[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[Mister Stoneheart]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Okay, but seriously.

Can someone explain what they think Dan and Dave thought they were doing when they had Sansa complain nobody is asking her opinion and then when Jon does ask her...she flies into a rage and tells him she knows nothing about tactics or anything....all she knows is that he must not do what Ramsay wants him to and they need more men, but doesn't tell him about the Vale army??

What did they think they're showing there?

Exactly, which is why anyone who thinks it is proper to give these asshats a writing award should rethink that.

The Battle of Bastards:

Let's kill Rickon.  Let's have a cool Deus ex Machina ending where we think Jon is toast but lo and behold, Littledinger arrives in the nick of time.  Let's have lots of bodies piling up for a really cool shot with Jon swimming in corpses.  Let's have Sansa be all bad ass and telepathically open kennel doors to release hounds on Ramsay.

Now, how to make all this plausible?  Nah, screw plausible.  Our viewers are drunk, high, have an IQ of 80, and are here for tits and dragons.  GRRM is great at building plot but screw that.  COOL IMAGES AND SHOTS!!!!!

[Chebyshov]

42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rheon answering who's worse, Ramsay or Joffrey:

I think it's Joffrey! Because he was all-powerful and he did things purely because he could, but he never did his own dirty work. Whereas Ramsay, it was a real battle for him to reach where he got — the heights of being Warden of the North. It was all against the odds. He's a bastard, and he had no right to be there in the world of the show. At least he does his own dirty work. I think there's something more to him."

LOL

That's hilarious. Poor Wamsay Sue! He's had humble beginnings, he rose to WotN on his own, and he does his own dirty work, unlike Joffrey. 

My heart bleeds for you, Wamsay Sue. 

Well frankly the Northern Lords should be crying their eyes out. They loved him as Warden, especially once he showed his worth by murdering his dad. He was so great that he could sit back and peel every apple while people would just randomly swear fealty and bring him hostages.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Okay, but seriously.

Can someone explain what they think Dan and Dave thought they were doing when they had Sansa complain nobody is asking her opinion and then when Jon does ask her...she flies into a rage and tells him she knows nothing about tactics or anything....all she knows is that he must not do what Ramsay wants him to and they need more men, but doesn't tell him about the Vale army??

What did they think they're showing there?

Perhaps they just don't understand military matters.

Any commander needs the best possible information, in order to formulate his plans.  Jon is an experienced soldier.  Sansa isn't, but she has been brought up as part of a Great House.  In a medieval society, noble women rarely command armies, but they may often stand sieges, and certainly need to know about military matters, in order to be sure that their captains and knights know what they're doing. Someone in her position, who had information that thousands of reinforcements were on their way, would know very well that this was the sort of information that her commander needed to know.  Even if she doesn't know for certain that the Vale knights are on the way, the very fact that they might be coming gives Jon more options.  He can send out scouts to find out if they're close.  If they are, he doesn't need to offer immediate battle to Ramsay.

[Ser Quork]

3 minutes ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

 

Now, how to make all this plausible?  Nah, screw plausible.  Our viewers are drunk, high, have an IQ of 80, and are here for tits and dragons.  GRRM is great at building plot but screw that.  COOL IMAGES AND SHOTS!!!!!

Cue Beavis and Butthead laughter.  I can hear it now.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps they just don't understand military matters.

Any commander needs the best possible information, in order to formulate his plans.  Jon is an experienced soldier.  Sansa isn't, but she has been brought up as part of a Great House.  In a medieval society, noble women rarely command armies, but they may often stand sieges, and certainly need to know about military matters, in order to be sure that their captains and knights know what they're doing. Someone in her position, who had information that thousands of reinforcements were on their way, would know very well that this was the sort of information that her commander needed to know.  Even if she doesn't know for certain that the Vale knights are on the way, the very fact that they might be coming gives Jon more options.  He can send out scouts to find out if they're close.  If they are, he doesn't need to offer immediate battle to Ramsay.

Even a 10 year old knows that a giant army waiting in the wings is something that the commander needs to know.

But, that aside, isn't it sort of objectionable that she complains about no one listening to her...but all she has to offer is a weirdo emotional hysterical outburst that she knows nothing about tactics and Ramsay is tricksy?  

