Jump to content

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl


Melifeather

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I admit that I am trying to decipher an inversion chapter and what I am saying is only suggested in the text. 

I'm not trying to make Robert sound like a fool. He wanted to be king and felt and felt Tywin's support would ensure that he would win, but he was so blinded by his own ambition that he didn't see that he was being played. He wanted the privilege without the responsibilities.

 

I know,he wasn't a fool,disinterested with being a King yes,which by the way is something he never indicated he wanted.I think this one is background future books will reveal.The rebellion was already inplay i think the right catayst occured and it was literally on.Ned said the intention was to "win a crown" and the rose against the Targs to "stop the murder of children." So it would be interesting to see what was the plan.Had the plotters decided it should be Robert or did he just fall into that role.

Alot could be because Robert had Targ blood himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three.

Just commenting on this one point for now. The rest will have to wait until later tonight...

Ned was comparing the dream to real life...at least twice. Immediately after the second comparison he says "yet", which means this time it's different than what happened in real life. Otherwise, why compare if nothing in the dream was different than in real life?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Nah. While there are definitely parallels between Lyanna's and Robert's last moments, Robert, while lying in a bed soaked with blood, is not described as in "a bed of blood". No-one else is, only birthing women. Cf. Damphair:

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. 

BTW, this is the only other occurence, just like "bloody bed" has only one occurence, with MMD, where it is stated explicitely that it means birthing bed. This is deliberate use of language for a single purpose.

 

GRRM confirmed that it was Lyanna. 

 

 

 

I disagree Ygrain the description is in the visual as well and the under pinning to that whole bloody bed is that men take place as a result of the battle field.That's the bloody bed,it was their bloody bed.Women acting the role of soldier in the case of Asha and Brienne were told that their bloody bed shouldn't be on the battle field in should be be the birthing bed.

That's the foundation what the bloody bed should be and who it was initially attributed to under what circumstance and a minority subverting it causing the initial meaning of it to be changed because they are not conforming to gender roles.

Per MMD i read that very different. I think context is everything:

"They passed through a series of anterooms, into the high central chamber under the onion. Faint light shone down through hidden windows above. A few torches burnt smokily from sconces on the walls. Sheepskins were scattered across the mud floor. "There," Mirri Maz Duur said, pointing to the altar, a massive blue-veined stone carved with images of shepherds and their flocks. Khal Drogo lay upon it. The old woman threw a handful of dried leaves onto a brazier, filling the chamber with fragrant smoke. "Best if you wait outside," she told the rest of them.

"We are blood of his blood," Cohollo said. "Here we wait."

Qotho stepped close to Mirri Maz Duur. "Know this, wife of the Lamb God. Harm the khal and you suffer the same." He drew his skinning knife and showed her the blade.

"She will do no harm." Dany felt she could trust this old, plainfaced woman with her flat nose; she had saved her from the hard hands of her rapers, after all.

"If you must stay, then help," Mirri told the bloodriders. "The Great Rider is too strong for me. Hold him still while I draw the arrow from his flesh." She let the rags of her gown fall to her waist as she opened a carved chest, and busied herself with bottles and boxes, knives and needles. When she was ready, she broke off the barbed arrowhead and pulled out the shaft, chanting in the singsong tongue of the Lhazareen. She heated a flagon of wine to boiling on the brazier, and poured it over his wounds. Khal Drogo cursed her, but he did not move. She bound the arrow wound with a plaster of wet leaves and turned to the gash on his breast, smearing it with a pale green paste before she pulled the flap of skin back in place."

(She gives Drogo instructions,he gives her bravado then)

"Before," Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, "I heard you speak of birthing songs …"
"I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe," Mirri Maz Duur replied.

That her reference to bloody means birthing bed...I wouldn't be so sure.

Its kind of redundant don't you think? If she bloody bed means exclusively birthing bed,there's no need for her to say she's never lost a babe if she knows all the secret of the birthing bed.

 

Lastly,can you link where GRRM said it was Lyanna's name Rhaegar whisphered.Even though there's no context to analyze i would still like to see where he said it was definitely her name Rhaegar whisphered.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, nanother said:

Symbolic evidence is nice, but these books have actual characters with their thoughts, deeds and motivation. Any theory will have to work on both levels. So far, it seems to me that your theory clashes on several points with what we know of the characters, so I have to conclude that your inversion theory does not apply to this particular issue. Of course, if you provide substantial evidence that what (we think) we know is likely to be false, I'll happily change my mind.

I don't mean to belittle your work - I think it's a great idea to try to figure out how far these inversions go, and I really appreciate the work you put into it. But it's also important to be aware that they'll almost certainly not be rigid parallels/inversions taken all the way. Like a musical theme might come back in straight imitations, fragments, inversions, or slightly modified to fit the harmony better, I'd expect the themes in Martin's books appear in similarly varied ways.

BTW, Cersei aborting Robert's child was in the books, she had Jaime find someone to take care of it, but what does that have to do with anything?

While that's techically true so far, the groundwork has been laid for it to have a wider meaning. Plenty of parallels between men in battle and women in the birthing bed, Lyanna defying womanly stereotypes, the parallel between her and Robert dying ... you're just as likely to get infected and feverish from a stab wound, if it's not treated properly, than from chidbirth. So, with two more books still to come, I think it'd be wise to leave the possibility open.

Haha, yes, quite possible. I do think the name  was Lyanna, simply because if it was anything else then I'd expect Dany to start questioning the love story she'd been told, but yeah, I like this version of the events.

