The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

[Ygrain]

On 18. 5. 2016 at 5:23 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I was agreeing that Kevan thought Rhaegar "looked" at Lyanna when he gave her the roses, and his thought was if he had married Cersei instead of Elia, then he would have never even looked. IMO this sounds like justification for the part that he played.

Then you're missing my point completely. 

If there was really nothing between Rhaegar and Lyanna, the crowning would be completely insignificant and Kevan wouldn't bother thinking about it.

BTW, why did you say Ned kept thinking about Lyanna in connection with the QoLaB crown?

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The World book is the only one that says Lyanna was in the Riverlands and is supposed to be an in-world" history book written by a maester as a gift to Robert Baratheon, so it's history the way the victors want it.

Actually, the World Book only confirmed what people had been pointing out before - that the logistics of Lyanna's kidnapping from Winterfell is highly unlikely, and that she was either staying in the South (e.g. with the Whents), or on her way to Brandon's wedding. 

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

BTW, why did you say Ned kept thinking about Lyanna in connection with the QoLaB crown?

I don't recall. I wonder if I misspoke and typed Ned instead of somebody else? What did I say exactly?

What I do recall saying is that Rhaegar presented the flowers, but not for the reason people think he did. It appeared as if he was taking a romantic interest, but I think he was acknowledging that he thought she played a part with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Kind of a tipping of the hat.

[Ygrain]

My bad, I meant, "did you explain anywhere why Ned thinks that?"

[Melifeather]

Why Ned thinks what? I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Ygrain]

Ned keeps thinking about Lyanna and blue roses, which turns out to be the HH laurel. We even have Lyanna wearing the crown in Theon's dream. Why is it there if the crown has virtually no significance in your scenario?

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ned keeps thinking about Lyanna and blue roses, which turns out to be the HH laurel. We even have Lyanna wearing the crown in Theon's dream. Why is it there if the crown has virtually no significance in your scenario?

Ahh, in the fever dream? I thought it was actually more symbolic, that the crown of blue roses and the petals blowing in the wind were actually blood. Blue is the color of death, and since Myrcella was struck by Darkstar with his sword, I believe Lyanna was similarly struck, and her wound would look like a crown of blood across her head, and the blow sent blood spraying into the wind.

[Dorian Martell]

On 5/18/2016 at 3:46 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Everything is supported by the books. The marriage alliances are straight from the book. The way Aerys suspiciously viewed them is straight from the book. Kevan holding nobles hostage is straight from the book. Tywin sending out raiding parties without banners is straight from the book. Cersei wanting to be her father's heir and also queen is straight from the book. Tywin as a brilliant strategist, being capable of negotiating contracts with shocking outcomes, and completely destroying his enemies is straight out of the book. What's not in the books?

The other (hinge) theory is an over all arcing theory, which actually doesn't have to be true for the Tywin theory to be true since the hinge wasn't reopened until after the Rebellion. 

There are plenty of actual book parts you put together, but the overarching theory is bunk. Bob did not have an affair with Cersei. It wasn't in the books.  The smiling knight was not magically resurrected  and joined the citadel. It wasn't in the books. "Arthur and Lyanna's flight" can't mirror Arya and the Hound's because there was no prince and another member of the kingsguard. 
Not bad for fan fic, but still mental masturbation with ZERO evidence in the books

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

The smiling knight was not magically resurrected  and joined the citadel.

You got this part mixed up, but no matter. Time will tell if my theories prove true...at least as long as the promised books get published.

[norwaywolf123]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The World book is the only one that says Lyanna was in the Riverlands and is supposed to be an in-world" history book written by a maester as a gift to Robert Baratheon, so it's history the way the victors want it.

I understand those not familiar with the inversion chapters would be hesitant to accept that this very story is implied in The Queenmaker chapter, but it's there. 

There are two main factors at play in Westeros: the wheel of time, and the warded hinge at the Wall. Both of these things affect how destiny is played out. The wheel of time had four major turns:

1) First Men

2) Andals

3) Rhoynar

4) Targaryens

Sometime before Ned and his family found the dead direwolf, the warding of the hinge was unraveled causing it to open and release magic. At the same time it flipped destiny...west is now east and the north is upside down. It has also caused the wheel of time to go in reverse. We are now seeing:

1) Targaryens - Dany is the original Mother of Dragons. The Targaryens somehow got their dragons from Asshai, so she is now the starting point. The Targaryens and Greyjoys have switched places, so now we've got Euron going to go get dragons to invade Westeros like Aeron the Conqueror did. He will likely fail, since we're going backwards it will be the opposite of Aegon.

