The monkeys growing?

[JonisHenryTudor]

29 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I fail to see how having a quality show is something HBO or its viewers wouldn't want. HBO has had lots of great shows in the past, all of them very popular. You think people were screaming for a TV show set in Ancient Rome ? Yet people loved Rome, and miss the show very much. It's really not that complicated.

He is not barking at any tree. He has taken the mature route and just does minimum stuff related to the show and keeps on writing his books. As it should be. And I don't think your analogy makes any sense, sorry. D&D told him there would be 30 people at the feast  but only two people showed up drunk and threw up in his food : that would be more accurate.

As someone else said earlier, I'm not saying he hates the show; only that he is unhappy with it. He shows the show at his theatre because he knows his fanbase is also partly made of show watchers, and he wants to make them happy (not to mention possible contractual obligations).

Rome was not based on a novel correct? I believe the show was created from a blank slate with some influence from historians. I think the issue is people are incapable of seeing the show as a standalone and frequently argue that is sucks because on page 338 this happened, but not in the show. The people who created Rome took history into consideration, and they constructed their own narrative. In this case, the producers have to take a novel and all of its complexities and convert it into a tv show that makes sense to everyone. The equivalent is taking a massive file and then condensing it into a zip file. Unlike digital files, a novel cannot simply be compressed into a different medium and retain all of its components. People also forget that D&D know much more than we do regarding the beginning to end. So their changes reflect things we do not know, and I think that makes people uncomfortable. 

 

The analogy makes perfect sense. Martin purposely created something massive so it could not be filmed (he has admitted this), and then when it is filmed the concept that he is unhappy with the outcome is rather disingenuous. In other words, if you prepare a feast for 3x as many guests that you expect will arrive, you are purposely preparing more food than is necessary. So complaining when there is a large amount of wasted food is rather hypocritical.

 

One thing I have noticed on these forums is that if you do not like someone's point, their analogies somehow make little sense, but if you agree their analogies couldn't have been written better......

 

At any rate, I have little sympathy for him. If he is unhappy or dissatisfied with the way his precious gem has been treated, then he should have declined the offer to turn it into a tv series and stuck to writing the novels. 

[HairGrowsBack]

5 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

snip

I think we have  fundamental disagreement on what the show is. I think the show displays a complete lack of understanding of the source material AND a poor quality on its own. You think people like ma are only complaining about minor changes. How you can watch the show and think "heh that's pretty much it" or "what a masterpiece" is beyond me, but we're not going to convince each other, are we ? So let's not derail the topic any further.

 

Back on topic, George does seem more optimistic than usual ; doesn't mean that he won't be wanting to make some changes that will hinder the completion of the book, but hopefully he will be done in a few months.

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I think we have  fundamental disagreement on what the show is. I think the show displays a complete lack of understanding of the source material AND a poor quality on its own. You think people like ma are only complaining about minor changes. How you can watch the show and think "heh that's pretty much it" or "what a masterpiece" is beyond me, but we're not going to convince each other, are we ? So let's not derail the topic any further.

 

Back on topic, George does seem more optimistic than usual ; doesn't mean that he won't be wanting to make some changes that will hinder the completion of the book, but hopefully he will be done in a few months.

Not particularly a fan of the show or tv in general so,...  But for me it is still far better than most tv out there primarily because of the theme, etc. My only point is the intense difficulty that anyone would have in completing this project. It is easier said than done, and it is certainly easier to second guess everything that is done. It still captures the essence of the books, and that is what it intends to do. 

 

Now something we can agree on. He does seem to be working tirelessly...if his blog is evidence of anything... I would suggest that if he expected to have Winds done by S6, he probably was close enough. 

[HairGrowsBack]

7 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Not particularly a fan of the show or tv in general so,...  But for me it is still far better than most tv out there primarily because of the theme, etc. My only point is the intense difficulty that anyone would have in completing this project. It is easier said than done, and it is certainly easier to second guess everything that is done. It still captures the essence of the books, and that is what it intends to do. 

 

Now something we can agree on. He does seem to be working tirelessly...if his blog is evidence of anything... I would suggest that if he expected to have Winds done by S6, he probably was close enough. 

