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Feather Crystal

The Heresy Project: Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl

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2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

RLJ only appears obvious after it has been around for twenty years, and after you know it. And no matter how obvious some may think it seems, I am not aware of any suggestion in the books that RLJ. Ashara and Wylla are suggested, but RLJ never is, so it is not obvious to the characters in the book, and most honest readers would have to admit it wasn't obvious to them.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, because that was actually my first thought on my very first read through, and I am being completely honest.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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6 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

RLJ only appears obvious after it has been around for twenty years, and after you know it. And no matter how obvious some may think it seems, I am not aware of any suggestion in the books that RLJ. Ashara and Wylla are suggested, but RLJ never is, so it is not obvious to the characters in the book, and most honest readers would have to admit it wasn't obvious to them.

As for individual comprehension...is that really an argument or evidence? Just because a majority of readers comprehend something one way, does that necessarily prove anything?

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14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

:cheers:

 

How can you not be led to believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's when everybody keeps saying he kidnapped her? Then we have Ned's unwillingness to talk about Jon's mother until Jon leaves for the Wall, then he says he promises to talk about her the next time he sees him. IMO this is really obvious.

The World Book is meant an a history book written by master's as a gift for King Robert. Of course Robert would want the official record to explain how Lyanna was accosted by Rhaegar! Plus, everyone thought he did it, because they saw his armor.

 

It may be obvious to you.  It certainly wasn't obvious to me, or to others I have spoken to about it.  GRRM has spread out the details, so it is hard to make the connections unless you look for them, or have reason to put them together.  For example, if you do a chronology of the back story, it becomes obvious.  But you really have to look or pay very close attention.  And most readers, especially the first time through, aren't that careful.

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You are claiming it is obvious, but that is your own personal experience. The fact is, the books do not actually ever suggest it (as it does red herrings like the Lannisters poisoning Jon Arryn), while suggesting a few possible mothers for Jon (Ashara Dayne, Wylla, a fisherman's daughter). It is not set up as a red herring, but as the answer to the mystery, however obvious or not obvious each reader finds it.

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30 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Then we have Ned's unwillingness to talk about Jon's mother until Jon leaves for the Wall, then he says he promises to talk about her the next time he sees him. IMO this is really obvious.

Wasn't this something that was only in the show?

 

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, because that was actually my first thought on my very first read through, and I am being completely honest.

Some people figuring out RLJ does not make it obvious, let alone too obvious.

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

George's wife Parris thought it was obvious.

I'd take a look at the circumstances of that story before taking her words at face value. Think about it for a moment. Let's say RLJ isn't true. GRRM has successfully fooled over 90% of his most dedicated fans up to this point. The eventual R+L=/=J revelation is perfectly set up to be a legendary twist, precisely because almost everyone believes RLJ. And Parris tells people that RLJ isn't true. Really?

What's more likely, that she was undermining GRRM's greatest twist, or that she was having a bit of fun at someone's expense?

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22 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Wasn't this something that was only in the show?

 

It might very well be. I've tried searching for it and couldn't find it.

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8 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Some people figuring out RLJ does not make it obvious, let alone too obvious.

I'd take a look at the circumstances of that story before taking her words at face value. Think about it for a moment. Let's say RLJ isn't true. GRRM has successfully fooled over 90% of his most dedicated fans up to this point. The eventual R+L=/=J revelation is perfectly set up to be a legendary twist, precisely because almost everyone believes RLJ. And Parris tells people that RLJ isn't true. Really?

What's more likely, that she was undermining GRRM's greatest twist, or that she was having a bit of fun at someone's expense?

I think she was saying she thought the theory was too obvious and that GRRM doesn't do obvious. 

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Sorry. I'm going to take a little break to do some errands, and by the time I come back and eat supper the show will be on. I'll pop in later on to see what's up.

Thank you to everyone here for reading the theory. I really do appreciate the discussion even if we don't disagree! And this is an honest expression, no sarcasm or hidden meaning, just "thank you."  

 

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2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think she was saying she thought the theory was too obvious and that GRRM doesn't do obvious. 

Yes, I know. So I ask again: what is more likely, that she was having a bit of fun at someone's expense, or that she was undermining her future husband's greatest twist? Because when she said that, some people would obviously start to look for the "real" answer, which would undermine the RLJ ruse.

