The Old Gods and Their Worshippers

[TheKindlyMan]

It is a given that the Free Folk, Northmen (with the exception of the Manderlys), and the Blackwoods of Raventree worship the Old Gods, as well as a few converted brothers of the Night's Watch. But are there any other southron houses of First Men lineage that also pray to the Old Gods? Specifically, I am wondering about Houses Royce, Redfort, Gilwood, Dayne, Belmore, Coldwater, Shetts, and Yronwood, which are known to be descendants of the First Men. However, there is no mention of which gods they keep. Do we have any proof for or against the clans of the Mountains of the Moon, descendants of the First Men who so staunchly fought against the Andal invasion of the Vale and continue to resist Andal rule, converting to the Faith which the Andals brought with them?

Any wild guesses will be entertained, any supported theories will be greatly appreciated!

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

I think it's fair to say that if a Southron House hasn't been mentioned as following the Old Gods that they pray to the Seven. Continuing to worship the Old Gods in the South is such a rare thing that if a House did, it would be mentioned. If House Royce, for example, still prayed to the Old Gods, it likely would've been mentioned at some point alongside their bronze armour and runic sigil. And besides, most of the Houses have origins with the First Men so it doesn't make much sense to assume that because a House originated among the First Men that it worships the Old Gods. And as for the Vale's Mountain Clansmen, I'm pretty sure they very likely stick to the Old Gods with some possible tribal offshots/differences (I belief the Burned Ears or whatever they're called are said to have once worshiped a Fire Witch or something) but I'm not 100% certain.

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

I think you can safely rule out the houses that are know for producing Knights.

Yeah, yeah, I know Jorah but Knighthood is still the domain of those that follow the Seven.

[Macgregor of the North]

I was surprised at first that there is never mention House Royce kept the old gods as I would have put money on it but right enough, it's never mentioned once. 

There is a Dornish house named Blackmont. It's been stated in the histories they worshipped a dark God and a Lord from their past could transform himself into a vulture of enormous size. I have heard Melisandre refer to the Old gods as the dark gods, although that don't mean it confirms the Blackmonts keep the old gods. 

I personally think the vulture comment though is a nod to Skinchanging which is a first men/Old gods thing. It reminds me of House Blackwood and a lot of people think Skinchanging is strong in their blood and of course they are a first men house who keep the old gods. So house Blackmont is a possible old gods House maybe.

[Ser Few of the Fingers]

1 hour ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

I think you can safely rule out the houses that are know for producing Knights.

Yeah, yeah, I know Jorah but Knighthood is still the domain of those that follow the Seven.

And Rodrik

[TheSovereignGrave]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I was surprised at first that there is never mention House Royce kept the old gods as I would have put money on it but right enough, it's never mentioned once. 

There is a Dornish house named Blackmont. It's been stated in the histories they worshipped a dark God and a Lord from their past could transform himself into a vulture of enormous size. I have heard Melisandre refer to the Old gods as the dark gods, although that don't mean it confirms the Blackmonts keep the old gods. 

I personally think the vulture comment though is a nod to Skinchanging which is a first men/Old gods thing. It reminds me of House Blackwood and a lot of people think Skinchanging is strong in their blood and of course they are a first men house who keep the old gods. So house Blackmont is a possible old gods House maybe.

I don't think skinchanging had anything to do with religion, but with blood and pretty much everyone in Westeros has First Men blood. I believe House Crane and House Farwynd are explicitly rumoured to sometimes be skinchangers, but there's nothing to point to them not worshiping the Seven and the Drowned God, respectively.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I was surprised at first that there is never mention House Royce kept the old gods as I would have put money on it but right enough, it's never mentioned once. 

I was surprised too, in my head I've always associated the Royces with the old gods, probably because Waymar joined the Night's Watch "voluntarily", which is more of a Northern thing, especially for Lords' sons.