2) Rhoynar - The Lannisters have switched with the Martells. Now the Martells are doing underhanded deals to get their heirs in positions of power. Arianne is currently on her way to JonCon's Aegon. She too will ultimately fail.

3) Andals - Tommen's rule is being challenged by the Citadel and the Faith of the Seven. They will likely be overtaken by the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant.

4) First Men - Leaf told Bran the wolves would outlive us all since the wheel of time will get to them last. Not sure if Bran will be able to stop the wheel and reclose the hinge in time for the Starks to be the last family standing, but it seems likely that this will be where the story is heading.

This isn't fan fiction. This inversion story has been given to us by the author. It all depends upon whether you recognize it or not.

Intresting observation

But i don't think the First Men heirs will get the south....

Firstmen: North

Andals:Westerlands, Iron isles, Riverlands, Vale, Crownlands, Stormlands, Reach

Rhoyar:DOrne

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Intresting observation

But i don't think the First Men heirs will get the south....

Firstmen: North

Andals:Westerlands, Iron isles, Riverlands, Vale, Crownlands, Stormlands, Reach

Rhoyar:DOrne

They would if everyone else were defeated. If the point of reversing the wheel of time is to get back to the beginning, then the First Men would have it all, unless they too will be defeated and the land returned to the Children and old gods.

[Dorian Martell]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

. Time will tell if my theories prove true...at least as long as the promised books get published.

Faith is all we have 

[Melifeather]

I offer three separate quotes from our author regarding marriage and his thoughts about how he presented them realistically with regard to the time period:

 

“And then there are some things that just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.........” 

 

“And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the middle Ages <snip> they have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that (GRRM).”  

 

“Marriage was a form of political alliance. It was a way to cement a political alliance – one of the ways to bind two families together and hopefully make peace between them or to establish that... they would be allies against a third common enemy. You didn’t want your sons or daughters, if you were a lord, marrying for love. That was, that was insane... If you had a vassal whose loyalty you questioned, maybe you married him to one of your daughters and thereby bind him more closely to the family. If you have a rival you’d been at war with and now you make peace, you marry a daughter to his son...”  

 

That last sentence about making peace by marrying your daughter to his son is exactly what Tywin did. He made an alliance with Robert through a marriage pact with Cersei. I propose that this agreement happened much, much earlier than we have been led to believe. 

Ned knew something dishonorable had taken place and he tried to tell Robert about it, but Robert already knew:

 

    “Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!” Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. “If Jaime hadn’t done it, it would have been left for you or me.”

    “You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. “So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us.” 

    Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. “Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?” 

    “Not our men,” Ned said patiently. “Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery.” 

    The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert’s banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King’s Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate. 

    “Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well,” Robert said. The anger was building in him again. “Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it.” 

    “You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.” 

    “The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!” 

    “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. 

    “That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.” 

    “I cannot answer Grace … only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day,” Ned said. “Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister’s men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion’s head. How he glittered!” 

    “This is well known,” the king complained. 

    “I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king’s blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister’s men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, ‘Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It’s not a very comfortable seat, I’m afraid.’”

    “Well, now I know Jaime’s dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten. I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and matters of state, Ned. It’s all as tedious as counting coppers. Come, let’s ride, you used to know how. I want to feel the wind in my hair again.”

 

You can read the above two ways. You can view this through Ned's eyes and his belief that Robert wasn't aware of the Lannister's treachery and his belief that they wanted the throne for themselves, or you can read between the lines and realize that Robert knew everything all along because he was a willing participant in the treachery. He calls the Lannisters that sacked Kings Landing "our men"...Ned says "not our men", but Robert called them "our men", because the Lannisters were already his ally.

Lyanna was already dead by the time Robert and Ned reached the Trident. That he "avenged" her there indicates that they both knew she was dead, and Robert's words that his vengeance "did not bring her back" also supports this.

[Ygrain]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I offer three separate quotes from our author regarding marriage and his thoughts about how he presented them realistically with regard to the time period:

 

“And then there are some things that just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy.........” 

Rhaegar was not a stable boy, he falls into what I bolded. 

Quote

“And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the middle Ages <snip> they have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that (GRRM).”  

Indeed. So when Lyanna - and Rhaegar - stepped out of the boundaries of their class, it had consequences. Nasty.

Quote

“Marriage was a form of political alliance. It was a way to cement a political alliance – one of the ways to bind two families together and hopefully make peace between them or to establish that... they would be allies against a third common enemy. You didn’t want your sons or daughters, if you were a lord, marrying for love. That was, that was insane... If you had a vassal whose loyalty you questioned, maybe you married him to one of your daughters and thereby bind him more closely to the family. If you have a rival you’d been at war with and now you make peace, you marry a daughter to his son...”  