Dunno. Robert was a man very well aware of his flaws, even though he preferred not to admit them. He lacked the finesse and the attention span to be part of such a plot and then pretend otherwise for the rest of his life. Both Cersei and Tywin call him stupid at some point. I don't recall anything in Cersei's thoughts that wasn't about Jaime or Rhaegar. I agree that Ned's has a large degree of blindness to Robert's nature, but I think it's less a skillful manipulation on Robert's part and more Ned's fondness and admiration for him coloring his view.

Umm, perhaps he knew because once the gates were open, his father started sacking the city? He even asked Aerys's leave to negotiate, only opted for killing Rossart and Aerys when he saw they weren't going to be sensible about it. Well, that's what he tells Brienne anyway.

This. Jon's parentage is just a part of the bigger picture of what went down and why during Robert's rebellion, and what that all has to do with the current game of thrones and the coming winter. It's an important part, I'm sure, but looking at all these XYJ debates, one gets the impression that these books must all be about Jon's parentage, which seems a bit excessive to me.

Now, this also implies that there shouldn't be anything wrong with RLJ being obvious per se, instead, there should be a correlation between the layers of obscurity cast over Jon's origins and the importance of the revelation. So, if the whole fate of Westeros is supposed to hinge upon RLJ, then it might indeed be too obvious (I didn't find it obvious myself until I gained the power of hindsight, and sounds like a lot of other people didn't either, so I'm not too sure how obvious it really is). If it plays into the events in more subtle ways, then it might be just right. I don't know what to make Parris's opinion without seeing the actual exchanges where she stated it. I'd count it as evidence against RLJ, strength to be determined when/if someone provides exact quotes.

At the risk of derailing my own thread I should provide at least a few examples to demonstrate why I think the Soiled Knight and the Queenmaker chapters apply to Cersei, Robert, and any other co-conspirators.

Arianne is the eldest child of Doran who is concerned that her younger brother will inherit her father's seat, while Cersei is Tywin's eldest child and she's angry that her younger brother will inherit her father's seat.

Arys Oakheart's home is Old Oak on the western coast, north of the Shield Islands which protect access to the Mander river, while Robert Baratheon's home is Storm's End on the eastern coast, and south of Massey's Hook which protects access to the Blackwater river.

Doran Martell is Arianne's father, and he likes to watch children play in the Water Gardens, while Tywin Lannister is Cersei's father. He diverted a stream into Castamere and stayed to watch for three days until 300 Reyne men, women, and children drowned.

Arianne's friends are Garin, Drey, and Spotted Sylva:

Garin

Arianne called Garin her milk brother, and Darkstar called him "Garin the Great. Wonder of the Rhoyne". 

Jaime is Cersei's twin milk brother, and Garin is a historical lord credited with drowning his enemies. "The great" is in reference to Jaime's infamous tale for slaying King Aerys II, "the Kingslayer". Gairin was imprisoned in a golden cage, while Jaime's armor was gold, his family mines for gold, and his app't to the Kingsguard is his "cage".

Drey

Drey is Ser Andrey Dalt, brother and heir of Ser Deziel Dalt who is the Knight of Lemonwood. He and Arianne experimented sexually when they were younger. After the kidnapping he's exiled and placed into service with Doran's estranged wife, Lady Mellario.

Drey's inversion is pure speculation at this point. I suspect he is Lem Lemoncloak, which may also be an assumed identity for Arthur Dayne. This one is a longer explanation of symbolism, which I can go into later.

Spotted Sylva

Sylva Santagar is the Knight of the Spottswood. Her nickname “Spotted” is from her freckles and because she’s the heir of Ser Symon Santagar, Lord of Spottswood.

Cersei's childhood friend was Melara Hetherspoon. Cersei remembers her as having freckles and being healthy as a little horse. It is suspected that Cersei pushed her down a well. Wenda the White Fawn was a known member of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Fawns are dappled with spots. Myrcella escaped Sunspear by painting red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund. Some readers suspect Wenda was Lyanna, who was called "half a horse", so a girl with spots symbolizes a dead girl.

There are more parallels, but I think this is a good start.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The wedding is always Cersei's thoughts. She thinks that the only time she was ever wet for Robert was on their wedding night, which pretty much seals that this was the first time they had sex, and she found him hot until "Lyanna".

Nah. While there are definitely parallels between Lyanna's and Robert's last moments, Robert, while lying in a bed soaked with blood, is not described as in "a bed of blood". No-one else is, only birthing women. Cf. Damphair:

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. 

BTW, this is the only other occurence, just like "bloody bed" has only one occurence, with MMD, where it is stated explicitely that it means birthing bed. This is deliberate use of language for a single purpose.

 

GRRM confirmed that it was Lyanna. 

What exactly do you mean by "suggested"? An existence of an inversed scenario does not equal an existence of textual support that something really happened.

And in hindsight, we see how these machinations are hinted at, even though the PoV character through whose eyes we see them is completely in the dark about the meaning of the little details that they see. I see no such hints towards your proposed scenario, do you have any?

See above.

Excuse me but it doesn't. Look at the text again:

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

There are two levels in the narration of the dream - its actual content (blue), and a sort of meta-level narrative voice commenting convergences as well as divergences of the dream and reality (red). The sentence "Yet these were no ordinary three" is a separate somment, and it is not a meta comment, because it belongs to the gradual information reveal of "who is who". We are first shown Ned's friends; the seven. His friends, but ordinary guys, no special abilities mentioned. Then we are told they faced three, and follows an introduction of the three: no ordinary guys but stuff of legends, the Kingsguard. "Yet" represents here the contrast between the two groups, and it is also an explanation why the seven nearly got beaten by three guys. 

Huh? Are you under an impression that Ned was that kind of military commander who would leave the dead to the crows? Namely one who died in a honourable duel? Or that the Targ loyalists who were captured and bent knee wouldn't insist on paying Rhaegar the last rites? 

