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Feather Crystal

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

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The Tullys pretty clearly were not involved in any rebellion plan, and in fact, had to be brought into the rebellion with two marriages after a number of battles had already taken place. The Lannisters were even later in joining the rebellion. The rebellion was not planned, it came to fruition with Jon choosing to raise his banners rather than sending the heads of Robert and Ned to Aerys. 

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4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Robert being 6'5" would certainly fit Jaime's description of the Smiling Knight, "the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad." Certainly very tall, but Rhaegar was said to be tall also. But it was Rhaegar's armor they saw, so that is who people believed they saw.

Tywin was part of the Rebellion plans as evidenced by his marriage agreement with Hoster Tully to marry Jaime to Lyssa. He never waited to commit. He was a part of it from the get-go. You can gather a lot of intel by continuing to stay in Kings Landing, or making the appearance that you're not a part of the fray. I assert that not only was Tywin in on Jaime's investiture, it was likely his idea as a way for him to "storm" back to Casterly Rock. Quite frankly it's a believable excuse to give up his position as Hand, but also look like he's stewing at home. 

If the tourney at Harrenhal was cover for Rhaegar to meet with the Lords to plot the Rebellion, then Rhaegar believed Tywin was an ally. He continued to believe he was an ally when he told his father Aerys to send a raven to Casterly Rock when the Rebellion forces drew near. That is why Tywin couldn't show his hand just yet, because he needed the element of surprise when he arrived to sack the city. They would have never opened the gates had they known that he was still engaged with the rebel forces.

Robert was privy to Tywin's plans all along and why he dismissed Ned when Ned was trying to tell Robert "the truth" about when Jaime was on the throne and how there was no honor in the conquest. Robert laughed it off, because he already knew.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read it. I guess I have that at least! Please feel free to "poke" away. Isn't that the point of starting a thread? To generate a discussion?

Yes but Robert isn't crazy. And yes Rhaegar was tall but they were likely completely different builds, Robert favored a war hammer and Rhaegar a harp. Tywin can surely find someone closer in appearance to Rhaegar, I don't see why Robert would do it given his size and his character. 

There was no rebellion at that point, just alliances. Hoster is his neighbor so it's not strange he'd be willing to marry his heir to Lysa to form a strong bond with a powerful neighbor, there doesn't have to be any conspiracy behind it. 

The rebellion was hardly guaranteed to succeed,  there is no way that if Tywin were involved they would of had him wait until the end so he could sack the city through treachery. You make it sound like they were certain of victory from the beginning and knew exactly how things would play out, otherwise it makes no sense to make probably the most powerful man in your alliance do nothing. A far more simple and reasonable suggestion would be he is uncommitted to either side and decides to chose one when the victor is obvious. 

The notion that Tywin would even confide any important plans in a known drunken fool like Robert is ridiculous in itself. Besides that, Robert was the one who truly despised Targaryens and he overlooked what Tywin did because of that very hate.

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Hmmm, this essay changed a lot since I last saw it (over on certain other boards). I still thik that Tywin's possible role in the events has to be examined, but I believe you're taking this inversion thing way too far. Now that you explained what should have happened according to the inversion theory, can you cite evidence from the books that it did in fact happen? Qutes that should make us think that Robert was indeed duplicitous WRT the Lyanna business? That Cersei ever had any interaction with Robert before their wedding night (when he called her Lyanna - how do you explain that?). That Tywin was anything else than pissed off about Jaime's investiture?

Edited by nanother

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Robert would still need to fit into Rhaegar's armor, and if he had a much larger frame (as is apparent) I doubt he would fit. 

Tywin forfeiting his heir just to leave KL is ludicrous, if he wanted to leave he needed only to ask.

We know from Cersei's own mind that she hated Robbert and loves Rhaegar, so I doubt she would go along with any of this.

There would be no reason for Tywin joining the rebellion sooner.