That last sentence about making peace by marrying your daughter to his son is exactly what Tywin did. He made an alliance with Robert through a marriage pact with Cersei.

Right and wrong both. They did make an alliance but prior, they were not enemies because Tywin had maintained his neutrality.

Quote

I propose that this agreement happened much, much earlier than we have been led to believe. 

Nope.

Quote

Ned knew something dishonorable had taken place and he tried to tell Robert about it, but Robert already knew:

    “Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!” Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. “If Jaime hadn’t done it, it would have been left for you or me.”

    “You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. “So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us.” 

    Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. “Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?” 

    “Not our men,” Ned said patiently. “Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery.” 

    The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert’s banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King’s Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate. 

    “Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well,” Robert said. The anger was building in him again. “Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it.” 

    “You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.” 

    “The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!” 

    “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. 

    “That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown … it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe … and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.” 

    “I cannot answer Grace … only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day,” Ned said. “Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister’s men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion’s head. How he glittered!” 

    “This is well known,” the king complained. 

    “I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king’s blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister’s men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, ‘Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It’s not a very comfortable seat, I’m afraid.’”

    “Well, now I know Jaime’s dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten. I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and matters of state, Ned. It’s all as tedious as counting coppers. Come, let’s ride, you used to know how. I want to feel the wind in my hair again.”

 

You can read the above two ways. You can view this through Ned's eyes and his belief that Robert wasn't aware of the Lannister's treachery and his belief that they wanted the throne for themselves, or you can read between the lines and realize that Robert knew everything all along because he was a willing participant in the treachery. He calls the Lannisters that sacked Kings Landing "our men"...Ned says "not our men", but Robert called them "our men", because the Lannisters were already his ally.

You're reading something that is not there. Of course that Robert says "our men" - this is fourteen years later, he is married to a Lannister, and by doing what they did at the Sack they chose his side even before the proclamation was made officially.

As for avenging, Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped and raped Lyanna, so that part was indeed avenged by his death even when Lyanna was still alive.

Note the red bolded part, though - it is interesting that, unlike when talking about Lyanna's wish to be buried at Winterfell, Ned does not elaborate here, nor does he share with Robert the content of the promise, and given the context, it is clearly a different promise than the one about her burial site. It is somehow related to the talk of honour and vengeance, but as if supplementing, or even contradicting, what is being said, in a way that cannot be confided to Robert. 

In fact, there is a similarly ambiguous sequence earlier:

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”
There was nothing Ned could say to that. After a quiet, he said, “We should return, Your Grace. Your wife will be waiting.”

Now, is it that Ned cannot say anything because he fully agrees, or is it that he disagrees, which is something he cannot tell Robert?

Quote

Lyanna was already dead by the time Robert and Ned reached the Trident. That he "avenged" her there indicates that they both knew she was dead, and Robert's words that his vengeance "did not bring her back" also supports this.

This is nonsense.

He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.
 

The bolded clearly establishes that Lyanna died after the Trident and Sack, and this information is further consistent with Ned making an almost solo ride to recover his sister and being present at her deathbed, with Howland Reed around. There is no way this could have happened during the Rebellion when Ned was with his army in a completely different part of realm.

 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Note the red bolded part, though - it is interesting that, unlike when talking about Lyanna's wish to be buried at Winterfell, Ned does not elaborate here, nor does he share with Robert the content of the promise, and given the context, it is clearly a different promise than the one about her burial site. It is somehow related to the talk of honour and vengeance, but as if supplementing, or even contradicting, what is being said, in a way that cannot be confided to Robert. 

 

The "promise me" is up to interpretation, because Ned never elaborates what that promise was other than to tell people that it included bringing her home and putting her in the crypts with their father and Brandon.

In one of Ned's dreams about Lyanna after she says, "Promise me, Ned," She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. The color blue symbolizes death, and the garland of death is blood that dripped down her face making it look like she was weeping blood from her eyes. The symptoms of puerperal are fever, flu-like symptoms, abdominal pain, a foul-smelling discharge, and abnormal vaginal bleeding, but never bloody tears.

 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”
There was nothing Ned could say to that. After a quiet, he said, “We should return, Your Grace. Your wife will be waiting.”

Now, is it that Ned cannot say anything because he fully agrees, or is it that he disagrees, which is something he cannot tell Robert?

 

Another sentence that is open to interpretation. Ned was trying to tell Robert some truths about the Lannisters, so if Lyanna's death was actually one due to an infected sword wound rather than complications from childbirth, then her death wasn't Rhaegar's fault...even if Ned still believed Rhaegar kidnapped her, therefore it's a complicated series of events that Ned is contemplating and I can see why he wouldn't answer.

