arya=incest) when creating Asoiaf... do I really need to explain this again? This is not some crack-pot theory.

Here read through this and tell me that George doesn't emphasis their relationship - much more than any other in the books (when I say the possibility exists, I mean that the foundation is there for their relationship to evolve in the future - and I've already written in the essay about the why/how). Because it makes sense that if George began writing the first novel with Jon/Arya in mind, wouldn't there be foreshadowing regarding the outcome of such a relationship? Sure, he might have scrapped the idea, but at what point? After or before he published AGOT? Oh, and what's more plausible, Hot Pie being Robert's bastard, or Jon/Arya happening?

 

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I am going to save this thread so when Winds of Winter come and we see MORE Jon/Arya romantic undertones, I can revisit this and said to everyone who dispels the POTENTIAL of that relationship "I TOLD YOU SO".

There's been several meta's about their closeness already. The author wasnt saying RIGHT NOW they have romantic feelings with each other but that the premise is there, the tone is set, the foreshadowing. NO, I dont believe its coincidence that Arya and Jon thought about each other COMPARED TO THEIR OTHER SIBLINGS the most. It could be familial, but it could also be more. To say that its just impossible that it could be more is pointless when the Author himself showed that possibility.

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50 minutes ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

You seem to have the wrong impression here. No one is arguing that they have any erotic desires for one another... which wouldn't make sense narrative-wise at the moment. What I'm arguing is that there is a possibility that in the last two books, their relationship could turn romantic/erotic. I had stated how/why in the essay.

And as for why Jon will become important in the fight against the White Walkers. There is foreshadowing that I can't be bothered digging up. From memory, he dreams about wielding a flaming sword, which could foreshadow Lightbringer. Melisandre only sees Snow in her visions during book 5. And there's R+L=J theory, which if true could mean Jon is fire+ice. Dragon and wolf, etc. Could play a role in the future right against the White Walkers when/if Dany shows up. And Jon be revived by the Fire God has to have some purpose... do you not agree? Or are you gonna stand there and tell me he won't be resurrected? Or that his resurrection has no significance to the plot regarding the White Walkers?

And it's not strange how I interpret "the possibility" of where their relationship could go. As I've stated, if the author thought about said idea (Jon+Arya=incest) when creating Asoiaf... do I really need to explain this again? This is not some crack-pot theory.

Here read through this and tell me that George doesn't emphasis their relationship - much more than any other in the books (when I say the possibility exists, I mean that the foundation is there for their relationship to evolve in the future - and I've already written in the essay about the why/how). Because it makes sense that if George began writing the first novel with Jon/Arya in mind, wouldn't there be foreshadowing regarding the outcome of such a relationship? Sure, he might have scrapped the idea, but at what point? After or before he published AGOT? Oh, and what's more plausible, Hot Pie being Robert's bastard, or Jon/Arya happening?

I know what you're saying, they "might" develop romantic feelings for one another, but currently the relationship is familial love. That is what I am arguing against. xD

Yeah, he is integral to the fight against the White Walkers and he will most likely be resurrected. However, he won't go south, he won't become a king or prince that was promised or anything like that. His death and resurrection will change him much like Berric is changed, he will lose a part of him and most likely won't have any romantic relationships until the very end. That is my speculation, you have your own so I don't really care to argue about that. 

I've seen George's pitch before, thank you. This is a crack-pot theory. Same as if we were to argue Arya and Tyrion will fall in love, or Sansa is pregnant with Joffrey's child and Danny killed Drogo to avenge her brother - which are all plot-points presented in the original pitch of the trilogy. So explain to me again, please, I am a little dim.

I'd say with Roberts virility, it's more possible that Hotpie is his son, yes.

 

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15 minutes ago, meowskii said:

I am going to save this thread so when Winds of Winter come and we see MORE Jon/Arya romantic undertones, I can revisit this and said to everyone who dispels the POTENTIAL of that relationship "I TOLD YOU SO".

Will you also come back here if you were wrong? I doubt it.