Dayne was Rhaegars best friend I doubt he wouldn't nitice if it were Robbert in armor and not his bff, and he also could speak with him, and find something strange when he remains a mute or answers with the wrong voice.

Robert would have to reach the eire before Aerys letters asking for his and neds heads reached the eire.

I don't see why Bob would keep the rouse he loved Lyanna for so much time, including when alone with Cersei.

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Well I think it is interesting.  Since no one other then GRRM himself really knows what happened, all theories are possible.  I don't believe that Robert would have been involved though.  I like the thoughts on Tywin though.  This does sound like something he would plan.

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7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

First I would need to see some evidence for. Yes, Tywin would certainly be capable of something like this, but there is zero hint that he actually did.

As for some details - Lyanna disappeared in the vicinity of Harrenhal, not from Winterfell; Cersei didn't have any afafir with Robert because her memory of the only time she felt aroused by him was on their wedding night; Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips so there was  something towards her on his part; Lyanna is constantly depicted in association with a crown of blue roses which she was gifted by Rhaegar, and which makes no sense if there was no involvement between her and Rhaegar.

Oh, and BTW, unless Robert found a breastplate stretcher, he definitely wouldn't have fit into Rhaegar's armour, Rhaegar wasn't noted for being broadchested and muscular.

 

I freely admit that I got the idea of Robert's deceit from the Soiled Knight and Queenmaker chapters, but it makes sense. It's shocking, to be sure, and certainly more interesting than a dashing prince fairy tale kidnapping.

Maester Walys got Lyanna out of Winterfell while her family was gone. She was isolated from anyone that was left in the castle with her sickness. She either was actually sick with red spots, or Maester Walys faked her illness and told everyone she had red spots in order to keep everyone away so that he would have an opportunity to get her out of the castle unseen. 

Robert wasn't a fat man in his youth. Ned said he was a maiden's dream, which ironically is how people think of Rhaegar. 

 

5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Tullys pretty clearly were not involved in any rebellion plan, and in fact, had to be brought into the rebellion with two marriages after a number of battles had already taken place. The Lannisters were even later in joining the rebellion. The rebellion was not planned, it came to fruition with Jon choosing to raise his banners rather than sending the heads of Robert and Ned to Aerys. 

 

To me this detail implicates Jon Arryn a little bit, as he would have to be the one to carry out the details while Tywin seemingly was out. He would also have to know the plan all along included Lyanna's death to cement the allies as a unified force. They couldn't have foreseen Rickard and Brandon's deaths, however, but Brandon was rash in running off to Kings Landing. Either way it all played into their plans, because it rallied the north to their cause.

 

3 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Yes but Robert isn't crazy. And yes Rhaegar was tall but they were likely completely different builds, Robert favored a war hammer and Rhaegar a harp. Tywin can surely find someone closer in appearance to Rhaegar, I don't see why Robert would do it given his size and his character. 

There was no rebellion at that point, just alliances. Hoster is his neighbor so it's not strange he'd be willing to marry his heir to Lysa to form a strong bond with a powerful neighbor, there doesn't have to be any conspiracy behind it. 

The rebellion was hardly guaranteed to succeed,  there is no way that if Tywin were involved they would of had him wait until the end so he could sack the city through treachery. You make it sound like they were certain of victory from the beginning and knew exactly how things would play out, otherwise it makes no sense to make probably the most powerful man in your alliance do nothing. A far more simple and reasonable suggestion would be he is uncommitted to either side and decides to chose one when the victor is obvious. 

The notion that Tywin would even confide any important plans in a known drunken fool like Robert is ridiculous in itself. Besides that, Robert was the one who truly despised Targaryens and he overlooked what Tywin did because of that very hate.

 

Robert was very charismatic, but if you are familiar with the clinical definition of a charismatic person you would know that this personally type is also very egotistical. They are able to manipulate people with their personality. He's everyone's best friend, and like a good friend you want to do what you can for them. 