Is this supposed to be her being a Boss.Ass.Individual.? because she comes off as an unhinged, useless person who has, yes, indeed, nothing of value to offer the discussion.

[OldGimletEye]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What ought to happen is that Jon tells Sansa he's going to behead her, for withholding crucial information that led to thousands of his men being killed.

Okay, me being a bit more serious here.

Obviously, Sansa is one of my favorite ASOIAF characters. And I like Jon too. So I've been a bit obsessive with my commentary this week about their characterizations, particularly Sansa, since I am really incensed about her portrayal this week. Really pissed about it.

So I've been thinking a lot about it.

After thinking about it, I think this episode actually demonstrates one point rather nicely. And that is lack of trust or trusting no one can be just as deadly and as foolish as naively trusting everyone.

Given how cynical D & D's writing often is, I don't think they intentionally meant to make that point. But there it is, plain as day.

And in this case, Jon and Sansa's lack of communication and trust likely lead to the deaths of hundreds of soldiers. That's usually how shit goes when leaders fail.

Even if we want to assign most of the casualties to Jon's dumb ass charge, after it was apparent that Rickon was dead, the fact of the matter is that the lack of trust and communication could have lead to many unnecessary deaths. Eventually things like that will bite you in the ass. 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

2 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

Sorry, sorry, just saw this.

I'm hoping to! I'm trying to figure out a way to expand and make them even more dramatically satisfying, not that random images slopped onto my blog wasn't stunning, lol.

But for sure, I'll try to set something up so we can maybe bounce around category ideas and all that. I know I'd like to add "they totally earned their paycheck" for the likes of Max von Sydow and such.

By the way I really agree with your post on your blog that you can never see the characters when watching this show.

When I watch the show I don't see Jon Snow, I see Kit Harrington saying bad lines written by D&D, I don't see Sansa, I see Sophie Turner mouthing bad lines written by D&D. I'm never in the story when watching the show any more, that's why the Direwolf banner over Winterfell, which if it happens in the books would probably bring a tear to my eye, did nothing for me on the show. The show has done such a bad job suspending my disbelief that I cannot connect to it emotionally at all.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, me being a bit more serious here.

Obviously, Sansa is one of my favorite ASOIAF characters. And I like Jon too. So I've been a bit obsessive with my commentary this week about their characterizations, particularly Sansa, since I am really incensed about her portrayal this week. Really pissed about it.

So I've been thinking a lot about it.

After thinking about it, I think this episode actually demonstrates one point rather nicely. And that is lack of trust or trusting no one can be just as deadly and as foolish as naively trusting everyone.

Given how cynical D & D's writing often is, I don't think they intentionally meant to make that point. But there it is, plain as day.

And in this case, Jon and Sansa's lack of communication and trust likely lead to the deaths of hundreds of soldiers. That's usually how shit goes when leaders fail.

Even if we want to assign most of the casualties to Jon's dumb ass charge, after it was apparent that Rickon was dead, the fact of the matter is that the lack of trust and communication could have lead to many unnecessary deaths. Eventually things like that will bite you in the ass. 

That too is quite fair.  Like you, I don't think that D & D are making that point though.  Alternatively, they could be trying to portray Sansa as having become completely callous and ruthless.  But, I don't think they're doing that either.  No, I think we're meant to admire Sansa's "cleverness" here.

The whole Dornish plot in AFFC is an excellent example of how lack of trust can lead to near-disaster (the less said about the Dornish plot in the show, the better).

 

[SuperMario]

1 minute ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

By the way I really agree with your post on your blog that you can never see the characters when watching this show.

When I watch the show I don't see Jon Snow, I see Kit Harrington saying bad lines written by D&D, I don't see Sansa, I see Sophie Turner mouthing bad lines written by D&D. I'm never in the story when watching the show any more, that's why the Direwolf banner over Winterfell, which if it happens in the books would probably bring a tear to my eye, did nothing for me on the show. The show has done such a bad job suspending my disbelief that I cannot connect to it emotionally at all.

Yep. I agree with this. I don't feel really of the actors are the characters. They are just actors to me. Though, I did feel immersed in Season 1. I felt Ned, and Robert and Varys and others were the characters. But that slowly changed for the worse season by season since then.