Well considering that the show runners themselves consider that "themes are for 8th grade book report", we'll agree to disagree. The few themes that manage to make it into the show are completely reversals of the message intended in the books.

 

And yes, I'm rather hopeful. He has a bad history of badly estimating his writing pace , but he seems rather calm and laid-back, so things are looking good. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

1 minute ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Well considering that the show runners themselves consider that "themes are for 8th grade book report", we'll agree to disagree. The few themes that manage to make it into the show are completely reversals of the message intended in the books.

 

And yes, I'm rather hopeful. He has a bad history of badly estimating his writing pace , but he seems rather calm and laid-back, so things are looking good. 

He can't be too far off. I disagree with those who believe that he either does not care or has no interest in finishing the story. If that were the case, he would not have become so upset over someone killing his characters (I still have no idea what that was/is about). In my original post (page 1 I think..), I mentioned that Martin admitted to still writing which was sad...but he could very well be making the final edits among other things. No idea when it will become available, but I would be surprised if the final manuscript was not sent out to Bantam by the end of summer. Obviously I could be wrong. 

[finger]

I'd like to add my two cents.

I confess I hadn't been interested in the story until I happened to watch an episode of season 1. I liked it, and I felt like watching it from the beginnig, what took me to buy the first book, then the other books, and lastly to stop watching the show. I'm not too peculiar myself, so I think that Grrm was added quite a few readers because of the show. Only for this, he can't hate it. That stated, the show is, imo, a bruta copia of the books, but I still enjoy watching it more than much of the other stuff offered on tv.

[HairGrowsBack]

1 minute ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

He can't be too far off. I disagree with those who believe that he either does not care or has no interest in finishing the story. If that were the case, he would not have become so upset over someone killing his characters (I still have no idea what that was/is about). In my original post (page 1 I think..), I mentioned that Martin admitted to still writing which was sad...but he could very well be making the final edits among other things. No idea when it will become available, but I would be surprised if the final manuscript was not sent out to Bantam by the end of summer. Obviously I could be wrong. 

I agree. He cares a lot, and was obviously distraught when he realized he couldn't meet the october deadline. He seems to have been very dilligent ever since, and is answering a lot of questions without getting worked up. He also says he rewrites a lot, which takes time too. Late summer is a good guess to me.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

He can't be too far off. I disagree with those who believe that he either does not care or has no interest in finishing the story. If that were the case, he would not have become so upset over someone killing his characters (I still have no idea what that was/is about). In my original post (page 1 I think..), I mentioned that Martin admitted to still writing which was sad...but he could very well be making the final edits among other things. No idea when it will become available, but I would be surprised if the final manuscript was not sent out to Bantam by the end of summer. Obviously I could be wrong. 

GRRM has many conflicting impulses and priorities.  Of course he theoretically and intellectually wants to finish and wanted to finish a long time ago.  But, emotionally, for whatever reason, his behavior does not adhere to his theoretical desires.  And he's been doing this now, since Storm of Swords, so almost 20 years.  He deludes himself about a lot of things.  Obviously, what he told his publisher about finishing the novel in the fall and then late winter was total BS and 100% unrealistic.  It's will be June soon.  I'd say we will be incredibly lucky to get the novel out by the Christmas season.  And, I've finally concluded, that there is a better than 50/50 chance he never finishes the story, winds may be the last book...even based on what is known about Winds it does not seem like it comes close to moving the story foward sufficiently to have things end in one more book.  That means we will need 3 books, and that I think will simply not happen.  I'm sure he's a nice guy with the best of intentions, but he's extremely irresponsible as a professional, and now everyone, including himself is paying the price.

[Richard Writhen]

I was quite pleased with the newest sample chapter as I was not at whatever con or and haven't read any transcripts.