Just because Rhaegar liked harps doesn't mean that his physical build was also somehow effeminate. And we have to try to imagine a younger version of Robert built like a "maiden's dream". 

It was uncommon to marry outside your "territory" for lack of a better word. The Lords typical married their daughters to their banner men to strengthen their own power. By marrying into another House it posed a threat...at least in Aerys eyes. What was he supposed to think when he saw a Lannister marrying a Tully, a Tully marry a Stark, and a Stark marry a Baratheon. Plus the Arryns taking wards? It's an alliance of major Houses.

Tywin wins wars with military strength, cunning, and the use of his pen to write and negotiate contracts.

Robert wasn't always a drunken fool. That may have been a result of a guilty conscience.

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14 minutes ago, nanother said:

Hmmm, this essay changed a lot since I last saw it (over on certain other boards). I still thik that Tywin's possible role in the events has to be examined, but I believe you're taking this inversion thing way too far. Now that you explained what should have happened according to the inversion theory, can you cite evidence from the books that it did in fact happen? Qutes that should make us think that Robert was indeed duplicitous WRT the Lyanna business? That Cersei ever had any interaction with Robert before their wedding night (when he called her Lyanna - how do you explain that?). That Tywin was anything else than pissed off about Jaime's investiture?

 

It has changed, because of my work on the inversion chapters. You're right in that it would be difficult to cite passages that spell out exactly that Robert was implicit and that Cersei seduced Robert before their wedding. However, I can provide symbolic evidence from the inversion chapters.

I could find passages where guilt is implied, like the discussion between Ned and Robert. There was something about Cersei aborting Robert's child, but I cannot remember off the top of my head if that is canon or from the show. I'd have to go look.

 

9 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

Robert would still need to fit into Rhaegar's armor, and if he had a much larger frame (as is apparent) I doubt he would fit. 

Tywin forfeiting his heir just to leave KL is ludicrous, if he wanted to leave he needed only to ask.

We know from Cersei's own mind that she hated Robbert and loves Rhaegar, so I doubt she would go along with any of this.

There would be no reason for Tywin joining the rebellion sooner.

Dayne was Rhaegars best friend I doubt he wouldn't nitice if it were Robbert in armor and not his bff, and he also could speak with him, and find something strange when he remains a mute or answers with the wrong voice.

Robert would have to reach the eire before Aerys letters asking for his and neds heads reached the eire.

I don't see why Bob would keep the rouse he loved Lyanna for so much time, including when alone with Cersei.

 

Armor isn't one single suit. It's sectioned into pieces with a breastplate, gorgets, etc. 

Tywin wasn't concerned about Jaime being a Kingsguard and not inheriting. He continued to assert Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock, even in his conversation with Tyrion when Tyrion asked why he couldn't have it. Tywin obviously planned for a way out Jaime.

Cersei didn't love Robert, but she wanted to be queen. Sure she would have loved being Rhaegar's queen, but that marriage proposal was rejected.

I am asserting that the Rebellion was Tywin and Jon Arryn's plan all along. Hoster and Rickard would have known some, but not all. 

Dayne had the sword Dawn, so he could have killed them all, so that is why I think he thought it was Rhaegar also. He wouldn't kill his friend and prince, but he also may not have agreed with him taking Lyanna. Not talking would have been confusing, yes, but the others could have brought Dayne up to speed with the whole kidnapping thing, and Dayne was supposedly the epitome of a knight and knights protect the weak. He was just doing the honorable thing by removing her from the situation, and in his mind he likely felt that kidnapping Lyanna would've ignited a Rebellion against his king, so he's also protecting his king by helping her get away.

 

3 minutes ago, Starkbringer said:

Well I think it is interesting.  Since no one other then GRRM himself really knows what happened, all theories are possible.  I don't believe that Robert would have been involved though.  I like the thoughts on Tywin though.  This does sound like something he would plan.