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I like the theory, but considering how they shares premisses, I´d consider the one which uses Ser Porcupine Blouth to be more plausible, or the one with simpler assumptions.

I´ve always suspected Robert´s easy acceptance of the Lannister´s actions during the Rebellion combined with the marriage and Tywin´s apparent lack of interest in Robert´s Small Council - I can see Tywin offering himself as an "alternate tutor" to Robert during some personal crisis the boy might have had with Jon Arryn at some point during the Rebellion, and I can even see Robert accepting it without taking it very seriously or even considering the kind of influence Tywin can have over people.

But I can´t see Robert being an active and premeditated element of the plot to get rid of Lyanna. If nothing else because I don´t believe he would be a good enough actor to fool Ned that he still loves her after so many years.

I also believe Cersei would have already thought, even for a second in one of her POVs, about a plot to become queen.

And I think Ser Boros Blouth is much easier to blame than Ser Barristan Selmy ^^

 

 

My 2 cents regarding how obvious Jon´s parentage is - from my experience, it depends a lot on whether the person sticks to how much Jon looks and tries to act like Ned or to how unshakeable is Ned´s honor. I know three people who read the books around the same time counting me, and only one was not suspicious of something close to RLJ (either through love or prophecy) by the end of the 4th book - the guy who thought Jon was being a little rash and leader-like as a young Ned might have been.

For me, the combination of Jon´s proactivity in the Wall regardless of words in a vow, with Ned´s bad case of poor political planning, and the romantic accounts of fateful Rhaegar and Harrenhal were the things that first made me consider that. We looked it up online after finishing, and I expected to find an infinity of clues I had missed, but I still don´t find it much stronger than most well made theories.

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Great thread! I have been following Sly Wren's thread about Tywin masterminding Lyanna's kidnapping, and it's great to see this earlier theory to which she referred.

I am very much on board with the idea of Tywin as a behind-the-scenes evil mastermind. I love your notion about Ser Kevan and the outlaw band being double agents. That is very consistent with Tywin's later use of Gregor Clegane to pillage and plunder as a method of suppressing rebellion and/or drawing out counter-attacks.

The idea of Robert participating in the staged kidnapping of Lyanna is the only part that doesn't ring true to me. But he might have believed he was working with Tywin on some other level. I like the idea of Tywin executing separate or "back up" plans simultaneously - he liked to use surrogates, cover his own involvement and have alternate options in order to be on the winning side whenever possible.

What if Tywin has a "twin strategy" for the Iron Throne: Cersei marrying Robert is Plan B, but Jaime killing Aerys and taking occupancy of the Iron Throne is Plan A? If Tywin can get to King's Landing fast enough, he can provide military might to back up Jaime's claim and the Lannister dynasty can begin in earnest. Tywin knew Robert would be busy far away at the Ruby Ford. What he didn't factor in was that Ned Stark would get to King's Landing quickly and confront Jaime before Tywin could be there to enforce his claim.

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Robert was privy to Tywin's plans all along and why he dismissed Ned when Ned was trying to tell Robert "the truth" about when Jaime was on the throne and how there was no honor in the conquest. Robert laughed it off, because he already knew.

Thank you for taking the time to read it. I guess I have that at least! Please feel free to "poke" away. Isn't that the point of starting a thread? To generate a discussion?

Maybe Robert was laughing because he couldn't picture Jaime wanting the wretched job of king, or because he wished in retrospect that Ned had allowed Jaime to take the throne. Or maybe he laughed because he had realized in the ensuing years that he had been played by Tywin and Cersei and that he had been miserable for most of that time.

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Interesting read. I don't buy it, but there were certainly aspects that are believable. 

 

And to Ygrain-- it is 100% conjecture to assume Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. Could have been Elia. Could be he died without saying anyone's name. 

Edited by Rhaegar the Unworthy

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5 hours ago, NutBurz said:

But I can´t see Robert being an active and premeditated element of the plot to get rid of Lyanna. If nothing else because I don´t believe he would be a good enough actor to fool Ned that he still loves her after so many years.

I also believe Cersei would have already thought, even for a second in one of her POVs, about a plot to become queen.