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36 minutes ago, Rupert Honeybun said:

I know what you're saying, they "might" develop romantic feelings for one another, but currently the relationship is familial love. That is what I am arguing against. xD

Yeah, he is integral to the fight against the White Walkers and he will most likely be resurrected. However, he won't go south, he won't become a king or prince that was promised or anything like that. His death and resurrection will change him much like Berric is changed, he will lose a part of him and most likely won't have any romantic relationships until the very end. That is my speculation, you have your own so I don't really care to argue about that. 

I've seen George's pitch before, thank you. This is a crack-pot theory. Same as if we were to argue Arya and Tyrion will fall in love, or Sansa is pregnant with Joffrey's child and Danny killed Drogo to avenge her brother - which are all plot-points presented in the original pitch of the trilogy. So explain to me again, please, I am a little dim.

I'd say with Roberts virility, it's more possible that Hotpie is his son, yes.

 

But... we weren't arguing that they have any romantic feelings as of book five :P And I'm aware that George most likely switched the Starkcest over to the Lannisters. Which makes sense. But, regardless, I do think Jon and Arya could develop incestuous feelings if it is done right. And knowing George, if he wanted to do it, he'd do it. And I'm aware that certain parts of the original outline were redacted, which means those points are probably still in play. So the unredacted parts are probably not redacted since those plot points are scrapped (correct me if I'm wrong about the redaction - been over a year since I read the outline.). I'm not trying to be ignorant here, about Arya/Jon. I hope you understand that. With this essay, I merely wrote the how and the why, insofar as a possible Jon/Arya relationship Unfolding in the future.

It's fifty-fifty for me. Could happen, and could not. I'm open to both options. I ultimately blame George for desensitisating me about the issue of incest :/ Oh, god. I actually prefer forbidden love over normal love now, in my fiction, of course. :)

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1 hour ago, meowskii said:

I am going to save this thread so when Winds of Winter come and we see MORE Jon/Arya romantic undertones, I can revisit this and said to everyone who dispels the POTENTIAL of that relationship "I TOLD YOU SO".

There's been several meta's about their closeness already. The author wasnt saying RIGHT NOW they have romantic feelings with each other but that the premise is there, the tone is set, the foreshadowing. NO, I dont believe its coincidence that Arya and Jon thought about each other COMPARED TO THEIR OTHER SIBLINGS the most. It could be familial, but it could also be more. To say that its just impossible that it could be more is pointless when the Author himself showed that possibility.

One thing to keep in mind is that there is no romantic undertone between Jon and Arya in the novels thus far. There is, however, lots of foreshadowing between them that form a kind of foundation for a future possible relationship between the two. That's my ultimate argument. Like I said in the essay, they could develop incestuous feelings because of the (would you call it similar?) trauma they've experienced. :) And like you, I do hope that comes to pass. At this point it feels natural to me... which makes me question myself, insofar as if this is how religious people feel towards their belief in a higher power. Random, but true! Have a good day, fellow soldier in this Jonrya army of mine!

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On 5/12/2016 at 6:59 AM, The Bear said:

If they hooked up when they were significantly older I could possibly accept it, but it would honestly ruin their incredible relationship for me. I love their brother-sister bond and I don't want to see that morph into romantic love. To me, their dynamic where they believe they're half-siblings and unconditionally love and accept one another is touching and meaningful. A romantic relationship is less interesting to me.

What really bothers me, though, is Arya's age rather than her blood ties to Jon. Cersei and Jaime are the same age. Targs married siblings and cousins but they didn't really do the child bride thing. Unless the book skips forward in time significantly, any relationship between Jon and Arya  would be unforgivably gross in my eyes. It would ruin Jon for me forever if he were attracted to his pre-pubescent half-sister.
A 14 year old with a 19 year old in the ASOIAF universe isn't really an issue since 14 year olds are essentially adults, but at their current ages or even a couple of years older is just too young for me to accept, even in the context of the world. Some people want to see them get together at this point in the books and I'll never understand that. To each their own, I suppose.

:agree:

I really don't see how GRRM can develop a romance between Jon and Arya in the current timeline, with only two books left. With the 5 year gap, it could have worked. In that case, Arya would be a young women when she meets Jon again, rather than a girl barely grazing puberty. 