Thank you for your kind words! You've got to admit that if Robert was involved, it would be quite a shock.

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29 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I freely admit that I got the idea of Robert's deceit from the Soiled Knight and Queenmaker chapters, but it makes sense. It's shocking, to be sure, and certainly more interesting than a dashing prince fairy tale kidnapping.

...except that the kidnapping version is repeatedly presented in multiple PoVs. 

Also, I don't recall a fairy tale which ended with the prince hammer-timed and his lady dying in the tower from puerperal fever.

29 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maester Walys got Lyanna out of Winterfell while her family was gone. She was isolated from anyone that was left in the castle with her sickness. She either was actually sick with red spots, or Maester Walys faked her illness and told everyone she had red spots in order to keep everyone away so that he would have an opportunity to get her out of the castle unseen. 

Ah. So, no-one ever sees Lyanna for weeks, and then they receive news that she was kidnapped 10 miles from HH, and no-one ever goes WUT?! nor they ever make a comment on that? 

Plus, what happened with "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell? Is a seriously ill girl fit to play that role? And how do you propose that the maester transported her those hundreds of miles? And BTW, during that supposed seclusion, the maester personally took care of her bodily needs? Emptied her chamber pot, changed her mestrual rags? Really?

29 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Robert wasn't a fat man in his youth. Ned said he was a maiden's dream, which ironically is how people think of Rhaegar. 

I didn't say he was fat. He "needed a stretcher" for his own armour because he got too fat to fit into it. He wouldn't have fit into Rhaegar's armour because Rhaegar was not that broad-chested guy swinging a huge warhammer. This doesn't mean that Rhaegar wasn't strong or athletic, only that Robert had really powerful physique.

Also, Robert going for such a plan where he would be disguised as someone else seems rather out of character for his simple, straightforward smash-them-all attitude.

 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Robert being 6'5" would certainly fit Jaime's description of the Smiling Knight, "the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad." Certainly very tall, but Rhaegar was said to be tall also. But it was Rhaegar's armor they saw, so that is who people believed they saw.

Tywin was part of the Rebellion plans as evidenced by his marriage agreement with Hoster Tully to marry Jaime to Lyssa. He never waited to commit. He was a part of it from the get-go. You can gather a lot of intel by continuing to stay in Kings Landing, or making the appearance that you're not a part of the fray. I assert that not only was Tywin in on Jaime's investiture, it was likely his idea as a way for him to "storm" back to Casterly Rock. Quite frankly it's a believable excuse to give up his position as Hand, but also look like he's stewing at home. 

If the tourney at Harrenhal was cover for Rhaegar to meet with the Lords to plot the Rebellion, then Rhaegar believed Tywin was an ally. He continued to believe he was an ally when he told his father Aerys to send a raven to Casterly Rock when the Rebellion forces drew near. That is why Tywin couldn't show his hand just yet, because he needed the element of surprise when he arrived to sack the city. They would have never opened the gates had they known that he was still engaged with the rebel forces.

Robert was privy to Tywin's plans all along and why he dismissed Ned when Ned was trying to tell Robert "the truth" about when Jaime was on the throne and how there was no honor in the conquest. Robert laughed it off, because he already knew.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read it. I guess I have that at least! Please feel free to "poke" away. Isn't that the point of starting a thread? To generate a discussion?

Sorry if you're offended, I didn't mean to upset you. I was only, as you said was the point, discussing your theory - pointing out both its good and bad points. If you're going to produce such a far reaching theory based on so little evidence, you should expect some criticism. When that happens, please don't insult everyone who looks at your work objectively, especially when they went out of your way to compliment you.

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

...except that the kidnapping version is repeatedly presented in multiple PoVs. 

Also, I don't recall a fairy tale which ended with the prince hammer-timed and his lady dying in the tower from puerperal fever.