I remember watching Lonesome Dove for the first time after reading the book and truly feeling like those were the characters. It is that way with several other book to screen adaptations - Lord of the Rings, The Shining, etc. I know people say they get teary-eyed or fully immersed in scenes or characters. But for me, all that is gone. It is just actors on a screen reading some lines.

[OldGimletEye]

26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps they just don't understand military matters.

Any commander needs the best possible information, in order to formulate his plans.  Jon is an experienced soldier.  Sansa isn't, but she has been brought up as part of a Great House.  In a medieval society, noble women rarely command armies, but they may often stand sieges, and certainly need to know about military matters, in order to be sure that their captains and knights know what they're doing. Someone in her position, who had information that thousands of reinforcements were on their way, would know very well that this was the sort of information that her commander needed to know.  Even if she doesn't know for certain that the Vale knights are on the way, the very fact that they might be coming gives Jon more options.  He can send out scouts to find out if they're close.  If they are, he doesn't need to offer immediate battle to Ramsay.

They don't. Not one iota.  And that's why they probably don't see any issue with Sandra's behavior.

And so likely were at distinguishing between what we see and what D & D really meant to do.

[Cas Stark]

 

What was clever about getting her family's last remaining supporters needlessly killed, and her brother, by refusing to disclose there was a huge army waiting for the go sign?

 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

They don't. Not one iota.  And that's why they probably don't see any issue with Sandra's behavior.

And so likely were at distinguishing between what we see and what D & D really meant to do.

Actually, I do say they're often good at getting details right (eg just how deadly volley firing by archers can be in battle) at the same time as missing bigger things.

They could really benefit from having someone like Bernard Cornwell advising them on military matters.  And, there's no reason why you can't combine credibility with dramatic tension.  You could have a situation where Jon knows that the Vale Knights are coming, but is still trapped into fighting by Ramsay, and his army is desperately holding out in the hope that the rescuers will arrive in time.

[SuperMario]

Just now, SeanF said:

Actually, I do say they're often good at getting details right (eg just how deadly volley firing by archers can be in battle) at the same time as missing bigger things.

They could really benefit from having someone like Bernard Cornwell advising them on military matters.  And, there's no reason why you can't combine credibility with dramatic tension.  You could have a situation where Jon knows that the Vale Knights are coming, but is still trapped into fighting by Ramsay, and his army is desperately holding out in the hope that the rescuers will arrive in time.

Exactly. At Helm's Deep in LOTR, Aragorn knew Gandalf was coming and so did we as the viewers, yet there was still a lot of tension and great lead-up to that moment.

Bernard Hill's great line: "What can men do against such reckless hate?"

That's what good writing can do in situations. You can still have credibility with dramatic tension.

[OldGimletEye]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Actually, I do say they're often good at getting details right (eg just how deadly volley firing by archers can be in battle) at the same time as missing bigger things.

They could really benefit from having someone like Bernard Cornwell advising them on military matters.  And, there's no reason why you can't combine credibility with dramatic tension.  You could have a situation where Jon knows that the Vale Knights are coming, but is still trapped into fighting by Ramsay, and his army is desperately holding out in the hope that the rescuers will arrive in time.

They may get thinks like medieval archers right. But,..
If they had ever humped a pack or carried a rifle, they'd know how vital communication is and that lack of communication is a big source of fuck ups.
And if they went out and got advice or studied this stuff themselves, they would know how important planning and communication is.
Or maybe if they just attempted to use a little sense...

And I agree with you that they could have done the dramatic tension thing while having credibility if they had used a little more brain power.
 

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Exactly. At Helm's Deep in LOTR, Aragorn knew Gandalf was coming and so did we as the viewers, yet there was still a lot of tension and great lead-up to that moment.

Bernard Hill's great line: "What can men do against such reckless hate?"

That's what good writing can do in situations. You can still have credibility with dramatic tension.

I loved the Battle of Helms Deep.  I loved the siege of Minas Tirith and the charge of the Rohirrim.

But, they made it all pointless by having Sauron's army destroyed by killer soap bubbles.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

So The Battle of the Bastards is currently the highest rated episode of a tv show of all time in imdb, overtaking Breaking Bad's Ozymandias. 