[JonisHenryTudor]

46 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

GRRM has many conflicting impulses and priorities.  Of course he theoretically and intellectually wants to finish and wanted to finish a long time ago.  But, emotionally, for whatever reason, his behavior does not adhere to his theoretical desires.  And he's been doing this now, since Storm of Swords, so almost 20 years.  He deludes himself about a lot of things.  Obviously, what he told his publisher about finishing the novel in the fall and then late winter was total BS and 100% unrealistic.  It's will be June soon.  I'd say we will be incredibly lucky to get the novel out by the Christmas season.  And, I've finally concluded, that there is a better than 50/50 chance he never finishes the story, winds may be the last book...even based on what is known about Winds it does not seem like it comes close to moving the story foward sufficiently to have things end in one more book.  That means we will need 3 books, and that I think will simply not happen.  I'm sure he's a nice guy with the best of intentions, but he's extremely irresponsible as a professional, and now everyone, including himself is paying the price.

Not going to disagree. I surmised that if he submitted soon that Christmas would sound about right, but I have no idea how long Bantam will get the book out. I know for academia it can take about a year, but I presume for this sort of stuff Bantam will push it out asap. I do believe he will finish, but I also agree that there is a very real possibility that he will not. I disagree with people who argue that he no longer cares about the story anymore, but I do agree--as you stated--that he has not put the effort forward to complete this. I have said in other discussion threads that the TV series was the worst possible thing for him and the series. It has become a distracted in more than one way.  If Winds is published at the hinted 1500 pages (I suppose it is possible) and is fantastic (i.e. Storm), I can swallow the pill a little easier. If it is 500-600 pages, and similar to Feast.....he may not quit, but I may walk away from the series.. and just accept the tv series' conclusion. 

 

I certainly agree with the final line, but I try to avoid moving the discussion that way due to the droves of "Martin is not your b*tch" followers. I have been critical in the past of Martin's disoriented work ethic from a professional pov. It has taken me about 3 years and several research trips to London to produce "my book" (dissertation), which included cutting it down from roughly 900 pages to about 400. I also have kids (one who is a special needs child), and I managed to push it out. Now my stuff might be complete garbage, but I have witnessed several faculty members work under intense pressure to push out books in order to earn tenure before their respective deadlines. Mind you, these works are pushed out but must also maintain a very high level of scholarship. I understand that "creative" writing takes time, but scholarly writing isn't exactly a walk in the park when you consider teaching requirements, grant proposals, research trips, conferences, writing, editing, etc. From this point of view, I think Martin--while he may not be our "b*tch"--has failed tremendously. 

[Cas Stark]

24 minutes ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Not going to disagree. I surmised that if he submitted soon that Christmas would sound about right, but I have no idea how long Bantam will get the book out. I know for academia it can take about a year, but I presume for this sort of stuff Bantam will push it out asap. I do believe he will finish, but I also agree that there is a very real possibility that he will not. I disagree with people who argue that he no longer cares about the story anymore, but I do agree--as you stated--that he has not put the effort forward to complete this. I have said in other discussion threads that the TV series was the worst possible thing for him and the series. It has become a distracted in more than one way.  If Winds is published at the hinted 1500 pages (I suppose it is possible) and is fantastic (i.e. Storm), I can swallow the pill a little easier. If it is 500-600 pages, and similar to Feast.....he may not quit, but I may walk away from the series.. and just accept the tv series' conclusion. 

 

I certainly agree with the final line, but I try to avoid moving the discussion that way due to the droves of "Martin is not your b*tch" followers. I have been critical in the past of Martin's disoriented work ethic from a professional pov. It has taken me about 3 years and several research trips to London to produce "my book" (dissertation), which included cutting it down from roughly 900 pages to about 400. I also have kids (one who is a special needs child), and I managed to push it out. Now my stuff might be complete garbage, but I have witnessed several faculty members work under intense pressure to push out books in order to earn tenure before their respective deadlines. Mind you, these works are pushed out but must also maintain a very high level of scholarship. I understand that "creative" writing takes time, but scholarly writing isn't exactly a walk in the park when you consider teaching requirements, grant proposals, research trips, conferences, writing, editing, etc. From this point of view, I think Martin--while he may not be our "b*tch"--has failed tremendously. 

I, like a lot of people, thought the series would be a plus.  I thought, first, he will never have to worry about money again.  And second, that a real deadline would force him to be disciplined, even that the adaptation might get his creativity flowing again  But, I didn't know at the time that he says deadlines have the opposite effect on him and he rebels against them, even though his deadlines now come years apart.  But, I agree, the series did not have the positive effect that so many hoped it would, it had the opposite effect, more fame, more distractions..and my own view is that the show has now contaminated his vision for the story because he has a whole different set of issues of out shocking the show or showing them why XYZ was a mistake, a whole new layer of complications and mental stress on top of his already shaky control of the story.

