[Spoiler] EP604

[xi0]

12 minutes ago, tormund's beard said:

not only that even compared to earlier seasons the show has taken a nosedive, i can't believe the 10/10 or 9/10 for every episode this season, this people apparently don't remember how great this show was or their 10 is the same 10 for blackwater hardhome the red wedding and the red woman...

Comparing the books to the show is kind of inevitable, unfortunately. There were changes made way early when the show had less criticism, so I'm not really sure what's happened. I think it's easy to say that the writing looks weaker since they've run out of book material to adapt, but I don't know what goes on in the writer's room. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

10 minutes ago, Lady Snowsand said:

Haven't had time to read all the posts.  Did anyone else notice similarities between Jon and Dany.  Tormund telling Jon that the Wildlings think he is a god and the Dothraki kneeling to Dany like she is a god?

She doesn't have to be a god: one kneels before an absolute monarch.

But yes, in Northrop Frye's famous division of literature into five modes, with both Dany and Jon as protagonists in a Song of Ice and Fire we have moved from the mode of Low Mimesis (protagonists are no better than the reader, like Frodo or crime fiction) or High Mimesis (protagonists are indeed better than the reader, like Boromir; these are heroes we can respect) to that of Romance, the mode of literature whose protagonists are specially marked as something more than mere mortals can ever achieve, so like Aragorn.

I'm somewhat surprised. I knew that Martin had no intention of ever venturing into Mythic (protagonists are gods or demi-gods, like Gandalf), but almost everything he has written has always been Low Mimesis, and sometimes the Ironic mode.  Bumping it up two full notches into the full Romantic mode of literature whose heroes are somehow superhuman is not what I was expecting from him.

[of man and wolf]

Sam killed a White Walker.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

Just now, CrypticWeirwood said:

She doesn't have to be a god: one kneels before an absolute monarch.

But yes, in Northrop Frye's famous division of literature into five modes, with both Dany and Jon as protagonists in a Song of Ice and Fire we have moved from the mode of Low Mimesis (protagonists are no better than the reader, like Frodo or crime fiction) or High Mimesis (protagonists are indeed better than the reader, like Boromir; these are heroes we can respect) to that of Romance, the mode of literature whose protagonists are specially marked as something more than mere mortals can ever achieve, so like Aragorn.

I'm somewhat surprised. I knew that Martin had no intention of ever venturing into Mythic (protagonists are gods or demi-gods, like Gandalf), but almost everything he has written has always been Low Mimesis, and sometimes the Ironic mode.  Bumping it up two full notches into the full Romantic mode of literature whose heroes are somehow superhuman is not what I was expecting from him.

I'm not entirely sure this is the direction he's going in the books, exactly 

[Lord Jeffrey]

4 minutes ago, briantw said:

Well, he is the only person on the show thus far that has actually killed an Other, so that makes him as qualified as anyone.

Don't forget Sam the Slayer.

[Arya Gendry]

2 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

 

[xi0]

4 minutes ago, briantw said:

Well, he is the only person on the show thus far that has actually killed an Other, so that makes him as qualified as anyone.

Actually, Sam did it first. But yeah, I see your point. I just don't think someone who abhorred Melisandre and everything she stood for would be playing cheerleader for her in order to resurrect someone he barely knows. Like I said before, I think combining this with Melisandre becoming a potato is what created the issue for me.

[briantw]

Just now, Lord Jeffrey said:

Don't forget Sam the Slayer.

Oh yeah.  I did forget that.  Okay, so let's call Sam back from Oldtown and let him lead the Watch.  

Actually, that would make for a pretty good alternate universe spin-off.

[tormund's beard]

do you people remember the red weding ? people broke tvs because of that episode, you can't tell me (well you can but i won't take you seriously) that the show is the same quality it was back then

[CrypticWeirwood]

9 minutes ago, briantw said:

Well, he is the only person on the show thus far that has actually killed an Other, so that makes him as qualified as anyone.

Better not tell Sam the Slayer that.

[briantw]

1 minute ago, xi0 said:

Actually, Sam did it first. But yeah, I see your point. I just don't think someone who abhorred Melisandre and everything she stood for would be playing cheerleader for her in order to resurrect someone he barely knows. Like I said before, I think combining this with Melisandre becoming a potato is what created the issue for me.

I guess I can at least see where Melisandre is at as a character.  She's spent the past few weeks realizing that everything she's thought and done for the past several years has all been totally wrong.  That's the kind of thing that shakes someone to their core, and we're seeing that in her character right now.  She's totally fucked up.  I suspect she'll get it together by the end of the season, but seeing Stannis fail had to be a huge blow to her ego and her knowledge of the world.  Add to that Jon flat out telling her there was nothing there when he died and she's had a bad month.

[Israel]

all show cannon having to do with dany and heat:

Dany not even wincing at the scolding bath in 01.01

Dany saying only a real dragon can survive fire

Dany becoming unbernt and hatching dragons

and

Tonights ending

 

[Arya Gendry]

4 minutes ago, hallam said:

Davos was there when Stannis offered him the North and Winterfell if he will support him. And he refused because he had taken an oath. That is the sort of thing that would impress a person like Davos.

More generally, who is left from the noble houses?

House Baratheon and Lannister are down to one heir - Tommen. And house Tyrell is down to Margery and Loras who are both imprisoned by a religious crank. House Martell has just lost its prince. The Starks have been displaced by the Boltons but they are now down to just Ramsay. The vale is down to SweetRobyn and the Greyjoys have Yara and a eunuch.

Seems to me that there isn't very much scope left for dynastic power struggles. Between Robert, Joffrey and Cersei, pretty much all the great houses are now down to one surviving heir if that.