Though, there might be something to talk about concerning the way Rhaegar's cremation was arranged - when asked what happened with Rhaegar's body and who took care of it, GRRM went like, " time's out, must be going, Rhaegar was cremated, bye". Hard to tell whether he was just in a hurry, or if they touched upon something he wanted to avoid.

But, be careful with those parallels - something happening in A in no way means that it happened in B.

It's still using the same ruse twice, and very unlikely, anyway, because with someone like Rhaegar, it would be highly desirable to make sure for everyone that this is him, he's dead and not coming back.

And you are really focused on recreating the scenario without realizing all the troubles with logistics involved in transporting an unwilling she-wolf for weeks at best.

The wedding is always Cersei's thoughts.

Cersei told these details to Ned.

What exactly do you mean by "suggested"?

The inversion chapters are fully intended by the author, but deciphering them relies upon recognizing all the parallels and known inversions, and understanding the symbolism, then the reader has to do their best to interpret the information. 

Here's a good example...a quote from The Queenmaker and a conversation between Arianne and Darkstar:

Darkstar gets Arianne’s attention by calling her Princess. He stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow:


“How was your piss?” she asks. 

“The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue of the Maiden who’s likeness had been scoured away by the sands. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.

 

Lets pause and contemplate that Dayne had his foot upon the head of the maiden! GRRM is using just the last name, “Dayne” so I believe he is telling us that he is pointing his finger directly at Arthur here. 

The statue head is meant to evoke a human skull. The most common symbolic use of the skull is a representation of death and mortality. Our author is telling us that Arthur is to blame for Lyanna’s death. Even more telling is the use of the foot on the skull. Our feet have direct contact with mother earth, and a foot inside a shoe is a euphemism for the genitals with the foot representing the penis and the shoe the vulva. Is this symbolic evidence that Dayne is Arthur and that he is the father of Lyanna’s child, or did he merely rape her? Whatever he did, it appears that he is at fault in some way, just as Darkstar attacked Myrcella.

And in hindsight, we see how these machinations are hinted at

I can agree with this that it is difficult to see the clues as we come across them and only find them in hindsight. These inversion chapters are such clues for the future story and future reveals.

and it is also an explanation why the seven nearly got beaten by three guys. 

A surprise attack by archers could have taken many of Ned's men down. We've read as much regarding Moat Caitlin.

Are you under an impression that Ned was that kind of military commander who would leave the dead to the crows?

Ned wasn't the one that killed him. Robert did. Ned was in Robert's van and likely already far ahead of Robert. He beat Robert to Kings Landing by a few days, IIRC>

unwilling she-wolf for weeks at best.

Rhaegar is thought to have kidnapped her also. This would apply to him as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, first, Parris has said this sort of thing on multiple occasions, going back at least a dozen years.  If she was "having a bit of fun at someone's expense," it happened quite a few times.

I've read about two (separate?) stories. 1) "RLJ is too obvious." 2) "evil little smile." Or something along those lines.

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Second, at the time she started saying this -- 2003 at the latest -- R+L=J was only a theory, not a cult.  So she wouldn't necessarily have perceived it as giving away "GRRM's greatest twist" because the fandom wasn't nearly as obsessive and foolish as it is today.

Right. There was no Sable Hall back then.

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Third, there's no way to establish that it is GRRM's greatest twist even now.  The fandom has arbitrarily chosen to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy in discussing Jon's parentage, but GRRM has a far larger story to tell.  The premise that Jon is (due to R+L=J) the song of ice and fire, and therefore the whole series is about him, and therefore his parentage (if not Rhaegar and Lyanna) must be the greatest twist in the series, and therefore Parris wouldn't have "given it away," is a classic instance of circular reasoning.

Okay, let's say I exaggerated, and it's only a really big twist that GRRM set up. The same point still applies about undermining the twist. One that GRRM went to great lengths to set up, especially if RLJ isn't true.

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Fourth, it can't even be demonstrated that Parris knows who Jon's parents are.  She's certainly never said any such thing, in any account I've read.  So we can't conclude she would have known she was giving anything away... even if she was.

I never said she knew. And as far as I know, the story is that GRRM hasn't told her. However, if she suspected that RLJ wasn't true, I still question why she would share that info with a fan base that had been largely fooled.

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I couldn't agree more! There are much bigger twists in store than who Jon's parents are. If I am correct that Robert participated in Lyanna's abduction, that would be a huge revelation! I am also anticipating a Citadel conspiracy, the full details of I haven't uncovered yet, but I think I've stumbled upon some early inklings...still investigating this one.

It seems to me like (some of) you want to have it both ways. On the one hand, GRRM went to a lot of trouble to obscure Jon's parentage. Especially if you assume R+L=/=J, because that means RLJ is an additional layer of misdirection. Yet you also want to argue that Jon's parentage isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Sorry, I don't buy it for a second, regardless of whether Jon's dad is Rhaegar, Robert or Arthur.

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Are you speaking about us as readers or are you speaking about the characters? It would certainly serve as Red Herrings to the characters because its just bad information.We are coming at this diferently from the characters so the Red herring scope should be a bit tighter to involve the unreliable narrator.

Red herrings are for the audience.

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You have repeatedly stated that RLJ cannot be a red herring because no one in text ever suggested it,that you have to give a name for it to be a Red herrring..........That is wrong.

I wouldn't say it has to be named per se. The whole point of a red herring is to misdirect the audience. That said, what good is a red herring if it doesn't (at least attempt to) mislead the audience? If a large portion of the readers don't know about RLJ, it can't mislead them. Right?

I've said before, and I'll say again, if RLJ isn't true I fully expect it to be introduced into the text as a false solution. That is, someone will incorrectly figure out that Jon must be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ashara,Wylla,FMD and Ned wouldn't be Red herrings because the text "names" them as Jon's parents.It is that whole naming thing you guys came up with that's off.