17 hours ago, TheKindlyMan said:

It is a given that the Free Folk, Northmen (with the exception of the Manderlys), and the Blackwoods of Raventree worship the Old Gods, as well as a few converted brothers of the Night's Watch. But are there any other southron houses of First Men lineage that also pray to the Old Gods? Specifically, I am wondering about Houses Royce, Redfort, Gilwood, Dayne, Belmore, Coldwater, Shetts, and Yronwood, which are known to be descendants of the First Men. However, there is no mention of which gods they keep. Do we have any proof for or against the clans of the Mountains of the Moon, descendants of the First Men who so staunchly fought against the Andal invasion of the Vale and continue to resist Andal rule, converting to the Faith which the Andals brought with them?

Any wild guesses will be entertained, any supported theories will be greatly appreciated!

 

I would think the Mountain Clans would be more likely to worship the old gods than the new, but at the same time, we know from Cat's and/or Sansa's time in the Vale that weirwood trees do not grow at the Eyrie, so they might not. If the Mountain Clans come back into play (which seems likely), we may find out. As far as the other houses you mentioned, I think they likely started as followers of the old gods, but then gradually converted to the new gods over time, as a result of the blending between the First Men and Andals. We do not know the Dayne words, because they would give "too much" away (I don't have the source handy, but it's out there somewhere), so perhaps their words are something along the lines of "the old gods are the best and they're the only ones who can help defeat the others"...? 

[TheKindlyMan]

Hardly anything grows way up in the Eyrie, but that's probably because it's above the tree line, but the rest of the Mountains of the Moon have tree cover, as seen through Tyrion's chapters traversing them as a prisoner. I'd assume there would still be wild weirwoods growing, especially since we're getting hints that they are spreading southward again.

Quote

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I was surprised at first that there is never mention House Royce kept the old gods as I would have put money on it but right enough, it's never mentioned once. 

I was surprised too, in my head I've always associated the Royces with the old gods, probably because Waymar joined the Night's Watch "voluntarily", which is more of a Northern thing, especially for Lords' sons.

These. And with such importance placed on runestones written in the Old Tongue, shouldn't the Royces have kept the gods that (probably) imbued the magic?

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I was surprised too, in my head I've always associated the Royces with the old gods, probably because Waymar joined the Night's Watch "voluntarily", which is more of a Northern thing, especially for Lords' sons.

I would think the Mountain Clans would be more likely to worship the old gods than the new, but at the same time, we know from Cat's and/or Sansa's time in the Vale that weirwood trees do not grow at the Eyrie, so they might not. If the Mountain Clans come back into play (which seems likely), we may find out. As far as the other houses you mentioned, I think they likely started as followers of the old gods, but then gradually converted to the new gods over time, as a result of the blending between the First Men and Andals. We do not know the Dayne words, because they would give "too much" away (I don't have the source handy, but it's out there somewhere), so perhaps their words are something along the lines of "the old gods are the best and they're the only ones who can help defeat the others"...? 

We know the mountain clans support the old gods, at least per words of Jon Snow, who may or may not know anything:

Jon turned to Melisandre. "My lady, fair warning. The old gods are strong in those mountains. The clansmen will not suffer insults to their heart trees."

[TheSovereignGrave]

2 hours ago, TheKindlyMan said:

Hardly anything grows way up in the Eyrie, but that's probably because it's above the tree line, but the rest of the Mountains of the Moon have tree cover, as seen through Tyrion's chapters traversing them as a prisoner. I'd assume there would still be wild weirwoods growing, especially since we're getting hints that they are spreading southward again.

These. And with such importance placed on runestones written in the Old Tongue, shouldn't the Royces have kept the gods that (probably) imbued the magic?

This is pure speculation, but I'd imagine they didn't have much of a choice. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that when they were broken at the Battle of the Seven Stars that the First Men who bowed to the Andals were forced to convert or eventually converted due to pressure from House Arryn's Andal vassal, who were likely stronger at the time since they hadn't just been beaten soundly in a war.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We know the mountain clans support the old gods, at least per words of Jon Snow, who may or may not know anything:

Jon turned to Melisandre. "My lady, fair warning. The old gods are strong in those mountains. The clansmen will not suffer insults to their heart trees."