Added with the "little sister" stigma, the young age of Arya would mark any attraction Jon has to her as not okay. The fact that she also idolizes him, puts power in Jon's hands, allowing him to take advantage of that. He would be the adult and her the child. It would be unhealthy. 

In the original plan, Arya and Jon also spent more time together. Most of their story consists of battling their feelings for each other, allowing the romance to develop, rather than taking a U-turn. In the books, Jon and Arya still have much to do before reuniting and I doubt their stories will be explicitly tied to each other when they do. 

Their relationship is so pure. I would hate to see it tainted with incest. I don't care if they are really cousins, they constantly think of each other as brother and "little sister." It would still be mental sibling incest, if not actual blood incest. 

I really hope GRRM doesn't take this path, it would be one incest too many in my opinion. It is at a Jaime/Cersei level of creepy incest, rather than a Dany/Jon, or to a lesser extent Jon/Sansa, due to the age difference and close relationship they share as siblings. 

Each to their own, though. Everyone has their own interpretations and it is fiction after all. I won't shame anyone for rooting for this. I just really can't, unless Arya is older. 

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4 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

No one said he wants to fuck her. We're not even arguing that they even have romantic feelings for one another at the moment. What were saying is that the foundation for a possible relationship to develop is there. You don't have to like it, but the possibility exists. And whether or not George got rid of the whole Jon/Arya plotline from his early outline, you can't deny that since we know for fact that George created Asoiaf with them falling in love in mind, the possibility for it to still happen exists.

Being uncomfortable about it is not an argument against it...

Sure, possibility exists for a relationship between Arya and Jon, but anything's possible, so that's not saying much.

Jon&Arya weren't set up as potential lovers, and they've had no chance to develop romantic feelings thanks to GRRM's keeping them apart for five books. He will probably keep them apart longer. I don't see Arya reaching the Wall until the end of Winds, at best.

Arya will be twelve or thirteen when (if) she gets to meet Jon. I agree that this is an age of marriage for Westerosi girls, but in GRRM's world such things have so far been arranged marriages. There's no need for an arranged marriage between Jon and Arya, as it them gains them nothing. So they must fall in love, but neither seems interested in much younger or older people. Arya has no interest in sex or romance, and Jon's so far been interested in sexually experienced women his age or older (Ygritte, Val). His breaking pattern for his thirteen year old sister is, sure, possible. It's also possible that a herd of rainbow unicorns from Skaagos will kill all the Walkers.

Then there's Arya's emotional state. She is traumatized. Maybe reuniting with family, fighting for her family will heal her to a degree. "Romantic love heals all" is not something GRRM's even remotely hinted at with Arya, and I'd be disappointed if he went that route for her, not only with Jon, but with anyone. It's too hackneyed.

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9 hours ago, kimim said:

Sure, possibility exists for a relationship between Arya and Jon, but anything's possible, so that's not saying much.

Jon&Arya weren't set up as potential lovers, and they've had no chance to develop romantic feelings thanks to GRRM's keeping them apart for five books. He will probably keep them apart longer. I don't see Arya reaching the Wall until the end of Winds, at best.

Arya will be twelve or thirteen when (if) she gets to meet Jon. I agree that this is an age of marriage for Westerosi girls, but in GRRM's world such things have so far been arranged marriages. There's no need for an arranged marriage between Jon and Arya, as it them gains them nothing. So they must fall in love, but neither seems interested in much younger or older people. Arya has no interest in sex or romance, and Jon's so far been interested in sexually experienced women his age or older (Ygritte, Val). His breaking pattern for his thirteen year old sister is, sure, possible. It's also possible that a herd of rainbow unicorns from Skaagos will kill all the Walkers.

Then there's Arya's emotional state. She is traumatized. Maybe reuniting with family, fighting for her family will heal her to a degree. "Romantic love heals all" is not something GRRM's even remotely hinted at with Arya, and I'd be disappointed if he went that route for her, not only with Jon, but with anyone. It's too hackneyed.

