[Spoiler] EP604

[Wut Wut]

Couple of questions...

Somebody said the Tyrells have the second largest army in Westeros (I think it was Jaime). Which one is the largest then? The Boltons? Knights of the Vale? The Dornish?

Jon said he killed men he admired. He couldn't be talking about Thorne and co. right?

[Big Daddy]

The Vale. They have a large army that hasn't been worn down in recent wars. Not that Dorne has either for that matter, but I think the narrative implication was always that the Vale was the cavalry being held off for down the line.

[Sand Snakes]

22 minutes ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

I can accept that she is fireproof in the show, but that clearly isin't the case in the books.

We know dragon fire gets hotter the larger a dragon is, these ara not big enough to even come close to melt stone. Take Quentin, he is burnt directly by dragonfire, he dies, but only after four days and didn't melt at all.

In Daznak's Pit Dany isn't badly burnt, mostly because she never gets hit by Drogon's flame, she rolls under it, and just the proximity to the flame is enough to burn away her hair and giver 2nd degree burns in her hands, all of this just by being close to the flames, not in it's path. Based on that, if the same thing happened to book Dany she would have died with the Khals, unless she is magically saved as she was in the pire.

I had forgotten the burns in her hands!!!

The thing is this kind of event that can't be too different from the books. They've changed a lot, mostly to speed things up and dont use as many charachters. But I wonder if they would change so much such a big plot twist. Martin must have domething like that in mind.

[Big Daddy]

Also, with Theon now being in the Iron Islands BEFORE the Kingsmoot...where are they going with this on the show? Is this like  show Jaime being in KL before Joffrey's death and it doesn't matter to the plot? Or are they trying to combine what in the books may end up being two kingsmoots into one? In the books they keep forshadowing doing a mulligan on the kingsmoot because Theon wasn't there by hitting readers over the head a few times that it has happened in the past. Is there a second kingsmoot coming in the books that D+D know about and have put Theon in Pyke to do away with the need for two? And if so, what is the end result of the moot for the story needs?

[Sand Snakes]

10 minutes ago, Wut Wut said:

Couple of questions...

Somebody said the Tyrells have the second largest army in Westeros (I think it was Jaime). Which one is the largest then? The Boltons? Knights of the Vale? The Dornish?

Jon said he killed men he admired. He couldn't be talking about Thorne and co. right?

I think he meant the wildlings he killed.

[bb1180]

10 minutes ago, Wut Wut said:

Jon said he killed men he admired. He couldn't be talking about Thorne and co. right?

Qhorin Halfhand immediately comes to mind.  

[briantw]

28 minutes ago, Big Daddy said:

Also, with Theon now being in the Iron Islands BEFORE the Kingsmoot...where are they going with this on the show? Is this like  show Jaime being in KL before Joffrey's death and it doesn't matter to the plot? Or are they trying to combine what in the books may end up being two kingsmoots into one? In the books they keep forshadowing doing a mulligan on the kingsmoot because Theon wasn't there by hitting readers over the head a few times that it has happened in the past. Is there a second kingsmoot coming in the books that D+D know about and have put Theon in Pyke to do away with the need for two? And if so, what is the end result of the moot for the story needs?

Maybe he'll take Aeron's place from the books and work in secret to bring down Euron?  That, at least, is what I assume Aeron is doing.  I don't think we've had actual confirmation as he has no chapters post-Kingsmoot.

Edited May 16, 2016 by briantw

[Blade of Sunlight]

15 minutes ago, Sand Snakes said:

I had forgotten the burns in her hands!!!

The thing is this kind of event that can't be too different from the books. They've changed a lot, mostly to speed things up and dont use as many charachters. But I wonder if they would change so much such a big plot twist. Martin must have domething like that in mind.

I expect her to be able to convince the dothraki much more easily in the books, she faces a khalasar with Drogon. The khalaser will likely yield, possibly she kills the Khal and bloodriders, she will then likely go to Vaes Dothrak and there convince the Dosh Kaleen that the Dothraki should follow them.

13 minutes ago, Big Daddy said:

Also, with Theon now being in the Iron Islands BEFORE the Kingsmoot...where are they going with this on the show? Is this like  show Jaime being in KL before Joffrey's death and it doesn't matter to the plot? Or are they trying to combine what in the books may end up being two kingsmoots into one? In the books they keep forshadowing doing a mulligan on the kingsmoot because Theon wasn't there by hitting readers over the head a few times that it has happened in the past. Is there a second kingsmoot coming in the books that D+D know about and have put Theon in Pyke to do away with the need for two? And if so, what is the end result of the moot for the story needs?

I don't get where they are going, if Euron gets elected Theon's arrival is useless, if Theon/Asha win then Euron is useless, the only useful result would be is the IB split, half go with Euron to Mereen (I guess) and half stays with Theon/Asha, doing what? I don't know.