Good Point, but the Greyjoys also have Euron/Aeron/Victarion (maybe). Plenty of Freys left. Edmure Tully may still be alive. And there are 4 1/2 living Starks. I guess it all depends on which houses you include.

[xi0]

4 minutes ago, briantw said:

I guess I can at least see where Melisandre is at as a character.  She's spent the past few weeks realizing that everything she's thought and done for the past several years has all been totally wrong.  That's the kind of thing that shakes someone to their core, and we're seeing that in her character right now.  She's totally fucked up.  I suspect she'll get it together by the end of the season, but seeing Stannis fail had to be a huge blow to her ego and her knowledge of the world.  Add to that Jon flat out telling her there was nothing there when he died and she's had a bad month.

Yeah, I definitely agree. Melisandre's progression at the moment is mostly earned IMO. I just don't know why they decided to have Davos be the one to suggest resurrection to her. I guess it's sort of a corner they wrote themselves into last season, oh well. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by xi0

[briantw]

Just now, xi0 said:

Yeah, I definitely agree. Melisandre's progression at the moment is totally earned IMO. I just don't know why they decided to have Davos being the one to suggest resurrection to her. I guess it's sort of a corner they wrote themselves into last season, oh well. 

That was the problem with having her go with Stannis, kill Shireen for nothing, and watching him utterly and completely fail.  She should have just stayed in Castle Black and heard about it from a raven.  

But yeah they wrote themselves into a corner.  The resurrection scene itself was really shitty too.  

[jbob]

Dany is fireproof. She's the one that's a one off. For some reason, she was chosen to be fireproof. Just like, for some reason, she was chosen to have dragons and that was a one off. Her being fireproof is no more inconsistent than her being the only one to have dragons. Actually, it's even more consistent.

The criticism is unbelievable though. In a series that have character coming back from the dead multiple times, Dany being fireproof bothers you? Really?

Edited May 16, 2016 by jbob

[Morky_Pep]

I'm all for giving Dany agency, and not having her constantly be saved by her dragon. But the problem with this scene is that it was completely idiotic. Lets look past all these "repetitive" comments and realize this was basically the exact same scene from Season 1. How did this plan make any sense at all? What if the lanterns were up on the sides of the shelter and not in the middle ? What if she was tied up and not let freely walk around? How does this plan make ANY sense. She could have died so easily.

I struggle to see how anyone can watch this and think Dany looked good from that scene. She looked like an idiot lol. 

And also, having Drogon swoop in to save her wouldn't be repetitive if you know, they actually used the Pit scene from the book. They made THAT scene all about deus ex drogon and not about Dany's strength and power. So they had to make THIS scene idiotic. I don't give the writers a pass. If the scene doesn't work than come up with something better. How can anyone think this was a believable scene ?

The rest of the episode was mediocre to great. I loved the Jon and Sansa scenes. It gave me hope for the show, until the end.

[jbob]

3 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

I'm all for giving Dany agency, and not having her constantly be saved by her dragon. But the problem with this scene is that it was completely idiotic. Lets look past all these "repetitive" comments and realize this was basically the exact same scene from Season 1. How did this plan make any sense at all? What if the lanterns were up on the sides of the shelter and not in the middle ? What if she was tied up and not let freely walk around? How does this plan make ANY sense. She could have died so easily.

I struggle to see how anyone can watch this and think Dany looked good from that scene. She looked like an idiot lol. 

And also, having Drogon swoop in to save her wouldn't be repetitive if you know, they actually used the Pit scene from the book. They made THAT scene all about deus ex drogon and not about Dany's strength and power. So they had to make THIS scene idiotic. I don't give the writers a pass. If the scene doesn't work than come up with something better. How can anyone think this was a believable scene ?

The rest of the episode was mediocre to great. I loved the Jon and Sansa scenes. It gave me hope for the show, until the end.

What if doesn't apply because she knew where the lanterns were already. There was an entire scene set in that same place. You make it sound like she planned it last season or something.

[Tooms]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Um, there's a ton of evidence in the books that Targaryens aren't fireproof. Jon's burned himself, Viserys has been killed by molten gold, Rhaenrya was dragon fired to death, Aerion drank some wildfire etc.

No but where Dany was unburned is not as yet explained. So there is no evidence one way or another as to whether she could do it again.

[hallam]

5 minutes ago, xi0 said:

No, I suggest you follow your own advice.

You're literally telling people that they shouldn't be allowed to say or think certain things because they aren't capable of creating it themselves. That's very much the definition of ad hominem. Attitudes like that only do a disservice to any reasonable discussion. Calling people "haters" is such a fatuous remark and only seeks to undermine their opinion.

Mind you, I'm not the one here calling D&D idiots or telling people who have no issue with the show today that they're stupid. I just don't think the show is at the level of quality it once was.

No, I am saying that people sound absolutely ridiculous when they try and puff themselves up by throwing insults at the producers.

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy of the form 'Hitler was a vegetarian therefore vegetarianism is evil'. That is the definition of ad hominem whether you like it or not. And no your definition isn't very much like it at all. I am not criticizing people's ideas because of who else agrees with them. 

Take today's upset. People are complaining because Dany eliminates the Khals and sets herself free by herself using a capability that has already been demonstrated in the show. However, consider the following facts:

• Nobody would have had problems with a Drogon rescue even though we had just had one of those and he is unwell.
• Nobody saw this particular mode of escape coming.
• The fact that Dany could be fireproof was already established in the show. It was an escape that they could have predicted if they thought about it.

So people are complaining because D&D didn't tell the obvious story and instead surprised us.