Ah. So, no-one ever sees Lyanna for weeks, and then they receive news that she was kidnapped 10 miles from HH, and no-one ever goes WUT?! nor they ever make a comment on that? 

Plus, what happened with "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell? Is a seriously ill girl fit to play that role? And how do you propose that the maester transported her those hundreds of miles? And BTW, during that supposed seclusion, the maester personally took care of her bodily needs? Emptied her chamber pot, changed her mestrual rags? Really?

I didn't say he was fat. He "needed a stretcher" for his own armour because he got too fat to fit into it. He wouldn't have fit into Rhaegar's armour because Rhaegar was not that broad-chested guy swinging a huge warhammer. This doesn't mean that Rhaegar wasn't strong or athletic, only that Robert had really powerful physique.

Also, Robert going for such a plan where he would be disguised as someone else seems rather out of character for his simple, straightforward smash-them-all attitude.

 

Who exactly is recalling the kidnapping? It always seems to be hearsay.

I agree fairy tales don't kill off the prince and lady, that much is true, but there is no evidence that Lyanna died of puerperal fever nor that she even had a child. 

If the Maester Walys told everyone Lyanna had red spots, she would be isolated so that no one else would catch it. There would be enough of a delay that no one else would notice she was gone. Who says Lyanna had her period? In the Soiled Knight Arys didn't tell Myrcella where they were going, but she still went with him none the less. I guess she just trusted him. Maester Walys was likely a trusted member of the household, and just like Myrcella, Lyanna could have just gone with him.

Robert wanted to be king, he only came to rue his responsibilities because he only wanted to enjoy the fun parts of having the privileges. But I think Ned saw flashes of his true personality and it shocked him, because he only ever knew the charismatic side.

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1 minute ago, forod said:

Sorry if you're offended, I didn't mean to upset you. I was only, as you said was the point, discussing your theory - pointing out both its good and bad points. If you're going to produce such a far reaching theory based on so little evidence, you should expect some criticism. When that happens, please don't insult everyone who looks at your work objectively, especially when they went out of your way to compliment you.

I am confused. I wasn't offended. Where are you getting this idea? I think there must be some confusion somewhere.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Robert being 6'5" would certainly fit Jaime's description of the Smiling Knight, "the Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big, twice as mad." Certainly very tall, but Rhaegar was said to be tall also. But it was Rhaegar's armor they saw, so that is who people believed they saw.

Tywin was part of the Rebellion plans as evidenced by his marriage agreement with Hoster Tully to marry Jaime to Lyssa. He never waited to commit. He was a part of it from the get-go. You can gather a lot of intel by continuing to stay in Kings Landing, or making the appearance that you're not a part of the fray. I assert that not only was Tywin in on Jaime's investiture, it was likely his idea as a way for him to "storm" back to Casterly Rock. Quite frankly it's a believable excuse to give up his position as Hand, but also look like he's stewing at home. 

If the tourney at Harrenhal was cover for Rhaegar to meet with the Lords to plot the Rebellion, then Rhaegar believed Tywin was an ally. He continued to believe he was an ally when he told his father Aerys to send a raven to Casterly Rock when the Rebellion forces drew near. That is why Tywin couldn't show his hand just yet, because he needed the element of surprise when he arrived to sack the city. They would have never opened the gates had they known that he was still engaged with the rebel forces.

Robert was privy to Tywin's plans all along and why he dismissed Ned when Ned was trying to tell Robert "the truth" about when Jaime was on the throne and how there was no honor in the conquest. Robert laughed it off, because he already knew.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read it. I guess I have that at least! Please feel free to "poke" away. Isn't that the point of starting a thread? To generate a discussion?

This came across to me as sarcastic, apologies if I misinterpreted. :)

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5 minutes ago, forod said:

This came across to me as sarcastic, apologies if I misinterpreted. :)

I am so sorry that you thought I was being sarcastic! That was not my intention at all! I was thanking you for reading my essay, even if you don't agree with it.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Who exactly is recalling the kidnapping? It always seems to be hearsay.