One could make a counter argument and say because they've been separated for so long, coupled with their traumatic experiences, that when they do reunite, those familial bonds they'd forged since forever could be warped (Arya's emotional state at the moment is heartbreaking), and develop into some less-than-innocent. Does Arya know feeling love feels like anymore? There is always room for her to regain those emotions she buries so deep. I merely stated that because of these things that the possibility of them developing incestuous feelings exists. And no, not everything is possible in Asoiaf. I've already explained "how" it could happen in the essay. I'm not arguing that it "is" going to happen. The foundation is there if George decides to go down that route. And knowing him, if he does, the story will not lose it's narrative power, and it will be significant to the story as a whole. Also, other people in other forums have already mentioned this, but Jon does seem to compare Arya to all his love-interests in the books, which is either nothing or something. Take it how you want. Also, the relationship I envision is not one that is healthy per se, nor one that "Romantic love heals all" type trope. Would they not be tormented? They would know it's wrong, obviously, and there lay the drama. ^^

You don't have to like the idea, but have an open mind, yes? :D The only reason we feel like it could happen is because of how George wrote them in the books - I, personally felt like it could happen before the early manuscript for Asoiaf was leaked; after that leak, it made sense to me why I felt such a strong connection between those two characters. Sure, there is no romantic undertones between them at the moment, which  make senses. They did grow up as siblings.

As I've stated earlier, I do think George may have switched Jon/Arya incest with Jamie/Lannister incest. But, one thing we have to keep in mind is that the Lannister incest was mentioned early in the first novel. Which means that if George did scrap his original plan for Jon/Arya falling in love, it must have been before the release of the first novel. We won't know until the final two books are released, though. If George did scrap the Jon/Arya once he realized that the five-year-jump wouldn't work, that means he planned to have incestuous relationship in both noble houses. So, arguably, that would mean that he wanted incest in both houses, which would contrast nicely. The Lannisters are seen as "bad" while the Starks are all "honorable."

Why am I desensitized about incest in fiction... I don't even know anymore.

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10 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

:agree:

I really don't see how GRRM can develop a romance between Jon and Arya in the current timeline, with only two books left. With the 5 year gap, it could have worked. In that case, Arya would be a young women when she meets Jon again, rather than a girl barely grazing puberty. 

Added with the "little sister" stigma, the young age of Arya would mark any attraction Jon has to her as not okay. The fact that she also idolizes him, puts power in Jon's hands, allowing him to take advantage of that. He would be the adult and her the child. It would be unhealthy. 

In the original plan, Arya and Jon also spent more time together. Most of their story consists of battling their feelings for each other, allowing the romance to develop, rather than taking a U-turn. In the books, Jon and Arya still have much to do before reuniting and I doubt their stories will be explicitly tied to each other when they do. 

Their relationship is so pure. I would hate to see it tainted with incest. I don't care if they are really cousins, they constantly think of each other as brother and "little sister." It would still be mental sibling incest, if not actual blood incest. 

I really hope GRRM doesn't take this path, it would be one incest too many in my opinion. It is at a Jaime/Cersei level of creepy incest, rather than a Dany/Jon, or to a lesser extent Jon/Sansa, due to the age difference and close relationship they share as siblings. 

Each to their own, though. Everyone has their own interpretations and it is fiction after all. I won't shame anyone for rooting for this. I just really can't, unless Arya is older. 

One question, do you ship her with Gendry? If so, then if age is an issue for Jon and Arya in your eyes, then the same should apply to Gendry. Also, I'd like to know what your thoughts are on Arya's narrative journey in the last two books? Do you think she'll make it back home, and reunite with her family, or avenge them? :D I'm curious.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just had a thought. After the season six, it really seems they will be pushing a Jon and Dany political marriage. It makes sense, with the looming threat of the Night's King and whatnot. But that does not necessarily mean it will be a marriage of love.

Could Jon not marry Daenerys in order to unify the realm in order to defeat the White Walkers while also falling in love with Arya. What if Arya returns to Winterfell while still donning a disguise, and doesn't reveal herself for some reason, then Jon sees her and is strangely attracted to this random person. How Arya would return said feelings would be up for debate.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On July 2, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Dawn of Fyre said:

I just had a thought. After the season six, it really seems they will be pushing a Jon and Dany political marriage. It makes sense, with the looming threat of the Night's King and whatnot. But that does not necessarily mean it will be a marriage of love.

