[Spoiler] EP604

[mystiquephreeq]

This is my first post. 

While I feel conflicted about Dany's scene, the fact that the floor caught fire and the fire spread so quickly did not surprise me. Earthen floors are usually oiled with either linseed or perilla oil. This practice has been performed by many cultures. Both oils are flammable. No one would need to put down an accelerant. It was already there and had been placed by the Dothraki. 

[Mrslannistark]

3 hours ago, Arya Gendry said:

In the books it's repeated over and over how much she likes her scalding hot baths. But, she's burned by dragon fire. So maybe that's the thing. She's impervious to fire, but not dragon fire. Maybe it's special, like dragonglass or Valyrian steel. Pure speculation on my part, let the ridicule begin.

Sounds good to me, but I don't remember her getting burned by dragon fire. Do you have a reference you could share, maybe I've forgotten.

[Mrslannistark]

4 minutes ago, mystiquephreeq said:

This is my first post. 

While I feel conflicted about Dany's scene, the fact that the floor caught fire and the fire spread so quickly did not surprise me. Earthen floors are usually oiled with either linseed or perilla oil. This practice has been performed by many cultures. Both oils are flammable. No one would need to put down an accelerant. It was already there and had been placed by the Dothraki. 

Wow! Okay, thanks for the info!

[SamuelVimes]

14 minutes ago, mystiquephreeq said:

This is my first post. 

While I feel conflicted about Dany's scene, the fact that the floor caught fire and the fire spread so quickly did not surprise me. Earthen floors are usually oiled with either linseed or perilla oil. This practice has been performed by many cultures. Both oils are flammable. No one would need to put down an accelerant. It was already there and had been placed by the Dothraki. 

Ooh, interesting! I do wish the show had somehow shown this ("Hey! You! Go get some oil for the floors! What were you saying, Dany?"), but I appreciate the info. Guess I don't hang out on enough dirt floors--or maybe just not on appropriately-cared-for dirt floors!

[Raksha 2014]

27 minutes ago, SamuelVimes said:

As many times as there are blades of grass in the Dothraki sea. As many times as there are grains of sand in Dorne. As many times as Daario gets a woman naked. As many...well, you get the idea... 

 

I thought so too. Still, I suppose it's a good thing she managed to find herself some fireproofing shampoo this time around... 

 

My issue with the fire scene, which tbh generally I liked, was less whether Dany was fireproof (I'm willing to accept that the show's rules here are different from those that Martin has set up, and I'm also not 100% willing to trust things GRRM says in interviews anyway), and more the fact that everything caught on fire so quickly. She throws coals down on a dirt floor and... the dirt floor goes up in flames? It seems from the way that the fire crawls up those steps that there's some kind of accelerating agent being used, but where did that come from? Were Jorah and Daario just carrying a handy container of lighter fluid? (Friend of mine said "Well I've heard the Second Sons piss petrol..." which is a better explanation than most...) I mean, maybe it's the unspecified help that Dany gets from the Lazharene dosh khaleen, but where do you get your hands on an accelerant that quickly--an accelerant that doesn't smell much or discolor anything, so the khals don't notice it? There's a reason that a lot of hearths feature...a dirt floor. Hard to set on fire, dirt floors are.

[edited to add that in the time I spent writing this, a whole discussion happened around that point, so that's kinda been covered. I do think it would've been useful for there to be some kind of explanation, even if only having the old widow say "Gosh isn't it funny how we use benzene to clean the floors..."]

This is one of the reasons I generally liked the scene, aside from dirt catching on fire. Dany's not waiting around to be saved by her dragon--and she's not letting Jorah and Daario save her the way they plan, either. This season so far seems to be the season of the show's women kicking ass and taking names, which is a nice change of pace. (I mean, even Margaery seems to be getting ready to kick some sparrow butt, and she's still in prison.) Well... except Osha. Sigh. 

 

House Baratheon is screwed. House Tyrell, I think, has more options--there was whoever they were offering Sansa really early on, after all, though Margaery and Loras are their key game pieces. There are always more Lannister cousins, even if Lancel keeps on being a little sparrow. House Arryn is suffering from the effects of having Lysa involved in your family line--and that's assuming that Sweetrobin is actually Jon Arryn's, and not Petyr's. 

All this, plus all the focus on strong women this season, plus the idea that the show is going to Bear Island (where you can inherit just fine from the women of the House, who "mate with bears" wink wink and thus don't need to bother marrying), makes me wonder if the show is, on the one hand, moving Westerosi nobility toward a more Dornish approach (speaking of Great Houses down to nothing...)--inheritance in the maternal line.