He failed himself.  It doesn't matter whether there is any ethical, amorphous duty to his fans or not.  Beyond everything else, he has failed himself.  Two overwhelmed semi hacks with a vast stack of HBO's money are not only finishing his story, but getting his glory, they are getting the glory for realistic fantasy, and brave storytelling....  I can't imagine what that would feel like, to have my major life's work somehow slip out of my control.

My guess on Winds is it's just like Dance, long, meandering, more new secondary characters, more time in Essos, and moving the needle not too much.  But I could be wrong, I apparently was wrong about Jon Snow dying [and so were you, LOL] and will probably be wrong about a few more things in the series.  I may give up on the series, I don't really know.  Since I think the show will end very close to how the books are supposed to end, that will inform my decision a bit, if Jon dies, Arya dies, RIckon dies,  the wolves die, Tyrion is a secret Targ, there is no reason for me to maintain my interest.  I'll be done when HBO is done.  

[JGP]

Though I didn't realize it until after Dance was published, the turning point for me was when Martin decided to drop the five year gap-- where, for those unfamiliar with it, Martin was going to leap the narrative forward by five years after A Storm of Swords.

In my opinion, the gap was great a idea, and with Martin being so adept a bullet-flashbacks [through remembrances, dreams, whatever] he could have filled in the blanks with minimal bloat to Dance-- which was supposed to be the novel that directly followed the gap.

I'm paraphrasing, but at one point Martin responded to a query about why he dropped the gap with, "Well, there's this character that shows up in Dance whose story I felt had to be told," hence the unintended Feast and [new] Dance respectively. I'm still a little confused as to who this character he referenced was. Aegon perhaps, who knows. 

So, he drops a gap that would've aged the Stark children to the point where they'd have been, pardon the expression, more useful. Imagine, no Feast. Dance comes out, and 5 years have passed. Older Arya shows up back in Westeros to reunite with her direwolf Nymeria and her pack of wolves and proceeds to knocking people off her list with tight flashbacks to illustrate how the important parts of her tutelage with the Faceless Men impacted her character and subsequent actions upon returning. Or an older, feral Rickon and Shaggy Dog. For example. 

Instead, whatever the real reason was if not this singular character, we get Feast and Dance [and arguably a large portion of the upcoming Winds] that are stuck in that five years of bloat, as it has grown beyond all proportion and has caused Martin nothing but problems [the Meereenese Knot, the High Sparrow, etc.] That one choice, to dispense with the gap, has caused a narrative nightmare for Martin that is almost, almost, out of his control. Barring Dany's return and summarily wiping out a plethora of unnecessary storylines by way of dragonfire-- there is absolutely no conceivable way Martin can write a satisfying conclusion without adding a book or two. 

And with 5 plus years between each published installment... [spreads hands]

I love his writing, and ASoIaF is a seminal piece of the craft [excepting Feast and Dance] but Martin has since made quite a few bad choices beyond just eliminating the gap.

Sad. 

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

21 hours ago, finger said:

I'd like to add my two cents.

I confess I hadn't been interested in the story until I happened to watch an episode of season 1. I liked it, and I felt like watching it from the beginnig, what took me to buy the first book, then the other books, and lastly to stop watching the show. I'm not too peculiar myself, so I think that Grrm was added quite a few readers because of the show. Only for this, he can't hate it. That stated, the show is, imo, a bruta copia of the books, but I still enjoy watching it more than much of the other stuff offered on tv.

 

That could be a pretty decent explanation, he can't really be against the show when so much of his current fanbase originates from it.

The same is true for me me, I don't like the show, but the show brought me to the books, as long as I hold the books in decent regard I cannot hate the show.

[Cas Stark]

33 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Though I didn't realize it until after Dance was published, the turning point for me was when Martin decided to drop the five year gap-- where, for those unfamiliar with it, Martin was going to leap the narrative forward by five years after A Storm of Swords.