Could Jon not marry Daenerys in order to unify the realm in order to defeat the White Walkers while also falling in love with Arya. What if Arya returns to Winterfell while still donning a disguise, and doesn't reveal herself for some reason, then Jon sees her and is strangely attracted to this random person. How Arya would return said feelings would be up for debate.

I have to ask you one thing - do you see Jon surviving the series? Because I am of the opinion that both Dany and Jon will die, and Tyrion and Sansa will be ruling the new Westeros when it is all said and done in the name of Eddard Stark, a kid of Jon and Dany. But that is a long essay on its own.

I want to know what you think will happen if Jon and Arya DO hook up: is it happily ever after, or one of them dies, or smth else? Because if they ARE romantically involved in next two books, there gotta be an endgame, right?

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10 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I have to ask you one thing - do you see Jon surviving the series? Because I am of the opinion that both Dany and Jon will die, and Tyrion and Sansa will be ruling the new Westeros when it is all said and done in the name of Eddard Stark, a kid of Jon and Dany. But that is a long essay on its own.

I want to know what you think will happen if Jon and Arya DO hook up: is it happily ever after, or one of them dies, or smth else? Because if they ARE romantically involved in next two books, there gotta be an endgame, right?

Sansa somehow falling in love with Tyrion would never happen, I think. For one, book Tyrion is really described as being hideous, deformed, etc. Not someone who'd ever be appealing to the eye. And not to mention he is a Lannister, whose family killed Sansa's family. I can't think of a situation were they would meet up and he'd nicely explain how he'd had no part in the murder of the Starks. And even then, how could she just switch off her hate and disgust for the Lannisters? I just can't see it happening. It's foolish to think that Sansa could just not give to fucks about his Appearance, drinking problem, and obvious love for his first wife who he also raped because he father made him do it.

Moving on: We know that the ending will be bittersweet. But people make the wrong assumption and believe that each and every character will explain this 'bitter-sweetness;' Some characters will win, some will lose, some will win and lose. Three categories. As I've written before, I think it possible that Jon and Dany might form a pack through a marriage of convenience. And when Arya does return to them, she might be wearing a mask, and Jon might become sexually attractive to her guise. And before he figures out who she truly is, what if he falls in love? The real drama begins afterwards. He is honorable, and being married to one women, and falling in love with another will torment him. Also, this could be symbolic of the whole Lyanna & Rhaegar affair.

I do want Arya and Jon to fall in love. But more than that, I want it to be realistic, and actually important for the endgame. If Daenarys does die, and Jon has to take a new wife to be his queen. Depending on the situation, Arya could be a way to fully unify the North and South. There are to many different scenarios that could play out that this is all just speculation.

I just want some drama between Jon and Arya. I would even be satisfied if they start to develop romantic feelings, but one dies and the other is left heart broken.

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15 hours ago, Dawn of Fyre said:

Sansa somehow falling in love with Tyrion would never happen, I think. For one, book Tyrion is really described as being hideous, deformed, etc. Not someone who'd ever be appealing to the eye. And not to mention he is a Lannister, whose family killed Sansa's family. I can't think of a situation were they would meet up and he'd nicely explain how he'd had no part in the murder of the Starks. And even then, how could she just switch off her hate and disgust for the Lannisters? I just can't see it happening. It's foolish to think that Sansa could just not give to fucks about his Appearance, drinking problem, and obvious love for his first wife who he also raped because he father made him do it.

Moving on: We know that the ending will be bittersweet. But people make the wrong assumption and believe that each and every character will explain this 'bitter-sweetness;' Some characters will win, some will lose, some will win and lose. Three categories. As I've written before, I think it possible that Jon and Dany might form a pack through a marriage of convenience. And when Arya does return to them, she might be wearing a mask, and Jon might become sexually attractive to her guise. And before he figures out who she truly is, what if he falls in love? The real drama begins afterwards. He is honorable, and being married to one women, and falling in love with another will torment him. Also, this could be symbolic of the whole Lyanna & Rhaegar affair.