You know, I'm glad for Miguel Sapochnik. He really did a terrific job and I think he totally deserves an Emmy. But watch David and Dan win for "Happy shitting!" instead. 

[OldGimletEye]

20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 

What was clever about getting her family's last remaining supporters needlessly killed, and her brother, by refusing to disclose there was a huge army waiting for the go sign?

 

Realistically there was nothing clever about Sandra doing the "Voldemort Keeper of The Secrets" thing.

But, D & D seemed to think it was clever. That's why she did the old LF smirk.

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

This is about last episode, but it has been pissing me off, and it relates to the adapters' terrible terrible ability to make scenes realistic.

Ok,

Ramsay is tied up in his chair in the kennels, right?  Fine, that's easy.  He was dragged there, tied up, and Sansa waited for him to revive.

The hounds are hungry and haven't been fed for 7 days.  Ok, got that.  Makes sense, oooh hungry hounds, they are going to get that Ramsay.

WAIT, WHO the HELL opened the kennel doors?  We see the dogs slinking out of their cages--the doors have been opened a little bit.

a.) why didn't the dogs come out earlier.  Does hunger wait for a Sansa and Ramsay dialogue to pass?

b.) why didn't the dogs eat whoever OPENED the doors?

c.) WHO THE HELL OPENED THE DOORS?

d.) Whoever opened the doors would have been EATEN by 7 day hungry hounds.

WHERE IS THE VERISIMILITUDE IN THIS SHOW?

HA!  Yes!  Thank you for pointing this out!  I had these very thoughts while watching the scene and posted, basically, "Wow!  Those ravenous hounds sure were polite to wait for Sansa and SupeRamsay to finish their conversation before eating his face off!"  So, so...stupid!

1 hour ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

Exactly.  And all the bodies piling up together?  IN AN OPEN FIELD?

I guess Starks/Stark loyalists really do prefer to run in a straight line.

I also agree with this.  That pile of bodies was yet another instance of extreme stupidity!  How?  How could that even happen in those circumstances?!  Men would have to simply keep climbing up the pile of bodies only to be killed by arrows or fighting while on top of it!  And this when, you know, there was plenty of open space where they could simply...go around 

[rosehustle1]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

What probably should have really happened.

When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong: Sandra Snark Edition

After feeling disrespected by Jon Snow, because Jon didn't ask for her input enough, Sandra had a choice to make. Should she tell him about the Vale forces or should she keep it real?

Sandra chose to keep it real.

Sandra said,"Fuck this bullshit! He needs to recognize I'm a Boss Ass Individual now. I'm not telling him shit!"

What Sandra didn't know was that RamsaySue's recon had learned about the Vale Army. With his forces occupying a central position between the Vale Army and Jon's forces and with a strong base of operations located at Winterfell, RamsaySue, with his 20 good men, decided to launch an operation, which would defeat the Vale Army and Jon's forces piecemeal. RamsaySue's army rapidly marched south down the King's Road, met the Vale Army and defeated it. RamsaySue then turned his army around and met Jon's Army and defeated it too.

With the Vale Army and Jon's Army utterly destroyed by RamsaySue, Sandra was forced to go back to Winterhell and be Ramsay's wife. Sandra tried to tell RamsaySue that she was a Boss Ass Individual now and he had better recognize. Unfortunately for Sandra, RamsaySue wasn't buying it.

LOL! I remember When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong on Chapelle Show. Very good. Yeah, Fansa woud have probably ended up like this if they were actually following their own show logic (which isn't very logical) but we got the LF save that made no sense.

I also don't understand why Fansa didn't just talk during the war council? She talked in all the other ones but in this one she holds her tongue and then acts all passive aggressive about not be directly addressed. And Jon was open to her insights but she  decides to still remain quiet about the Vale. Such a dumb character. She's not my Sansa at all.

[Le Cygne]

28 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What was clever about getting her family's last remaining supporters needlessly killed, and her brother, by refusing to disclose there was a huge army waiting for the go sign?

If she was truly smart she would know a go sign wasn't even needed. 

LF always intended to invade Winterfell with the Vale troops anyway. He said so last season.

She should have told Jon from the start, and they could have captured LF and claimed the troops. SR sent the troops for Sansa, not LF ("she's my cousin"). It was SR's call on the show.