 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.
 

The bolded clearly establishes that Lyanna died after the Trident and Sack, and this information is further consistent with Ned making an almost solo ride to recover his sister and being present at her deathbed, with Howland Reed around. There is no way this could have happened during the Rebellion when Ned was with his army in a completely different part of realm.

 

This too can be viewed two ways. The deaths they had the argument over were those of Rhaenys and Aegon, but that doesn't automatically place Lyanna's death afterward. It just says they reconciled over shared grief...that is open to interpretation. "It had taken another death" just means a death other than those of Rhaenys and Aegon.

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

This too can be viewed two ways. The deaths they had the argument over were those of Rhaenys and Aegon, but that doesn't automatically place Lyanna's death afterward. It just says they reconciled over shared grief...that is open to interpretation. "It had taken another death" just means a death other than those of Rhaenys and Aegon.

Nonsense. "Another" means "next", "one more", "additional", i.e. one added to the previous number and that is always chronological. Even in its meaning "different" it is still chronological here, due to the actions described - if two people have a break up and and it only takes some event for them to reconcile, that event happens afterwards. You're really trying too hard to shoehorn the text into your interpretation.

[Voice]

On 5/15/2016 at 7:38 AM, Feather Crystal said:

Here is how the plan was carried out. Robert goes to Winterfell to collect Lyanna after Rickard and Brandon left for Riverrun for the marriage to Catelyn Tully. He doesn’t raise any suspicions as he’s a known friend of the Starks, and he’s got Maester Walys’s help on the inside. Lyanna was sick with red spots at the time, so she was isolated from the rest of the household and under Walys’s care. (This mirrors how Arianne and Arys got Myrcella out of Sunspear.) She would have been weak from her illness and unaware that it was Robert under Rhaegar’s armor. They ride towards Aerys’s detachment. Maester Walys has Lyanna sedated so she really isn’t in any state to resist nor realize what is happening. The detachment was camped out for the night when Robert dressed as Rhaegar shows up with Maester Walys and Lyanna in tow. Ever the gallant knight, Ser Arthur rescues Lyanna, but he dare not kill his friend and prince, but where does he go? Where should he take her?

 

As I was skimming the thread and reading the comments I thought some of them were pretty rude. The "fan fic" accusation is always offensive.

But wow.

Once I got to this part of the OP I couldn't help but laugh. And I didn't want to. It felt mean. But know that the smiles were appreciated, even if the logic is not.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Voice said:

 

As I was skimming the thread and reading the comments I thought some of them were pretty rude. The "fan fic" accusation is always offensive.

But wow.

Once I got to this part of the OP I couldn't help but laugh. And I didn't want to. It felt mean. But know that the smiles were appreciated, even if the logic is not.

I just appreciate that you took the time to read it. 

[Juliet Burke]

On 16.05.2016 at 6:06 PM, JNR said:

Well, first, Parris has said this sort of thing on multiple occasions, going back at least a dozen years.  If she was "having a bit of fun at someone's expense," it happened quite a few times.

Second, at the time she started saying this -- 2003 at the latest -- R+L=J was only a theory, not a cult.  So she wouldn't necessarily have perceived it as giving away "GRRM's greatest twist" because the fandom wasn't nearly as obsessive and foolish as it is today.

Third, there's no way to establish that it is GRRM's greatest twist even now.  The fandom has arbitrarily chosen to invest a tremendous amount of time and energy in discussing Jon's parentage, but GRRM has a far larger story to tell.  The premise that Jon is (due to R+L=J) the song of ice and fire, and therefore the whole series is about him, and therefore his parentage (if not Rhaegar and Lyanna) must be the greatest twist in the series, and therefore Parris wouldn't have "given it away," is a classic instance of circular reasoning. 

Fourth, it can't even be demonstrated that Parris knows who Jon's parents are.  She's certainly never said any such thing, in any account I've read.  So we can't conclude she would have known she was giving anything away... even if she was.

Did Parris say it in the last few years?

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Juliet Burke said:

Did Parris say it in the last few years?

I'd have to be Parris to answer that.  

It would be a great question for a fan to ask her at a convention, though: "Years ago, you said George had never told you outright who Jon's parents were in the books.  Has that changed?"  

If she -- his wife -- says no...

[Juliet Burke]

41 minutes ago, JNR said:

I'd have to be Parris to answer that.  

It would be a great question for a fan to ask her at a convention, though: "Years ago, you said George had never told you outright who Jon's parents were in the books.  Has that changed?"  

If she -- his wife -- says no...

No, I was saying about her opinion that R+L=J is too obvious. Did she repeat that RLS is too obvious in few last years?