I completely disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

It seems to me like (some of) you want to have it both ways. On the one hand, GRRM went to a lot of trouble to obscure Jon's parentage. Especially if you assume R+L=/=J, because that means RLJ is an additional layer of misdirection. Yet you also want to argue that Jon's parentage isn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Sorry, I don't buy it for a second, regardless of whether Jon's dad is Rhaegar, Robert or Arthur.

I'm actually not proposing a solution for Jon's parents as I'm not even sure who they are, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna wasn't even his mother. What I am saying is that it would be a bigger twist to reveal that Robert, who Ned felt was like a brother to him, was responsible for, not only Lyanna's disappearance, but think about all the deaths that came afterward. Her brother Brandon, her father Rickard, actually Ned too if you think about it, Ned's men, etc...nearly the whole of House Stark. Winterfell is broken without a Stark in residence.

Recall the dead mother direwolf scene. She had an antler through her throat with broken tines. Robert the stag killed Ned and Catelyn the direwolf parents, leaving orphan pups, before causing his own death and the deaths of his brothers. George gave us the whole story in symbolic form right from the get-go in Game of Thrones. The level of deceit and betrayal involved is a much bigger plot twist than the identity of a single character's parents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm actually not proposing a solution for Jon's parents as I'm not even sure who they are, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna wasn't even his mother. What I am saying is that it would be a bigger twist to reveal that Robert, who Ned felt was like a brother to him, was responsible for, not only Lyanna's disappearance, but think about all the deaths that came afterward. Her brother Brandon, her father Rickard, actually Ned too if you think about it, Ned's men, etc...nearly the whole of House Stark. Winterfell is broken without a Stark in residence.

Recall the dead mother direwolf scene. She had an antler through her throat with broken tines. Robert the stag killed Ned and Catelyn the direwolf parents, leaving orphan pups, before causing his own death and the deaths of his brothers. George gave us the whole story in symbolic form right from the get-go in Game of Thrones. The level of deceit and betrayal involved is a much bigger plot twist than the identity of a single character's parents.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Just commenting on this one point for now. The rest will have to wait until later tonight...

Ned was comparing the dream to real life...at least twice. Immediately after the second comparison he says "yet", which means this time it's different than what happened in real life. Otherwise, why compare if nothing in the dream was different than in real life?

WUT?! There are clearly dream elements, e.g his friends looking like wraights, nor does the convo necessarily be a recording of the real-life conversation.

The text goes: narrative level - switch to meta level - "YET" back to narrative level. In other words, the sequence goes, They were seven against three. Yet those were no ordinary three. Here is where the contrast belongs, pointing out the extreme importance and skill of the three.

 

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The wedding is always Cersei's thoughts.

Cersei told these details to Ned.

She didn't share the fact of her arousal with him, though.

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

What exactly do you mean by "suggested"?

The inversion chapters are fully intended by the author, but deciphering them relies upon recognizing all the parallels and known inversions, and understanding the symbolism, then the reader has to do their best to interpret the information. 

Here's a good example...a quote from The Queenmaker and a conversation between Arianne and Darkstar:

Darkstar gets Arianne’s attention by calling her Princess. He stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow:


“How was your piss?” she asks. 

“The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue of the Maiden who’s likeness had been scoured away by the sands. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.

 

Lets pause and contemplate that Dayne had his foot upon the head of the maiden! GRRM is using just the last name, “Dayne” so I believe he is telling us that he is pointing his finger directly at Arthur here. 

The statue head is meant to evoke a human skull. The most common symbolic use of the skull is a representation of death and mortality. Our author is telling us that Arthur is to blame for Lyanna’s death. Even more telling is the use of the foot on the skull. Our feet have direct contact with mother earth, and a foot inside a shoe is a euphemism for the genitals with the foot representing the penis and the shoe the vulva. Is this symbolic evidence that Dayne is Arthur and that he is the father of Lyanna’s child, or did he merely rape her? Whatever he did, it appears that he is at fault in some way, just as Darkstar attacked Myrcella.

This is one of the most convoluted and far-fetched interpretations I have ever seen on this boards. It is way more likely that the Maiden is  Myrcella, who might already have, or will, die as a result of Darkstar's scheme. Placing one's foot on someone's head is a gesture of victory/domination, and since the scene doesn't highlight anything about shoes and the like, there is no sexual context here, a cigar - sorry, a shoe - is just a shoe (albeit one not even mentioned here). You want a sexual metaphor, you have Rhaegar placing the laurel of blue roses into Lyanna's lap with the tip of his lance.

 

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

And in hindsight, we see how these machinations are hinted at

I can agree with this that it is difficult to see the clues as we come across them and only find them in hindsight. These inversion chapters are such clues for the future story and future reveals.

No, something being an inversion doesn't constitute as a clue. You yet have to prove that this "inversion" was actually reallized by the author. If we go back to the example of plotting the Red Wedding, we have e.g. Tywin writing some mysterious correspondence, and Roose receiving some, and Roose's talk with Jaime, though neither Tywion, nor Arya, nor Jaime himself see the big picture. If you want to prove that Lyanna's abduction was due to a scheme of Tywin's, show passage yielding such bits of info.

 

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

and it is also an explanation why the seven nearly got beaten by three guys. 

A surprise attack by archers could have taken many of Ned's men down. We've read as much regarding Moat Caitlin.

Transforming such a surprise attack into a ritualized convo and swordfight with people who weren't even there makes zero sense even for a fever dream as a literary device.

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Are you under an impression that Ned was that kind of military commander who would leave the dead to the crows?