Yeah but on the Targaryen side. Why would Rhaegar keep the blame for something he didn't do? Why wouldn't Rhaella inform Viserys that his awesome brother was framed for something  he hadn't done? Why would Barristan think Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna when as a KG he was privy to a lot that the royal family told each other?

BTW, where was Rhaegar and why did it take Hightower to make him return to KL? 

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree fairy tales don't kill off the prince and lady, that much is true, but there is no evidence that Lyanna died of puerperal fever nor that she even had a child. 

This is blatantly untrue. "Bed of blood" doesn't indicate chilbirth only if yoyu refuse to acknowledge that this is the way GRRM uses it. Fever is a sign of infection, childbirth + infection = puerperal fever.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Maester Walys told everyone Lyanna had red spots, she would be isolated so that no one else would catch it.

And the maester would be isolated with her, so that he could take care of her, right? Or would the maester be supposed to take precautions not to catch it and some female servant would be assigned to take care of Lyanna's intimate needs.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

There would be enough of a delay that no one else would notice she was gone.

You mean, no-one would notice lack of chamberpots? Or that Benjen wouldn't try to contact her through the door or under her window? Highly unlikely

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Who says Lyanna had her period?

You proposed transporting a sedated girl for several hundred miles, that's weeks of travel. Of course she would have had her period.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

In the Soiled Knight Arys didn't tell Myrcella where they were going, but she still went with him none the less. I guess she just trusted him. Maester Walys was likely a trusted member of the household, and just like Myrcella, Lyanna could have just gone with him.

Myrcella went for a ride. You have Lyanna following Walys for weeks. Nope.

Besides, do you have any quote that Lyanna trusted Walys?

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Robert wanted to be king, he only came to rue his responsibilities because he only wanted to enjoy the fun parts of having the privileges. But I think Ned saw flashes of his true personality and it shocked him, because he only ever knew the charismatic side.

On that we can agree.

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20 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but on the Targaryen side. Why would Rhaegar keep the blame for something he didn't do? Why wouldn't Rhaella inform Viserys that his awesome brother was framed for something  he hadn't done? Why would Barristan think Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna when as a KG he was privy to a lot that the royal family told each other?

BTW, where was Rhaegar and why did it take Hightower to make him return to KL? 

 

This is blatantly untrue. "Bed of blood" doesn't indicate chilbirth only if yoyu refuse to acknowledge that this is the way GRRM uses it. Fever is a sign of infection, childbirth + infection = puerperal fever.

 

And the maester would be isolated with her, so that he could take care of her, right? Or would the maester be supposed to take precautions not to catch it and some female servant would be assigned to take care of Lyanna's intimate needs.

You mean, no-one would notice lack of chamberpots? Or that Benjen wouldn't try to contact her through the door or under her window? Highly unlikely

You proposed transporting a sedated girl for several hundred miles, that's weeks of travel. Of course she would have had her period.

Myrcella went for a ride. You have Lyanna following Walys for weeks. Nope.

Besides, do you have any quote that Lyanna trusted Walys?

On that we can agree.

I didn't include my suspicions that Rhaella, or Elia for that matter, played a part in the early planning stages, but I think they were...at least on Rhaegar's side, because I believe he was gathering support to overthrow his father. Rhaegar had allies, like his wife and mother, so I think they were aware that a Rebellion was taking shape, only they thought it was for their benefit.