Now, that won't help Arryn and Baratheon, who I suspect are beyond help (this is what happens when you kill your brother and burn your child, Stannis, you fool; and no one should ever have procreated with Lysa), but it'll work well for Stark, Reed, and several others. 

I suppose there is always the possibility that there's a distant cousin somewhere with a claim to inheritance. (That is generally what happens in real-world nobility / title inheritance. Kill the tsar's family? No prob, we've got cousins.) But I suspect that all of the concern for Houses is going to fall by the wayside when the entirety of Westeros (if not Planetos) gets drastically reshaped by the coming Long Winter. If it's as disastrous as it looks, and given how close to the brink a number of major Houses are, it's entirely likely that by the end of it no one will give a tinker's damn what House you may or may not be from, so long as you're not from the White (Walker) House. 

On the third hand, I might be completely wrong. Astonishing, but possible.

 

I've often thought that GRRM might be moving the Great Houses of Westeros towards female rule or long regencies after (hopefully) the conflicts and wars and winter-dangers end in the last book, perhaps because most of the male heirs will have been killed.  Which could be interesting if the women rulers do as well or better than male lords; and decide to keep their power or change the laws of male inheritance (except in Dorne).

[tmug]

38 minutes ago, Arya Gendry said:

I think he's using details from the scene to prove his point. Fire doesn't roll across dirt naturally. My guess would be oil from the braziers caused it to spread, or accelerate. They showed 2 dead bodies outside of the door. The bloodriders and hordes are off relaxing. They're on vacation. They have nothing to worry about because there are no weapons in VD. They're drinking and doing the nasty. It's not that far-fetched.

This is why it would have been more believable to use Drogon to burn the place down, then all bow to Dany the Boobed and Unburnt.

Instead it seems like either Dany has mind control over fire OR Sir Friendzone and Super Darrio laid oil where Dany would know where to dump the pyres. So is a highly flammable oil totally undetectable to even drunken Dothraki? Odorless? Dry? Maybe they used horse manure as fuel so that Dothraki would never notice.

[Arya Gendry]

2 minutes ago, Mrslannistark said:

Sounds good to me, but I don't remember her getting burned by dragon fire. Do you have a reference you could share, maybe I've forgotten.

Oh my, I don't have automatic recall. I thought that she was burned (slightly) when she escaped the pits on Drogon (in ADWD). I could be totally wrong. It's been a while and I freely admit that between the show, the books, and the passage of time, I'm fuzzy on details. 

[Barty]

I dont know why Danny is fireproof (Targaryens are not fireproof) and frankly I dont care since this is the show and Danny is clearly D&D's favorite character (Why arent the great Khals, some of the greatest warriors of the Dothraki, trying to kill Danny when its obvious she is going to burn them alive?). Obviously this makes watching the show for a Danny hater like me extremely painful.

I do love the Bran scenes and since this episode had none I didnt like it all that much. The Cersei scenes were nice. I have a feeling she's planning to backstab the Tyrells. Btw Jaime says the Tyrells have the 2nd largest army in westeros - So who the hell has the largest?

Never have I ever been so bored in a scene on any TV show ever than I am in the scenes featuring the High Sparrow. Great actor and all but whenever he's off spouting his shit I tend to scream at my screen "No one f*cking cares".

Osha scene was fine - never a surprise. Liked how she says I've seen worse. 

Pink letter!!! Loved it. Now I'm going to get my tinfoil hat on and come out with a crazy theory. Ramsay did not send the Pink Letter. It was SmallJon Umber. Wait just a minute and hear me out.

1. Notice how the letter starts with "You have let the wildlings through the wall and betrayed the North" - Ramsay doesnt give a shit about the wildlings. Umber does. Why would Ramsay start off with that? 

2. No mention of Reek/Theon. In the books whoever sent the letter is adamant about getting his Reek back. There is no mention of Reek here. SmallJon came after Theon escaped so he would not know about Reek.

3. "You will watch as my dogs devour your wild little brother". How does Ramsay know Rickon is wild - Rickon didnt say a word to Ramsay last episode, was well behaved. Umber lived with Rickon for months and knew of Rickon's wild streak. 

4. "His direwolf's skin is on my floor" - Not exactly conclusive but Ramsay got Shaggydog's head, not the body.

5. Lastly it doesnt sound like Ramsay at all. He calls Rickon Jon's brother. Ramsay has always been particular about Jon being a bastard (in the pink letter version in the books) and would almost definitely call Rickon Jon's half brother. 

Its probably nuts and I'm giving D&D way too much credit if I think they can pull this off but you never know. 