Ned wasn't the one that killed him. Robert did. Ned was in Robert's van and likely already far ahead of Robert. He beat Robert to Kings Landing by a few days, IIRC>

And Ned arrived at the place of the duel after it took place (when he arrived, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream and men of both armies were looking for the rubies). It is also nowhere stated that Ned marched to KL right after the duel, there had to be at least some decision-making process between him, Robert and Jon Arryn.

Also, Robert couldn't have been that far away behind Ned, because the bodies of Rhaegar's children would have been nastily decompsing in between.

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

unwilling she-wolf for weeks at best.

Rhaegar is thought to have kidnapped her also. This would apply to him as well.

Which is yet further indication that she wasn't unwilling, for those who knew Lyanna.

BTW, isn't it curious that the non-Stark PoVs mentioning Lyanna never speak about abduction by force or rape? The closest we get is Dany, who, however, wishes for Daario to swoop in and carry her away, just like Rhaegar did with his northern girl, and this definitely doesn't imply that Dany would be unwilling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

WUT?! There are clearly dream elements, e.g his friends looking like wraights, nor does the convo necessarily be a recording of the real-life conversation.

The text goes: narrative level - switch to meta level - "YET" back to narrative level. In other words, the sequence goes, They were seven against three. Yet those were no ordinary three. Here is where the contrast belongs, pointing out the extreme importance and skill of the three.

 

She didn't share the fact of her arousal with him, though.

This is one of the most convoluted and far-fetched interpretations I have ever seen on this boards. It is way more likely that the Maiden is  Myrcella, who might already have, or will, die as a result of Darkstar's scheme. Placing one's foot on someone's head is a gesture of victory/domination, and since the scene doesn't highlight anything about shoes and the like, there is no sexual context here, a cigar - sorry, a shoe - is just a shoe (albeit one not even mentioned here). You want a sexual metaphor, you have Rhaegar placing the laurel of blue roses into Lyanna's lap with the tip of his lance.

 

No, something being an inversion doesn't constitute as a clue. You yet have to prove that this "inversion" was actually reallized by the author. If we go back to the example of plotting the Red Wedding, we have e.g. Tywin writing some mysterious correspondence, and Roose receiving some, and Roose's talk with Jaime, though neither Tywion, nor Arya, nor Jaime himself see the big picture. If you want to prove that Lyanna's abduction was due to a scheme of Tywin's, show passage yielding such bits of info.

 

Transforming such a surprise attack into a ritualized convo and swordfight with people who weren't even there makes zero sense even for a fever dream as a literary device.

(when he arrived, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream and men of both armies were looking for the rubies). It is also nowhere stated that Ned marched to KL right after the duel, there had to be at least some decision-making process between him, Robert and Jon Arryn.

Also, Robert couldn't have been that far away behind Ned, because the bodies of Rhaegar's children would have been nastily decompsing in between.

Which is yet further indication that she wasn't unwilling, for those who knew Lyanna.

BTW, isn't it curious that the non-Stark PoVs mentioning Lyanna never speak about abduction by force or rape? The closest we get is Dany, who, however, wishes for Daario to swoop in and carry her away, just like Rhaegar did with his northern girl, and this definitely doesn't imply that Dany would be unwilling.

This is one of the most convoluted and far-fetched interpretations I have ever seen on this boards.

On the contrary. The explanation of the symbolism was taken from psychological sources.

If you want to prove that Lyanna's abduction was due to a scheme of Tywin's, show passage yielding such bits of info.

The inversion chapters are the only sources that I know of, but laying the whole thing out would take several pages. I've already written chapter analysis for several inversion chapters, which you can read by clicking on the links in my signature.

And Ned arrived at the place of the duel after it took place

Can you help me locate this passage? My recollection has him ahead of Robert.

isn't it curious that the non-Stark PoVs mentioning Lyanna never speak about abduction by force or rape?

No, I don't find this curious at all. It's actually very common and natural to want to believe your own side was righteous. The victors who write the history books show the defeated as villains, while the defeated remember their side as having honorable intentions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thank you for the props! 

:cheers:

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Was Cersei telling someone her "official" wedding night memories, or were they thoughts? I'm sure once she had what she wanted (queen) and after Robert said Lyanna's name, there was no reason to keep up the seduction. 

Her later memories of sex with Robert really seem like she did not want him. That she had no idea what he would be like. Same with Robert's statements about her. She wanted Rhaegar or Jaime. Never Robert. And he did not want her--he wanted Lyanna.

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think there is evidence to suggest that Robert wasn't who people thought he was. The charismatic leader is often a cover for a narcissist. Whenever Robert didn't get his way we witnessed his anger. Ned discovered the real Robert while he was Hand and feared for his life enough to pack everything up and prepare to go home. They argued over a lot of things, and Ned quite frankly was shocked, because he didn't realize Robert was this way. But I'm not giving Robert any credit for plotting, because I agree with you that he wasn't good at it. The Lannisters did all the plotting. He was just their willing pawn.

I agree that Robert was not who Ned thought he was--he wasn't as strong or as honorable. But he finds that out because Robert is impulsive and temperamental and fails to live up to Ned's imagination of him. Not because Robert actively deceives anyone. Robert as presented is terrible at subterfuge--that's a big part of the problem. So, if he were working with the Lannisters during the war, he would have to be able to control that information when he can control nothing else.

Either that, or he was being used by them without his knowledge. This I could potentially buy--Tywin stays out of the war until the moment he knows who has won--if he's playing both sides, then this move makes perfect sense. Robert wins--Tywin jumps in and sacks King's Landing and makes Cersei queen. Rhaegar comes out the hero, Tywin jumps in, helps depose Aerys, and poor sickly Elia gets suddenly sicker--and then Cersei becomes queen.