I do want Arya and Jon to fall in love. But more than that, I want it to be realistic, and actually important for the endgame. If Daenarys does die, and Jon has to take a new wife to be his queen. Depending on the situation, Arya could be a way to fully unify the North and South. There are to many different scenarios that could play out that this is all just speculation.

I just want some drama between Jon and Arya. I would even be satisfied if they start to develop romantic feelings, but one dies and the other is left heart broken.

Oh, I never said that Tyrion and Sansa will fall in love or something like that. Their marriage will be purely political, they will have no kids of their own - little Ned, like I suggested, and Jaime and Brienne's twins - a boy and a girl. After all, the realm will not be whole and united if Starks and Lannisters are at each other's throats. If "lion" and "wolf" work towards one common goal, then the realms might have hope for better days after Long Night.

Tyrion will be the new Prime Minister/Chancellor of the new realm, while Sansa rules as Queen Regent in little Ned's name. Tyrion will mirror his father Tywin with three adopted kids, while Sansa will be a mother to them to parallel Catelyn's relationship with Jon. But that is just a theory I have.

I see what you have in mind for Jon and Arya. I will not say I am a big supporter of Jon/Arya ship, but if it is done tastefully and not rushed like you propose, then I might give it a shot. But it will be very hard to achieve, I am skeptical.

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  • 6 months later...

This has been a very interesting discussion. I just came across it tonight and thought some interesting points have been raised. Thanks to @Dawn of Fyre for posting on a subject that is taboo.

It does seem like in the books, all of the published ASOIAF series, that there is a strong connection between Arya and Jon. They are the siblings that seem most connected to one another. Of course, this can only be because that is what GRRM intended for these characters. 

GRRM is not a author who is worried, or shies away from, making his audience uncomfortable, or pushing the boundaries of what is considered acceptable behavior. So every time I see a response from someone who states, "well, I know he did that, but he would never do that, because it's just really too much", I laugh inside. Sometimes I laugh out loud! There isn't many lines in the sand he is not willing to cross. Some times it's hysterical laughter, because GRRM has hurt me with his story telling. and I shy from the pain!

I think the OP does a great job of showing how Jon and Arya both will be very different people on their next meeting than they were the day they both left Winterfell. They are both changed, hurt, damaged, and we have no idea what that could do to their psyche and future development. It could very well make any relationship between then that is adult/romantic/sexual in nature be an easier barrier to cross if they don't feel like the same people they once were.

However, I am not sure that change in necessary for their developmental arc, if they are intend to have an adult relationship with each other. Maybe all those things just are intended to make in easier for us, the reader, to accept the relationship. Maybe the relationship would have developed regardless of Jon and Arya's life experiences. Maybe the same feelings would have developed if they had both remained at Winterfell instead of setting out on different journeys? There connect has begun long before the books started.

Jaime and Cersei didn't need to grow up apart to have sexual feelings for each other, and people can blame Cersei all they want for seducing Jaime, but he still allowed it to happen the first time and many times after, for years and years. We grow a bit numb to that relationship, and we think poorly of the Lannisters, so this is just one more thing to lay at their doorstep. And we accept the Targaryens permitted and even encouraged incestuous marriages to keep their blood pure, but hey, they had Dragons, so they could do what ever they wanted. Except they have not had dragons for well over a hundred years, and they kept on with the incest.

GRRM presents incest to us in this series a lot, or at least enough that is doesn't leave our minds for long. There is the Theon/Asha interaction when Theon first comes home to the Iron Islands, and though nothing happens, and he does not know Asha is is sister, she know who he is, and she lets it go on for a bit. It certainly gives her power over him, but the incest hint is there. There is the hint that Gendry and Bella of the Stoney Sept are both Roberts bastards and there is no indication that Gendry did not "ring her bell" before sleeping next to Arya later in the night. I personally think that when Oberyn talks about his love for Elia, and how he tried to derail her marriage proposals away, that he might have loved her in a none approved sibling type of way. There are probably many other instances in the story that I am not seeing or thinking of, but GRRM has it as a reoccurring theme.