The book says Rhaegar was in the south, and I believe the kidnapping took place while he was gone. All people saw was his armor, so they believed he was there. As for Hightower...who's report was it that he was sent? Jaime's? Jaime was in on the plot. The Queenmaker inversion chapter implies that Hightower was injured...maybe even killed with his death hidden by saying he was sent down south to fetch Rhaegar. Before you even bring it up, I will...the tower of joy. The details of which are only provided in Ned's fever dream. I think the men that Ned encountered were only ordinary men who were trying to keep him away from seeing what was happening in that tower. Ned inserts Kingsguard because he was wondering where they went since he hadn't seen them in any of the battles. I think what was happening in that tower was much more like what was done to Drogo. I think Rhaegar's body was recovered from the Trident and transported via ship south to the Weeping Town and brought to the tower of joy and "they" tried resurrecting him via blood magic. An inversion to Drogo's tent. Props to SomePig for laying out the details. If you'd like to read more you can find it HERE.

As for Lyanna and her period...do we know that she had flowered? Isn't that what they wait for to complete a marriage? She was pledged to Robert, but the marriage hadn't taken place yet. Could be she hadn't flowered yet.

Walys could have drugged Lyanna to keep her passive and unable to resist. There's not much about Walys. Not even a reason why he's gone missing.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Robert Baratheon was the biggest promoter that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. Honorable Ned didn’t seem like a man that would dishonor his new bride Catelyn with an affair that produced Jon, so the reader is easily led to believe that Lyanna is Jon’s mother, therefore Rhaegar must be his father. Ta-da! Case closed. (insert scratched record noise here, followed by the “tap-tap-tap” of a conductor’s baton)

Small point here.  The reader is not easily led to this conclusion.  The vast majority of readers (even close ones who have done multiple rereads) are unaware of the idea of Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon's parents.  You ask 100 book readers who Jon's mother is, and 90 of them will answer either "I don't know", "Wylla", or "Ashara Dayne".  (Actually, it may be even higher than that)  I myself only realized it after looking it up.  He has carefully laid out clues that lead to that conclusion if you can figure them out, but they are not easily spotted.  

Theories like this one tend to fail because of a lack of evidence and a contradiction of generally accepted facts.   And I happen to believe that the basic facts are accurate.  Among them is the fact that Lyanna went with Rhaegar after being accosted by him outside of HH.  Why and how are uncertain.  It also contradicts what we know about just about everybody, and involves a level of conspiracy I find quite ridiculous.

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4 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Loved it

 

:cheers:

1 minute ago, Nevets said:

Small point here.  The reader is not easily led to this conclusion.  The vast majority of readers (even close ones who have done multiple rereads) are unaware of the idea of Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon's parents.  You ask 100 book readers who Jon's mother is, and 90 of them will answer either "I don't know", "Wylla", or "Ashara Dayne".  (Actually, it may be even higher than that)  I myself only realized it after looking it up.  He has carefully laid out clues that lead to that conclusion if you can figure them out, but they are not easily spotted.  

Theories like this one tend to fail because of a lack of evidence and a contradiction of generally accepted facts.   And I happen to believe that the basic facts are accurate.  Among them is the fact that Lyanna went with Rhaegar after being accosted by him outside of HH.  Why and how are uncertain.  It also contradicts what we know about just about everybody, and involves a level of conspiracy I find quite ridiculous.

 

How can you not be led to believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's when everybody keeps saying he kidnapped her? Then we have Ned's unwillingness to talk about Jon's mother until Jon leaves for the Wall, then he says he promises to talk about her the next time he sees him. IMO this is really obvious.

The World Book is meant an a history book written by master's as a gift for King Robert. Of course Robert would want the official record to explain how Lyanna was accosted by Rhaegar! Plus, everyone thought he did it, because they saw his armor.

 

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RLJ only appears obvious after it has been around for twenty years, and after you know it. And no matter how obvious some may think it seems, I am not aware of any suggestion in the books that RLJ. Ashara and Wylla are suggested, but RLJ never is, so it is not obvious to the characters in the book, and most honest readers would have to admit it wasn't obvious to them.

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As for Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name on his lips...maybe it was more of a confused tone, like "Lyanna???" Especially if Robert yelled out something like "this is for Lyanna", and Rhaegar was like, what the??? "Lyanna?" Like, what's she got to do with this?

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