22 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Tywin toyed with the idea of supporting Rhaegar as evidenced by his words regarding Duskendale, but that last insult by Aerys about not marrying to a servant was the straw that broke the camels back. I think he had made up his mind at that moment that nothing would do but complete annihilation on par with the Tarbecks and Reynes.

But Harrenhal shows that Rhaegar is definitely willing to depose his father. And really, the only way to depose a king is to kill that king and let nature decompose him.

So, why would Tywin want to eliminate the son of his enemy if that son is willing to help eliminate the enemy? That sounds like the perfect person to work with if Tywin wants to keep his hands clean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

At the risk of derailing my own thread I should provide at least a few examples to demonstrate why I think the Soiled Knight and the Queenmaker chapters apply to Cersei, Robert, and any other co-conspirators.

Arianne is the eldest child of Doran who is concerned that her younger brother will inherit her father's seat, while Cersei is Tywin's eldest child and she's angry that her younger brother will inherit her father's seat.

Arys Oakheart's home is Old Oak on the western coast, north of the Shield Islands which protect access to the Mander river, while Robert Baratheon's home is Storm's End on the eastern coast, and south of Massey's Hook which protects access to the Blackwater river.

Doran Martell is Arianne's father, and he likes to watch children play in the Water Gardens, while Tywin Lannister is Cersei's father. He diverted a stream into Castamere and stayed to watch for three days until 300 Reyne men, women, and children drowned.

Arianne's friends are Garin, Drey, and Spotted Sylva:

Garin

Arianne called Garin her milk brother, and Darkstar called him "Garin the Great. Wonder of the Rhoyne". 

Jaime is Cersei's twin milk brother, and Garin is a historical lord credited with drowning his enemies. "The great" is in reference to Jaime's infamous tale for slaying King Aerys II, "the Kingslayer". Gairin was imprisoned in a golden cage, while Jaime's armor was gold, his family mines for gold, and his app't to the Kingsguard is his "cage".

Drey

Drey is Ser Andrey Dalt, brother and heir of Ser Deziel Dalt who is the Knight of Lemonwood. He and Arianne experimented sexually when they were younger. After the kidnapping he's exiled and placed into service with Doran's estranged wife, Lady Mellario.

Drey's inversion is pure speculation at this point. I suspect he is Lem Lemoncloak, which may also be an assumed identity for Arthur Dayne. This one is a longer explanation of symbolism, which I can go into later.

Spotted Sylva

Sylva Santagar is the Knight of the Spottswood. Her nickname “Spotted” is from her freckles and because she’s the heir of Ser Symon Santagar, Lord of Spottswood.

Cersei's childhood friend was Melara Hetherspoon. Cersei remembers her as having freckles and being healthy as a little horse. It is suspected that Cersei pushed her down a well. Wenda the White Fawn was a known member of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Fawns are dappled with spots. Myrcella escaped Sunspear by painting red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund. Some readers suspect Wenda was Lyanna, who was called "half a horse", so a girl with spots symbolizes a dead girl.

There are more parallels, but I think this is a good start.

Thanks for posting that. I saw your threads, but never got around reading them. The Doran-Tywin comparison is an interesting one, but (correct me if I'm wrong) it seems more like a mix of parallels and inversions to me, no? And there are certainly parallels between Arianne and Cersei, but Asha is also in a very similar situation - why exclude her? Undeniably, there are recognisable echoes (inverted or not) of past events in the present-day story, but I still don't see why every single thing that these characters do has to have an (inverted?) counterpart in the past. Also, even much of the symbolic evidence you bring up seems a bit far-fetched ... in a work as massive and complex as ASoIaF, I reckon that symbolic 'evidence' of that strength can be found for just about anything. OTOH we have (so far) zero clues from the characters actually participating in these past events that they acted the way you say they had to, based on these parallels/inversions.

Is there a good reason to think Tywin had a hand in sparking the rebellion? Sure. That he had a hand in Lyanna's disappearance? Quite possibly. But is there any evidence from the characters who were around at the time that it happened anything like the way you suggest? Not that I've seen.

16 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nah. While there are definitely parallels between Lyanna's and Robert's last moments, Robert, while lying in a bed soaked with blood, is not described as in "a bed of blood". No-one else is, only birthing women. Cf. Damphair:

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. 

BTW, this is the only other occurence, just like "bloody bed" has only one occurence, with MMD, where it is stated explicitely that it means birthing bed. This is deliberate use of language for a single purpose.

All I'm saying, the groundwork has been laid. I agree that so far that seems to be the only way it's used in the books. I even agree that it's more likely to stay that way than not. However, I maintain that with such a small sample size, with real-world meaning of the phrase extending to violent death, and the parallels presented in the books, we can't be sure just yet.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

And Ned arrived at the place of the duel after it took place

Can you help me locate this passage? My recollection has him ahead of Robert.

Quote

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

(AGoT Ned I)

He gets ahead of Robert on the way to KL as Robert is injured.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So, why would Tywin want to eliminate the son of his enemy if that son is willing to help eliminate the enemy? That sounds like the perfect person to work with if Tywin wants to keep his hands clean.

Tywin wanted his revenge, and he found a suitable replacement that he could marry his daughter to. Simple as that.

12 minutes ago, nanother said:

Also, even much of the symbolic evidence you bring up seems a bit far-fetched ... in a work as massive and complex as ASoIaF, I reckon that symbolic 'evidence' of that strength can be found for just about anything. OTOH we have (so far) zero clues from the characters actually participating in these past events that they acted the way you say they had to, based on these parallels/inversions.

Is there a good reason to think Tywin had a hand in sparking the rebellion? Sure. That he had a hand in Lyanna's disappearance? Quite possibly. But is there any evidence from the characters who were around at the time that it happened anything like the way you suggest? Not that I've seen.