I don't see why the Starks should be any different from any other family in Westeros. Just cause we like to think they are better than that, we have to realize this is a fantasy world, created by GRRM, and not what is accepted in our world with today's values. 

I think there is every reason to think that the author has been hinting at this with Jon and Arya from the very beginning. Even before his story outline was published, there have have been idea's about Starkcest. Some things have changed in that story outline, but somethings have not. GRRM describes having a clear end game for some of his characters (and I think Jon and Arya are two of those characters) but the story does change and tell itself. I think they biggest mystery in that outline is the paragraph on the last page (IIRC) that is completlely blacked out. I think that is the reveal of Jon's parentage, and I don't think it is what most people expect it to be.

I don't think finding out they are cousins, if that is the case, will make this relationship any easier for Jon or Arya to bear, but it's not supposed to be easy, for them or for us. GRRM certainly seems to like to kick his readers in the gut.  And I think he will. He does that to his characters as well. 

I don't think that Jon and Arya are cousins, I think they will turn out to be siblings, as Jon is most definitely Ned's son, and Arya is his daughter. (I am not trying to bring the wrath of the RLJers down on myself, I just have a different idea that could play out, and I am actually not married to any one theory, because none of us is as smart or devious as GRRM). Some of this idea comes from the conversation that Jon and Ygritte have where she asks him if he would sleep with his sister, and he doesn't answer. At all! And he does think of Arya, even young and skinny when he thinks of his attraction to Ygritte. As previously described in this thread, it is not sexual really, but it is about nakedness, which is not usally how you think of your nine year old sister. I think it's done to ease our minds into the possibility of more! And I don't think that if Jon and Arya happen in the books, that the driving force will be sexual, more than comfort, but even the best of us feel lust at times. Even good old Ned!

Jon and Arya had a very interesting conversation in aGoT where he comments "girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister." Arya I-aGoT I think that Jon and Arya will need to carry on the blood of House Stark, with her name and his bastard sword. Yes, I am wearing a tinfoil hat here, and I know it, but this conversation means something to the end game. Unless we truly do see a white wolf grace the banner of house stark, and not a grey one. Or maybe they will marry their sigils, and we will get a grey wolf and a white wolf, similar to Joffrey Baratheon's lion and stag sigil.

Part of my reasoning of the incest is based on the Stark and Lannister conflict we have had since the beginning of aGoT. There are so many parallels and comparisons between the two families, except they are basically present at "good" Stark and "bad" Lannister, but we know that nothing is that simple in the real world, let alone GRRM's world. Grey, grey, grey, a million shades of grey. I think GRRM wants to show us that people can still be guilty of the same things, but are entirely different people, with different goals, plans, ideals and temptations. He wants us to know that the Starks and Lannisters are really not that different from each other. That doesn't make either family good or bad, just complicated. What a way to even the game board, by taking the "well at least the Starks are not into incest" card right out of our hands.

I think that the truth of Jon's parentage is going to shock the crapolla out of the readers. And what ever characters find out about it. And I think a lot of readers will kick and scream, and throw their books across the room a la Red Wedding style, but then the storm will pass, and the reasoning will settle the turmoil. I trust that GRRM will tell his tale in a way that we won't want to lynch him!

I think that the plot building between Jon and Arya is beautiful, and amazing really, because of the time lapse and difference of their plot arcs, but they always keep each other in their minds, over several years and five books. We seen at the end of Dance, that Jon finally felt he had a reason to step away from his Watch vows, to save his sister (even if it's not really Arya, he does not know that). And I think that for Arya, hearing about the murder of the Lord Commander of the Nights watch, the Black Bastard on the wall, will be the thing that makes her leave the House of Black and White and return to Westeros. She will be seeking revenge, I imagine, but what she will find will be Jon. They, to each other, are the thing that is more important than any vows or promises made.

Thanks again to the OP for posting on a subject that many people reject out of hand, but all theories have something worth discussing and this one has several things that are worth pondering, even if they are uncomfortable.

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