In my opinion, the gap was great a idea, and with Martin being so adept a bullet-flashbacks [through remembrances, dreams, whatever] he could have filled in the blanks with minimal bloat to Dance-- which was supposed to be the novel that directly followed the gap.

I'm paraphrasing, but at one point Martin responded to a query about why he dropped the gap with, "Well, there's this character that shows up in Dance whose story I felt had to be told," hence the unintended Feast and [new] Dance respectively. I'm still a little confused as to who this character he referenced was. Aegon perhaps, who knows. 

So, he drops a gap that would've aged the Stark children to the point where they'd have been, pardon the expression, more useful. Imagine, no Feast. Dance comes out, and 5 years have passed. Older Arya shows up back in Westeros to reunite with her direwolf Nymeria and her pack of wolves and proceeds to knocking people off her list with tight flashbacks to illustrate how the important parts of her tutelage with the Faceless Men impacted her character and subsequent actions upon returning. Or an older, feral Rickon and Shaggy Dog. For example. 

Instead, whatever the real reason was if not this singular character, we get Feast and Dance [and arguably a large portion of the upcoming Winds] that are stuck in that five years of bloat, as it has grown beyond all proportion and has caused Martin nothing but problems [the Meereenese Knot, the High Sparrow, etc.] That one choice, to dispense with the gap, has caused a narrative nightmare for Martin that is almost, almost, out of his control. Barring Dany's return and summarily wiping out a plethora of unnecessary storylines by way of dragonfire-- there is absolutely no conceivable way Martin can write a satisfying conclusion without adding a book or two. 

And with 5 plus years between each published installment... [spreads hands]

I love his writing, and ASoIaF is a seminal piece of the craft [excepting Feast and Dance] but Martin has since made quite a few bad choices beyond just eliminating the gap.

Sad. 

I agree w/all of this.  The only real argument I've ever seen on why getting rid of the 5-year gap was a reasonable choice is that it wouldn't fit with Jon's or Stannis story because the Others can't have been doing nothing much for 5 years and neither could Stannis.  But, this never made much sense to me, not only have they done much of nothing for thousands of years, but they still have done not much in 5 books.  And there is no reason Stannis can't have cooled his heels for this rebuilding his forces and putting together a plan.

This is why I have fairly low expectations for Winds, I'm sure there will be some beautiful chapters and beautiful writing.  Hopefully the crazy bloat of over description we got in Dance will have been scaled back...but I don't see that it advances the story much based on what is known and what he has released.

The problem with getting rid of all these dangling plots using Dany, or any method really of ending them sooner rather than later,  is that, it makes it soooo clear they were all extraneous to begin with, so my sense is, the author will write more about these secondary plots and people, not less, to justify that the digression ever happened at all.  Which will keep the story stuck in neutral for another book. Yes, it is all very sad.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

27 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree w/all of this.  The only real argument I've ever seen on why getting rid of the 5-year gap was a reasonable choice is that it wouldn't fit with Jon's or Stannis story because the Others can't have been doing nothing much for 5 years and neither could Stannis.  But, this never made much sense to me, not only have they done much of nothing for thousands of years, but they still have done not much in 5 books.  And there is no reason Stannis can't have cooled his heels for this rebuilding his forces and putting together a plan.

Then I don't think you have been looking very hard...

The 5 year gap was always a bad idea, because he was trying to solve a problem that was part of the series from day 1 hastily 3 books in: the fact that many of the characters are just too young. He made them too young in the first place, he admits that, he can't change it now. He can't rectify a poor decision in the early 1990s by artificially shoving a massive gap into the story telling, that would have stood out, people would have complained about it. The flashbacks likely would have been excessive, people would have complained about that, otherwise we would be left in the dark about what happened to characters over the 5 years, people would have complained about that to.

You are right with regards to the Others, at least to some extent, however there is still the problem that they already have their host of the dead, what are they waiting for? Why let the Watch&co prepare for 5 additional years?

As for Stannis, he couldn't plausibly stay at the Wall for all that time, that wouldn't make sense in terms of supplies or strengthening his army, which means his ADWD arc (which seems to be generally liked) would happen during the gap.