And I think Ser Boros Blouth is much easier to blame than Ser Barristan Selmy ^^

I believe Robert was a classic charismatic narcissist. (I said egotist earlier, but I meant narcissist. :P) Just read this description and tell me that it doesn't sound just like Robert:

Narcissists cut a wide, swashbuckling figure through the world. At one end of the self-loving spectrum is the charismatic leader with an excess of charm, whose only vice may be his or her inflated amour-propre. At the far end of the spectrum reside individuals with narcissistic personality disorder, whose grandiosity soars to such heights that they are manipulative and easily angered, especially when they don't receive the attention they consider their birthright. 

Arianne and Arys met more than once. It was a series of trysts until she was sure she had him right where she wanted him. The same is true of Cersei and Robert. He was seduced, and through this connection the thought was introduced. She played on his ego and sense of entitlement, and lured him with her father's support. I'm sure it was a very attractive offer.

 

5 hours ago, NutBurz said:

My 2 cents regarding how obvious Jon´s parentage is - from my experience, it depends a lot on whether the person sticks to how much Jon looks and tries to act like Ned or to how unshakeable is Ned´s honor. I know three people who read the books around the same time counting me, and only one was not suspicious of something close to RLJ (either through love or prophecy) by the end of the 4th book - the guy who thought Jon was being a little rash and leader-like as a young Ned might have been.

 

I'm not even offering up an alternate for Jon's parents. That wasn't the object of this particular essay. I'm actually not too sure Lyanna even gave birth to any child. 

In the Queenmaker chapter the inverted story is that "Little Myrcella" symbolizes both a young Cersei and Lyanna since both were engaged in a marriage contract with Robert. So basically "Little Myrcella" represents "the marriage contract". Recall that Darkstar attacked Myrcella and tried to kill her, cutting off her ear, and nearly cutting the side of her face off. If the inversion theory is true, then Lyanna was similarly attacked, but died later of her wounds. The blue crown that Ned sees in his fever dream and the blue petals blowing in the wind are actually blood, as the color blue symbolizes death. If she were cut across her forehead, the blood could appear like a bleeding crown, and the blood spatter the petals. Lyanna dies, and Cersei ends up marrying Robert, which is exactly what Tywin wanted.

 

5 hours ago, Seams said:

What if Tywin has a "twin strategy" for the Iron Throne: Cersei marrying Robert is Plan B, but Jaime killing Aerys and taking occupancy of the Iron Throne is Plan A? If Tywin can get to King's Landing fast enough, he can provide military might to back up Jaime's claim and the Lannister dynasty can begin in earnest. Tywin knew Robert would be busy far away at the Ruby Ford. What he didn't factor in was that Ned Stark would get to King's Landing quickly and confront Jaime before Tywin could be there to enforce his claim.

 

I'm glad you brought up Jaime, because how did he know that his father meant to sack Kings Landing? Rhaegar believed Tywin was still his ally, so he told his father to send a raven asking for his help. So if there was no conspiracy, why did Jaime leave to go put on his golden Lannister armor before returning to kill Aerys?

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Yes, I know. So I ask again: what is more likely, that she was having a bit of fun at someone's expense, or that she was undermining her future husband's greatest twist? Because when she said that, some people would obviously start to look for the "real" answer, which would undermine the RLJ ruse.

Why does it have to be undermining? I look at it as supporting her husband by saying she knows he's cleverer than that.

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Just now, Feather Crystal said:

Why does it have to be undermining? I look at it as supporting her husband by saying she knows he's cleverer than that.

Referring to the twist he's set up. Assuming R+L=/=J, GRRM has got the vast, vast majority of his audience fooled. We're really set up for an all-time shocker in terms of revelatory twists if Rhaegar is not Jon's father. That being the case, why in God's name would she say anything that could possibly spoil the eventual reveal?

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20 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Referring to the twist he's set up. Assuming R+L=/=J, GRRM has got the vast, vast majority of his audience fooled. We're really set up for an all-time shocker in terms of revelatory twists if Rhaegar is not Jon's father. That being the case, why in God's name would she say anything that could possibly spoil the eventual reveal?

There obviously was no harm done, was there? ;)

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