I do have a larger, over arcing theory that has to do with the warding on the Wall, and it's this closing and reopening of the hinge that has caused the inversions. I'll try to condense my thoughts as much as possible...

The story of Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm Lord, who married Elenei, I believe is actually the oral history of the containment and warding of magic after the Long Night. Elenei was the daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind. IMO this is a symbolic telling of how magic (Elenei) was stolen (warded) from two gods.

Melisandre tells us that the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world. A hinge holds a door, and that door is what is holding back or containing magic, which was free and carried about by the sea and wind in Westeros prior to the end of the Long Night. It was contained for the benefit of mankind as symbolized by Elenei taking human form.

Aeron Damphair has a disturbing memory of Euron and a squeaky iron hinge. To me "squeaky" means it's old, and "iron" means it's warded, so my theory is based up something being done to the warding of the hinge at the Wall. The spells have been unraveled, likely due to blood sacrifice.

The reopening of the warding on the Wall means the hinge has been opened. The physical structure of the Wall is obviously still there, but the warding has been undone. The opening of the hinge has caused the inversions. There is another factor in play and that Westeros operates on a wheel of time. I've come across various passages that discuss how the same situations come up and the same families relive these same situations. How many times have we read someone has been reborn or come again? The Targaryens are the example we've been given. We can read about how one ancestor is nearly identical to another. Well, with the hinge open it has caused destiny to flip. Imagine Westeros like a big rock that has been turned over. West is now east, and the north is upside down. The Greyjoys and Targaryens have flipped places, as well as the Lannisters and Martells. If you read the inversion chapters you will see the Greyjoys are going after dragons to conquer Westeros like the Targaryens did, and you have the Martells acting like the Lannisters, doing covert things trying to get their people in positions of power.

12 minutes ago, nanother said:

He gets ahead of Robert on the way to KL as Robert is injured.

Thank you for the passage. That is the one I wanted. But there is no mention that Ned did anything with Rhaegar's body nor anyone else there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

This is one of the most convoluted and far-fetched interpretations I have ever seen on this boards.

On the contrary. The explanation of the symbolism was taken from psychological sources.

I am not questioning the symbolism as such but its application to events to which it has no bearing. 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If you want to prove that Lyanna's abduction was due to a scheme of Tywin's, show passage yielding such bits of info.

The inversion chapters are the only sources that I know of, but laying the whole thing out would take several pages. I've already written chapter analysis for several inversion chapters, which you can read by clicking on the links in my signature.

In other words: except the chapters which you consider to be inversions, you don't have any textual basis for what you claim.

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

And Ned arrived at the place of the duel after it took place

Can you help me locate this passage? My recollection has him ahead of Robert.

 

My thanks to nanother for quoting the passage.

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

isn't it curious that the non-Stark PoVs mentioning Lyanna never speak about abduction by force or rape?

No, I don't find this curious at all. It's actually very common and natural to want to believe your own side was righteous. The victors who write the history books show the defeated as villains, while the defeated remember their side as having honorable intentions.

You seem to have forgotten that Lannisters are the winning side yet Cersei or Kevan do not seem to recall any rape when they think of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Kevan thinks that Rhaegar wought Lyanna because he wanted more sons, which is a really unusual motive for a rapist, and when he thinks that Cersei would have given him those sons, he doesn't add that unlike Lyanna, she would have been willing. Or we have Jorah who compares Dany rescuing women from rape to Rhaegar, which would again be a very weird train of thought if he believed Rhaegar to be a rapist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I am not questioning the symbolism as such but its application to events to which it has no bearing. 

In other words: except the chapters which you consider to be inversions, you don't have any textual basis for what you claim.

My thanks to nanother for quoting the passage.

You seem to have forgotten that Lannisters are the winning side yet Cersei or Kevan do not seem to recall any rape when they think of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Kevan thinks that Rhaegar wought Lyanna because he wanted more sons, which is a really unusual motive for a rapist, and when he thinks that Cersei would have given him those sons, he doesn't add that unlike Lyanna, she would have been willing. Or we have Jorah who compares Dany rescuing women from rape to Rhaegar, which would again be a very weird train of thought if he believed Rhaegar to be a rapist.

In other words: except the chapters which you consider to be inversions, you don't have any textual basis for what you claim.

I didn't say that. This may take some time to put together,  however.

You seem to have forgotten that Lannisters are the winning side yet Cersei or Kevan do not seem to recall any rape when they think of Rhaegar and Lyanna

Because they know what really happened, that they set Rhaegar up to take the fall. I'll put something together, but I need some time when I'm at home to gather evidence. I'm at work right now, so cannot really do this any justice at the moment.

Jorah who compares Dany rescuing women from rape to Rhaegar

I haven't implicated Jorah as being part of the conspiracy. He would know nothing other than what the "official" story was believed to be.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

In other words: except the chapters which you consider to be inversions, you don't have any textual basis for what you claim.

I didn't say that. This may take some time to put together,  however.

Funny, you are working backwards then - first theory, then clues. Curiouser and curiouser.

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You seem to have forgotten that Lannisters are the winning side yet Cersei or Kevan do not seem to recall any rape when they think of Rhaegar and Lyanna

Because they know what really happened, that they set Rhaegar up to take the fall. I'll put something together, but I need some time when I'm at home to gather evidence. I'm at work right now, so cannot really do this any justice at the moment.

So Kevan is now on the conspiracy, too? But, if Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna, why does Kevan think "Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark"? Is he hiding the conspiracy from himself?

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jorah who compares Dany rescuing women from rape to Rhaegar

I haven't implicated Jorah as being part of the conspiracy. He would know nothing other than what the "official" story was believed to be.