[Jaime4Brienne]

I'd be all for the Tormund/Brienne pairing (can you imagine their offspring?) if I wasn't a huge Jaime/Brienne shipper. I picture it going something like this. "I recognize the honor you do me Tormund but alas I'm in love with Ser Jaime."   

Seriously though, at least Tormund would respect her as a fighter and not try to hold her back.

[yushkevitch]

15 hours ago, RadSam said:

Even if it was a stretch (I don't think so), who cares? It moved the story along. If she didn't go through with that plan, or the plan failed and she was still stuck in Vaes Dothrak, people would be complaining that her story was going to slow.

If it wasn't apparent in my response, let me clarify I thought the scene was fine overall. It did move the story along and likely confirmed my own belief, going back how GRRM left her in her last scene in ADwD, that she'd be reunited with the Dothraki and take them across the Narrow Sea as her new army.

I did understand why some viewers may have felt the scene was unrealistic - or perhaps too convenient - however, I was making the point that just because the situation in the temple was just right for her plan, it doesn't necessarily mean she had only one way to accomplish her goal. Once she got in there and saw her plan could work and moved forward with it.

Had things not been ideal (lanterns moved, Dothraki spread out, etc.) she may very well have abandoned her original plan and tried to win them over, rather than killing them. Again, we'll never know, but personally, I had no problems with how things played out.

[PromethiumWings]

Certainly the strongest episode so far in this season. I din't like that Daenerys apparently can accelerate flames in addition to being resistant to them and that the pink letter did jack shit. Sansa first had to convince Jon to fight and then the letter came and he still hesitated and she still had to convince him again and he didn't even give his great speech from the books. That blew, but I like most of the rest of the stuff. Here is a more in-depth analysis: https://promethiumwings.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/a-review-of-s6e4-of-game-of-thrones/ 

[Darksky]

This season wins all the awards for Tormund-Brienne and Tormund-Brienne-Edd scenes alone. Haven't legit LOLed like I  did at a comic relief sequence in any show for a long while now. That was pure gold. 

[Kyll.Ing.]

In short, I really liked this episode. War drums beating in King's Landing, in the Vale, in the North and in Vaes Dothrak. Something big is rising, on several fronts.

Robin Arryn seems to have grown into adolescence since we last saw him. He's still friggin' useless, rude, can't keep his focus, and is easily manipulated. He might not be a villain, but he's not written to be likeable, that's clear.

Brienne/Tormund shipping... well, in some ways, it would fit.

Also, the first few pages of this thread are fun to read. Certain people claiming to hate the show, yet they make sure to be logged in here as they watch the episode, the minute it comes out, to liveblog their criticism, and they keep coming back week after week. "I don't like it... but I'm going to watch and discuss it as soon as it airs!". Complaining and moaning, moaning and complaining, yet working hard to be early on the ball, like clockwork, every week. You are so full of "class".

It's almost as fun as those who've been saying "That's it, I give up on this show" since season 3, yet still make sure to post essentially that very same sentence within an hour of every new episode's release. You'd think they'd at least have the capacity to understand how this makes them look. Not classy and above it all, but struggling desperately to appear as such, and failing spectacularly. It'd be sad if it wasn't so funny.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Kyll.Ing.

[hallam]

5 hours ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

The Vale is what it is, not bad, though I find it strange that the 2nd most powerful lord of the vale was so easily intimidated, and as I seem to recall, in the books he was one of the major supporters of helping the Starks in the first place.

I thought it a fair point that Sansa was only ever in danger because Petyr had sold her to them. 

3 hours ago, JMJ said:

Seriously, who in seven hells gives a crap about the High Sparrow's f'ing shoes?

The High Sparrow. He is a religious nut. 

And Lancel. 

Don't know whether the Sand Snakes or Lancel is going to skewer Tommen but one of them will.

2 hours ago, Wut Wut said:

Couple of questions...

Somebody said the Tyrells have the second largest army in Westeros (I think it was Jaime). Which one is the largest then? The Boltons? Knights of the Vale? The Dornish?

Jon said he killed men he admired. He couldn't be talking about Thorne and co. right?

I think he meant Mance Raider.

1 hour ago, briantw said:

Maybe he'll take Aeron's place from the books and work in secret to bring down Euron?  That, at least, is what I assume Aeron is doing.  I don't think we've had actual confirmation as he has no chapters post-Kingsmoot.

Yes, it fits the pattern of collapsing multiple characters into one. GRRM can kill off book Theon or not or leave him in the middle of nowhere for three books. D&D can only keep actors under contract as long as they are paying them and they are getting at least some screen time. So use Sansa instead of fake Arya and use Theon instead of Aeron. Works for me.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

16 hours ago, Tooms said:

No but where Dany was unburned is not as yet explained. So there is no evidence one way or another as to whether she could do it again.