I don't believe an author should be above criticism for his decisions, I criticise (or did when I posted here more often) the books a lot for things I don't like. But at the same time, the reader has to accept that the author knows what can and can't be done with the story.

Martin attempted to write the 5 year gap for years, he spent hundreds of hours on it, he had to scrap who know how many pages of writing when he decided to scrap the gap. Now maybe you don't value his decision making here, but why would he have done that unless he believed the concept of the 5 year gap was unsalvageable?

Personally I like AFFC and ADWD as much as the earlier books (I wasn't a fan of Feast at first, but it grew on me), however I understand why other's aren't fond, there are a lot of things done differently, and many plots introduced that many were bound not to like. However you can't really blame all of those problems on the 5 year gap being taken out.

I think it is important to recognise that a lot of Martin's ideas and a lot about the way he wants to write has changed since 1996, so a change in the way things are written as the series progresses is to be expected, secondly we should be aware that AFFC&ADWD were essentially to make up the second part of his original 3 book story plan, so it isn't surprising that the pace has changed.

Thirdly, and most importantly, the endings of ASOS made it inevitable that he would have to introduce a lot more threads in the next books, not only does he have to continue with the existing PoV's he also has to give us more of what's going on in the Riverlands, King's Landing, Iron Islands, in the North, in Dorne, in the Reach and the Vale, and so on.

None of what I have said is to exonerate Martin from the bad decisions he has mad in books 4 and 5 and in the earlier books, they are there and the fans should be happy to bring them up. At the same time it is unfair and unrealistic to imply that all/most of the recent books originate from decision x, whatever that might be, many of these flaws were going to be endemic to the series from the beginning (having a continent, with 8 ruling Houses, hundreds of characters of people, hundreds of agenda's etc was very likely to spiral a bit out of control eventually), others developed over time.

Anyway, I don't know what the point of all that was, there was one when I started, but I don't know what it is now, oh well.

[JGP]

Mmn... I don't know about the majority of that, Hightower. 

I'll grant you the point about starting the Stark children so young.

Putting aside how good Martin is with flashback snippets/dreams, consider all the history [ancient and otherwise] that Martin has capably proven he can impart in one short-yet-fraught conversation, or several. All we know about Lyanna for instance [and surrounding events] has been imparted through such and I feel comfortable in stating that all of them together wouldn't amount to many pages at all.

I'm reading Dance after the gap: 

 

Dany Chapter.

Sweet. Hmn, the dragons are big now. Where's Drogon? And jeez, clearly Dany has some discipline issues with them cause those are some angry people souring her mood there on her way to the meeting. Euron said he could help with that, but, Greyjoys, right. Besides, that horn that Belwas shoved up his ass, they can't get it out. Wait, were those resentful former Masters she just passed there, those pissy guys doing menial public works? Hah. As she walks down the hall to the meeting she passes dozens of damaged masks that adorn the passage's walls. She rubs the ugly scar on her neck. Sons of the Harpy. Pfft. She enters the Queen's Small Council. Wait, what? Is that Tyrion at the end of the table? What the... yet Barristan and he seem to have a grudging respect for each other given their banter. Huh. Here's Dany now making herself get over the incident with the aggrieved parents she'd encountered on the way to the meeting and asks her councilors to give a round table report on the logistics of the succession of power once she leaves Meereen. Then, where they're all at with the assembling of the fleet. Add some reflection, sprinkle some anecdotes throughout: Remember that guy? Hahaha...  Hell, even the two dragons out on the balcony are laughing at this point. Yet, amusement aside, Dany is skeptical about what else the Martells might want when she finally lands in Westeros [worse than those pandering Tyrells] but she's especially concerned about that insubordinate Darkstar currently residing in the dungeon below. Tyrion councils her not to worry too much about him and wryly reminds her of when they first met. Or even Arya Stark. She was hired to kill you remember, and now she's Second to Barristan here in Queen's Guard. Point, there. Now Tyrion is belting back a large goblet of wine, but it's not the time to upbraid his falling off the wagon though, who can blame him, what with what happened with the Unsullied and all... 