Sorry for the lack of clarity, I was talking about the Mountain Clans of the Vale, not the North. 

[TheKindlyMan]

5 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

This is pure speculation, but I'd imagine they didn't have much of a choice. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that when they were broken at the Battle of the Seven Stars that the First Men who bowed to the Andals were forced to convert or eventually converted due to pressure from House Arryn's Andal vassal, who were likely stronger at the time since they hadn't just been beaten soundly in a war.

That's a fair enough speculation, I'd say, given the fervent nature of the Andal invasion GRRM draws out.

5 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Sorry for the lack of clarity, I was talking about the Mountain Clans of the Vale, not the North. 

...but wasn't that quote in direct reference to the Clans of the North before Stannis set out to win them to his cause?

[Jon Fossoway]

They all worship Lucifer Dryland, King of the Brimstone and Lord of Hellgate Hall.

Thought I just wanted to write that name and its titles, so cool.

[Dorian Martell]

On 5/12/2016 at 5:27 PM, TheKindlyMan said:

It is a given that the Free Folk, Northmen (with the exception of the Manderlys), and the Blackwoods of Raventree worship the Old Gods, as well as a few converted brothers of the Night's Watch. But are there any other southron houses of First Men lineage that also pray to the Old Gods? Specifically, I am wondering about Houses Royce, Redfort, Gilwood, Dayne, Belmore, Coldwater, Shetts, and Yronwood, which are known to be descendants of the First Men. However, there is no mention of which gods they keep. Do we have any proof for or against the clans of the Mountains of the Moon, descendants of the First Men who so staunchly fought against the Andal invasion of the Vale and continue to resist Andal rule, converting to the Faith which the Andals brought with them?

Any wild guesses will be entertained, any supported theories will be greatly appreciated!

 

The Blackwoods are the only southern house that worships the 7. All the other houses of 1st men origin assimilated into the Andal culture and faith 

[TheSovereignGrave]

1 hour ago, TheKindlyMan said:

That's a fair enough speculation, I'd say, given the fervent nature of the Andal invasion GRRM draws out.

...but wasn't that quote in direct reference to the Clans of the North before Stannis set out to win them to his cause?

The quote was about the Mountain Clans in the North (I think) but he was talking about the Mountain Clans in the Vale when he was asking about whether they still followed the Old Gods. You know, like the Burned Men and Black Ears.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, TheKindlyMan said:

...but wasn't that quote in direct reference to the Clans of the North before Stannis set out to win them to his cause?

Yes, in the quote Jon is referring to the Northern Mountain Clans (Norrey, Wull, Liddle, etc.), and they do worship the old gods. However, that quote was posted in response to my speculation that the Mountain Clans of the Vale (Burned Men, Black Ears, etc.) may worship the old gods, since they have not been assimilated into First Men culture. I just left out the "of the Vale" clarification in my original comment. We have two sets of Mountain clansmen, the Northern set is known to worship the old gods and is (slightly) more civilized than the Valen (?) set, whose practices of worship are largely unknown.

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Yes, in the quote Jon is referring to the Northern Mountain Clans (Norrey, Wull, Liddle, etc.), and they do worship the old gods. However, that quote was posted in response to my speculation that the Mountain Clans of the Vale (Burned Men, Black Ears, etc.) may worship the old gods, since they have not been assimilated into First Men culture. I just left out the "of the Vale" clarification in my original comment. We have two sets of Mountain clansmen, the Northern set is known to worship the old gods and is (slightly) more civilized than the Valen (?) set, whose practices of worship are largely unknown.

That quote was posted in response to the Northern clans. I meant nothing wrt the Vale first men. Given what we know, I assume they are first men through and through. TWOIAF definitely gives that impression.