 

 

EDIT: Just saw the preview of the next episode. Wtf is LF doing at the wall? How did he get there? It should take months to reach Castle Black from the Vale. D&D dont like logic all that much do they?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Barty

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, Pies are coming said:

Gets incredibly excited about a GOT episode with a Stark meeting and Danerys burning all the Khals and claiming the entire Dokrathi nation for herself.

Looks for a fan site filled with fans to share the joy

Enters Westeros.org by mistake

 

Sorry guys, I'll let you moan and whine about how aweful this awesome episode was. Just in case, does any of you know any ASOIAF/GOT fan site?

It can get so depressing and exhausting here.

[TheGreenBell]

2 hours ago, Every Last Chicken said:

 

The only critique I have of the whole plotline is what was Davos' motivation to bring Jon back to life or even think of asking. Why wouldn't he just have a funeral and be done with it? Other than Stannis seeing something special in Jon during his visit to CB, I can't really come up with any really good reasons.

It's not a deal-breaker or anything for me. I just wish the motivation or reason to bring Jon back was a little more fleshed out for us.

I have been thinking about this for the past few weeks. Really thought right a way that it was quite off that Davos wanted Jon back. They weren't even close friends and etc

[TheGreenBell]

25 minutes ago, Barty said:

 

Pink letter!!! Loved it. Now I'm going to get my tinfoil hat on and come out with a crazy theory. Ramsay did not send the Pink Letter. It was SmallJon Umber. Wait just a minute and hear me out.

1. Notice how the letter starts with "You have let the wildlings through the wall and betrayed the North" - Ramsay doesnt give a shit about the wildlings. Umber does. Why would Ramsay start off with that? 

2. No mention of Reek/Theon. In the books whoever sent the letter is adamant about getting his Reek back. There is no mention of Reek here. SmallJon came after Theon escaped so he would not know about Reek.

3. "You will watch as my dogs devour your wild little brother". How does Ramsay know Rickon is wild - Rickon didnt say a word to Ramsay last episode, was well behaved. Umber lived with Rickon for months and knew of Rickon's wild streak. 

4. "His direwolf's skin is on my floor" - Not exactly conclusive but Ramsay got Shaggydog's head, not the body.

5. Lastly it doesnt sound like Ramsay at all. He calls Rickon Jon's brother. Ramsay has always been particular about Jon being a bastard (in the pink letter version in the books) and would almost definitely call Rickon Jon's half brother. 

Its probably nuts and I'm giving D&D way too much credit if I think they can pull this off but you never know. 

 

 

Legit want this to happen. It needs to happen.

[tmug]

24 minutes ago, TheGreenBell said:

I have been thinking about this for the past few weeks. Really thought right a way that it was quite off that Davos wanted Jon back. They weren't even close friends and etc

It is possible that Davos, Mel, Wildlings plus the Nights Watch heard the story of Jon and what happened at Hardholm. They hear Sam killed a WW but with no witnesses other then a wildling girl. I'm sure they all know how Jon took out a WW with Longclaw. I think they should have snuck that part into the whole reason that Davos wanted him resurrected. Davos was the first and only person to take the NW's raven message about the WW seriously, other than Ms. Red Boobs. They also should have made Davos recollect a resurrection story that Mel told him once about Beric/Thoros so that he would already have knowledge of this capability rather than asking her out of the blue. 

Perhaps Davos has spent a long time on Dragonstone constantly hearing about Rhi'lor and this prophecy of Azor Ahai and being 'reborn'. The show did not delve into this and Davos seems like he is basically playing the role of the viewers who have been clamoring for Jon Snow to return.

[Smoke317]

For once Sansa finally came across like a badass Stark. Even though it took her being in the company of her big brother, I'm ok with that. Maybe now I can somewhat begin to understand all the "Sansa Queen of the North" foolishness. Only somewhat though. At least D&D didn't push that crap and had her always say "our" home and bringing up all her brothers and sister when referring to reclaiming Winterfell. Sansa has always been my least favorite Stark but she's begun to win me over this episode. And Sophie showed great chemistry with Kit. She seemed really comfortable working with him. I hope they keep them paired together for a while. I'm finally ready to accept Sansa as a Stark. 

[Smoke317]

33 minutes ago, TheGreenBell said:

I have been thinking about this for the past few weeks. Really thought right a way that it was quite off that Davos wanted Jon back. They weren't even close friends and etc

And with there allegedly only a season and a half left, I think it would have been good for the show to resurrect Jon on his funeral gpyre with Mel attached. That would have hinted ata Jon/Dany connection. But I think D&D may be saving the real resurrection for GRRM and not wanting to spoil everything from the upcoming book. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Smoke317

[ShadowKitteh]

3 hours ago, xi0 said:

Best part of the episode was Jon and Sansa reuniting. The writing was a bit improved over past episodes IMO. Jon's vows were touched on, Davos finally decided to give a damn about Stannis and Shireen again. 