 

In the passage of say a baker's dozen or so of pages to expand the above, you've now smoothed readers into what could have been an otherwise jarring leap in time. It also has the benefit of re-injecting some more mystery into the narrative with changed allegiances, friends turned enemies [why the hell is Edd being such a dick to Jon] surprising deaths, and so and so forth. Martin may have decided to do the gap, as you say, because the Starks were too young-- and sure, maybe by part way through writing Clash he also realized his intended trilogy was blown.

No idea.

But I disagree with you on whether the gap would have worked. Not with an author of Martin's ability. I mean, look at all we got insofar as characterization and personal history through character interactions [not to mention anticipation] within the first few chapters of A Game of Thrones... And we hardly knew anyone then. 

 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Mmn... I don't know about the majority of that, Hightower. 

I'll grant you the point about starting the Stark children so young.

Putting aside how good Martin is with flashback snippets/dreams, consider all the history [ancient and otherwise] that Martin has capably proven he can impart in one short-yet-fraught conversation, or several. All we know about Lyanna for instance [and surrounding events] has been imparted through such and I feel comfortable in stating that all of them together wouldn't amount to many pages at all.

I'm reading Dance after the gap: 

 

Dany Chapter.

Sweet. Hmn, the dragons are big now. Where's Drogon? And jeez, clearly Dany has some discipline issues with them cause those are some angry people souring her mood there on her way to the meeting. Euron said he could help with that, but, Greyjoys, right. Besides, that horn that Belwas shoved up his ass, they can't get it out. Wait, were those resentful former Masters she just passed there, those pissy guys doing menial public works? Hah. As she walks down the hall to the meeting she passes dozens of damaged masks that adorn the passage's walls. She rubs the ugly scar on her neck. Sons of the Harpy. Pfft. She enters the Queen's Small Council. Wait, what? Is that Tyrion at the end of the table? What the... yet Barristan and he seem to have a grudging respect for each other given their banter. Huh. Here's Dany now making herself get over the incident with the aggrieved parents she'd encountered on the way to the meeting and asks her councilors to give a round table report on the logistics of the succession of power once she leaves Meereen. Then, where they're all at with the assembling of the fleet. Add some reflection, sprinkle some anecdotes throughout: Remember that guy? Hahaha...  Hell, even the two dragons out on the balcony are laughing at this point. Yet, amusement aside, Dany is skeptical about what else the Martells might want when she finally lands in Westeros [worse than those pandering Tyrells] but she's especially concerned about that insubordinate Darkstar currently residing in the dungeon below. Tyrion councils her not to worry too much about him and wryly reminds her of when they first met. Or even Arya Stark. She was hired to kill you remember, and now she's Second to Barristan here in Queen's Guard. Point, there. Now Tyrion is belting back a large goblet of wine, but it's not the time to upbraid his falling off the wagon though, who can blame him, what with what happened with the Unsullied and all... 

 

In the passage of say a baker's dozen or so of pages to expand the above, you've now smoothed readers into what could have been an otherwise jarring leap in time. It also has the benefit of re-injecting some more mystery into the narrative with changed allegiances, friends turned enemies [why the hell is Edd being such a dick to Jon] surprising deaths, and so and so forth. Martin may have decided to do the gap, as you say, because the Starks were too young-- and sure, maybe by part way through writing Clash he also realized his intended trilogy was blown.

No idea.

But I disagree with you on whether the gap would have worked. Not with an author of Martin's ability. I mean, look at all we got insofar as characterization and personal history through character interactions [not to mention anticipation] within the first few chapters of A Game of Thrones... And we hardly knew anyone then. 

 

I would just like to say your version of Dany's first chapter in a time skip DwD, is much better than the actual chapter we got.

 

Many where some of those chapters boring as hell. I honestly have no idea what GRRM was thinking.

[Steelborn]

Remember the world we used to live in? That one where GRRM would publish TWOW along with the season 6 premiere. 

[apovsic]

11 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Dany Chapter.

<snip>

Well, now I'm totally convinced that 5 - year gap was a terrible idea.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, apovsic said:

Well, now I'm totally convinced that 5 - year gap was a terrible idea.

Yea because seeing every rock and lake Tyrion moves past in the book was much better. Seeing Dany do nothing except fail as a leader was also pure gold as well. Ohh and don't get me started about Quentyn Martell and his massive contribution to the story, lol