That's kinda my point - so, according to you, Jorah believes that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, but compliments Dany after saving Eroeh from further rape that she reminds him of Rhaegar? What kind of logic is this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Funny, you are working backwards then - first theory, then clues. Curiouser and curiouser.

So Kevan is now on the conspiracy, too? But, if Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna, why does Kevan think "Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark"? Is he hiding the conspiracy from himself?

That's kinda my point - so, according to you, Jorah believes that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, but compliments Dany after saving Eroeh from further rape that she reminds him of Rhaegar? What kind of logic is this?

Sorry to be confusing you! Three things you said made me laugh, because they are parts that I left out due to length, and I was trying to condense the theory to be centered on Tywin, but this is a much more expansive theory.

First the curiouser and curiouser...if you only knew how ironic this is you'd laugh too. The over arcing theory that I summarized for Nanother involves thirty chapters spread out over AFFC and ADWD. My opening essay that details the project uses Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass (thus the chuckle) as a metaphor to help explain my theory about the warding on the Wall being removed and the hinge opened, because the evidence is there to support this. It's hard to demonstrate for others what I'm talking about without walking through at least two or three of the chapters.

Kevan was involved as I mentioned above. I perhaps didn't focus on him enough if you are thinking this is coming out of nowhere. Kevan organized raiding parties that took nobles as hostages. This is a known fact. He was Tywin's right hand man and likely knew more than anyone save Tywin himself. Kevan is also very fond of his niece and naturally thought she was the right match for Rhaegar, so any thoughts about that are actually justification for what they did...like, Aerys should have accepted the match. 

As for the "damning" line about Rhaegar not looking at Lyanna...I hesitate to give you my answer, because I think I know how'd react anyways, but the opening of the hinge has caused false memories. Layering a new reality over the old one, plus there's the very real scientific fact about memories: they cannot be trusted:

Memory retrieval is even more mysterious than storage. When I ask if you know Alex Ritchie, the answer is immediately obvious to you, and there is no good theory to explain how memory retrieval can happen so quickly. Moreover, the act of retrieval can destabilize the memory. When you recall a past event, the memory becomes temporarily susceptible to erasure. Some intriguing recent experiments show it is possible to chemically block memories from reforming during that window, suggesting new ethical questions that require careful consideration.

10 Unsolved Mysteries of the Brain

False memories are common

"That is, witnesses who discuss an event with a co-witness are very likely to incorporate misinformation presented by the co-witness into their own memory for the event," she said.

"Once their memory has been contaminated in this way, the witness is often unable to distinguish between the accurate and inaccurate memories.

My links didn't transfer with the copy and paste, so if you want to read more you can reach the links through this post:

As for Jorah...I have another theory that I'm working about regarding him, but it will have to wait until it's finished...lets just say he may have a part in the conspiracy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/15/2016 at 8:00 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What?

 

On 5/15/2016 at 8:38 AM, Ygrain said:

Seconding JQC. 

And I am truly amazed how much effort you placed into this joke.

 

On 5/15/2016 at 9:34 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I don't think it's a joke, and it wasn't meant as a joke. 

Are there particular aspects where you feel you can provide contradicting evidence?

 

On 5/15/2016 at 9:44 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Οh sweet summer Ygrain. I hope that you are right!

Basic logic.

 

On 5/15/2016 at 9:58 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I realize that you guys are heavily invested in what you think happened, but I would appreciate actual critique of the evidence. :)

 

On 5/15/2016 at 10:04 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Someone could do it when there is an actual case. We have absolutely nothing to indicate that anything you have proposed so why we should bother trying to find sense?

 

 

On 5/15/2016 at 10:06 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I agree it would be quite the shocker to learn that Robert was capable of such deceit, but I think he showed flashes of his true self when Ned served as his Hand. 

I freely admit that I am basing most of my ideas about Robert upon the theory that The Soiled Knight and The Queenmaker are inversion chapters, and that it hinges upon a hinge. :lmao: Sorry, that's a little joke...but seriously I do think it has to do with the hinge that we know as the Wall. I would expand on this, but I don't want to derail this discussion. You can read more about it if you go to the link in my signature called Eating the Dragon's Tail.

 

 

On 5/15/2016 at 10:11 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ι don't believe that there is such a thing because it doesn't make sense and nothing in the books point to that direction.

 

On 5/15/2016 at 11:08 AM, Ygrain said:

First I would need to see some evidence for. Yes, Tywin would certainly be capable of something like this, but there is zero hint that he actually did.

As for some details - Lyanna disappeared in the vicinity of Harrenhal, not from Winterfell; Cersei didn't have any afafir with Robert because her memory of the only time she felt aroused by him was on their wedding night; Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips so there was  something towards her on his part; Lyanna is constantly depicted in association with a crown of blue roses which she was gifted by Rhaegar, and which makes no sense if there was no involvement between her and Rhaegar.

Oh, and BTW, unless Robert found a breastplate stretcher, he definitely wouldn't have fit into Rhaegar's armour, Rhaegar wasn't noted for being broadchested and muscular.

I was going to compile a whole list of quotes and then add something but I only got to through the first page of replies before the total lack of evidence/fan fic rewrites/desperate for another book crackpot overwhelmed the multi quote function of the forum. Good job on the Joke. 
Edit: And it is still less plausible than my theory of the Great other being the bastard of Megatron and Optimus Prime 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was going to compile a whole list of quotes and then add something but I only got to through the first page of replies before the total lack of evidence/fan fic rewrites/desperate for another book crackpot overwhelmed the multi quote function of the forum. Good job on the Joke. 
Edit: And it is still less plausible than my theory of the Great other being the bastard of Megatron and Optimus Prime 

 

At least some of the people you've quoted had something constructive to add. You've gone to a lot of work just to tell me you think this is a joke. You've made your point, now move along.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...