But for me, the last scene stuck out like a sore thumb. Randomly deciding that Dany is immune to fire in the show-canon isn't an excuse really.

Randomly? Did you see season 1? 

- Dany enters the bath, her handmaiden runs in to stop her, "No my lady! It's too hot." But Dany is fine.

- Dany picks up a dragon egg from the brazier she's been baking them in. Her Dothraki handmaiden runs over and snatches the egg from her hands, burning them in the process. She turns Dany's hands over, which are unhurt, compared to her burned ones - the scene even includes a closeup of both sets of hands.

- Viserys is killed via molten gold to the skull. Dany realizes the difference between them, he died easily from the heat, while she has been unhurt thus far in the show.

- She walks into Drogo's pyre and survives with three baby dragons. 

So are all those lore-filled foundation exposition scenes random? 

Sure, if you've never seen any episodes from the first season, or any subsequent episodes where Dany and other characters continually go on about The Unburnt, or Jorah always talking about her surviving fire..... then sure, yeah, completely random and out of nowhere. Sure. okay.

/sarcasm

I think the show has done a very good job establishing that Dany is impervious to fire, and how that is unique to Dany. Even Joffrey talks about Aerion Brightflame drinking wildfire, and dying. Whereas Jon burnt his hand saving Mormont from the wights.

So tonight, when she grabbed that hot brazier with her hands, no wonder the men just stared at her - your brain would seize if you witnessed that - because your brain couldn't process it. How is she holding that and not screaming her head off. How is her skin not sticking to the hot metal? Not to mention then trying to dodge a wave of flaming oil heading your way.

[ShadowKitteh]

2 hours ago, Morky_Pep said:

I'm all for giving Dany agency, and not having her constantly be saved by her dragon. But the problem with this scene is that it was completely idiotic. Lets look past all these "repetitive" comments and realize this was basically the exact same scene from Season 1. How did this plan make any sense at all? What if the lanterns were up on the sides of the shelter and not in the middle ? What if she was tied up and not let freely walk around? How does this plan make ANY sense. She could have died so easily.

 

She's been in there before, in season 1:

- When she eats the horse's heart.

- When her brother is killed.

- When Drogo swore he would take the Iron Throne for her after the wine merchant almost assassinated her. As she explained in that scene tonight. Perhaps you missed that part.

- Last episode when they brought her to the Dosh Kaleen.

It's a central location, where lots of important Dothraki business happens. That has been established by the show with the many scenes that have already taken place there.

And those are just the scenes we saw. I'm not one of those people who think character only exist when talked about or shown. I believe they continue to exist and talk and have things happen to them, even when not on stage. Dany has likely been in there a lot, especially when she was Kaleesi.

I doubt the layout and location of the braziers changes much. They're heavy braziers filled with oil, and likely lit all the time, since there are no windows.

[stark man boy]

i think show has established danny fireproof sufficiently. i also thought it was clear that the laza khaleesi did some prep work for the tent to catch fire - see how purposeful danny walked to centre podium and fact they connected (she was 16 and not keen on hanging out forever also never wanted to be khaleesi - stolen). don't dothraki oil their hair, they are walking molitovs. i also think it is designed to be repetitive. now she has large dragons, now she has unsullied, now she has free riders and sell swords. now she has dothraki. it is like a 2nd rebirth but this time with purpose. they are similar but different, i'm not sure she knew she would survive funeral pyre but had nothing to loose, this time she knew and it was well planned enough given it was pretty well on the spot with jorah dario and laza khaleesi. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by stark man boy
It was a top notch episode, my fav of this season.

[Darksky]

Outstanding episode, excluding that ending scene which just gets a pass. 

[Darksky]

This place and 4chan/got/, the only sites plunged in constant misery, saltiness and whining.

[ShadowKitteh]

2 hours ago, Morky_Pep said:

Oh this is new. Where did this accelerant come from ? And um idk, because there is 100k dothraki in the vicinity and the only weapon they have is a small knife. Nobody is watching? The khals bloodriders aren't there protecting their khal ? I think they showed like one body ? They had one guard outside lol. Comon man, your going to have to do better than that to hand-wave this away. 

Perhaps you're not familiar with the way lanterns/braziers/torches work. A lantern doesn't just have a wick. It must have oil in order to keep the wick alight. Same principal with a torch, and a brazier. 

That's how braziers work. They're not just standing fireplaces - no one would be able to breathe since there's no chimney. Braziers fuel is mostly the oil itself, which burns a long time, with very little smoke, like lanterns and candles. Dany would be familiar with brazier technology.