There's a bug implication in the books that MMD was trying to cast a spell to make herself fireproof but the flames reached her too quickly and backfired on her protecting Daenerys instead 

[Bluesnow]

Overall- I enjoyed the episode, but I am having some issues

Kingslanding: HS- as much as i love the actor- his scenes are getting repetitive and drawn out really quick. I feel like the show writers aren't sure what to do with Jaime.... he feels like a backround character after these last few episodes. I was really hoping to see maybe him and Tommen bond, or talk about him being his father like with Myrcella- but there's' been no real development.
I like that the Queen of Thornes is there.... but I feel like her personality is pretty subdued compared to normal.  Some witty banter would be nice. 

The North:
When Sansa came through the gate- even before Jon came out I was screaming "OMG!!! JOOOONNN!!! HUG YOUR SISTER!!! YOU BOTH NEED SOME MAJOR HUGS!!!!"
And then the scene with Tormund and Brienne.... It was adorable xD I need more. 
Sansa snatching the letter out of Jon's hand to read the rest was great as well. 
The Scene with her and Jon alone- I was also happy that Sansa apologized for being a brat. She didn't have to... I mean... she was a kid, but the fact that she recognizes how she acted before was wrong shows how much she's grown. I would have liked if they had thrown in there a story about something they did as children though- As far as I'm aware this is the first interaction between these two characters in the entire series- so it would have been nice for them to talk about their childhood a little more to establish just how life changing it is that they're back in each other's lives.  

I did not like that Jon was a total downer for most of this episode. Maybe he was trying to be realistic? But realistically where would they have gone if not home? Did he think he would run off to a warm southern village, change their names, become a shoe maker to support him and his cute sister, and live in peace happily ever after xD His sister has been through hell and back- escaping her rapist crazy husband she turned to her older brother for protection- Any other response from Jon other than "I'll be there and support you 100%, we'll make this alright again and I'll have Ramsey's head on a pike for what he's done to you!" was not acceptable. Instead of Jon having to reassure her- she had to give him the pep talk (which was awesome, but still.)

At Winterfell I knew things weren't going to go well for Osha, but I wasn't expecting her to go out that quick. 
Even though I dislike the outcome, I still enjoyed to scene over all.... But I felt the death served no plot driven purpose overall other than shock value- so I'm having a hard time swallowing it. Even Doran and Roose's rushed demises, while stupid, served a plot purpose. 
At least she wasn't tortured, and she was awesome till the very end. 

Essos: 
I'm curious to see how things play out with Tyrion's plans- I am hoping there is more to it than just buying time- because all that meeting accomplished was ticking off the slaves and telling the slave masters they can keep what they already have- but only for 7 years. If anything I felt it empowered them because they know Danny is not there and there was no definitive time frame for when she would return. 
Tyrion's played this game before - so I have a feeling there's more up his sleeve than what been shown. 
Maybe his free girls are ex-slaves with a vendetta and will stab them in their sleep? 
 

For all the nitpicking I've seen people doing- I have no issue with Dany frying the Khals. 
She doesn't need her dragons.... she doesn't need her men...  she's not just some damsel in distress, she is the DRAGON! 
And now she has a HUGE army.... but what is she going to do with it at this point i wonder. 

Why was this episode called Book of the stranger? 
After watching it I feel it should have been called SISTERS!
The entire episode was about how women can be just as strong or stronger than their male counterparts. 
Maybe it was called book of the stranger because these lady's aren't worshiping the Mother or the Maiden the way they're living their lives. 
 

[Tooms]

14 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

There's a bug implication in the books that MMD was trying to cast a spell to make herself fireproof but the flames reached her too quickly and backfired on her protecting Daenerys instead 

Yes, this also ties into the great Dorne conspiracy ... Or at least a conspiracy where you believe MMD was sent to steal her Dragon eggs but getting into Dany's confidences by healing Drogo. Of course Drogo messed that up by not following MMD's instructions and basically killed himself.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 minutes ago, Bluesnow said:

 

The entire episode was about how women can be just as strong or stronger than their male counterparts. 
Maybe it was called book of the stranger because these lady's aren't worshiping the Mother or the Maiden the way they're living their lives. 
 

This. Probably why I liked the episode so much. 

 

Sansa & Jon were amazing. Tormund & Brienne were hilarious. 

I was pretty disappointed in Tyrion's solution for the slaves even though I understand he has a valid point. I really want for Dany to return & Tyrion have managed the city amazingly & I feel like he isn't starting out well. But we will see. 

Oh & why can D&D not pronounce anyone's names right?! 

Wish Arya was in the episdoe. 

I like book Jaime a lot better than show Jaime. Idk what his purpose is right now. Cersei & QoT = watch out high sparrow. 

I'm getting a little bored with Ramsay. I'm curious to see how things in the book will play out in Winterfell since they obviously can't be identical to the show. I hope they don't kill Shaggy dog in the books :'( 

I thought the Dany scenes were great. Jorah & Daario were a little bland but it didn't last long. 

Theon & Asha were great as well. He is such an amazing actor.

I'd have to watch them all again to be sure but I think this may have been my favorite episode in many seasons.

 

 

[Fisch]

Thoughts while watching:

 - The reunion at Castle Black. It was poorly paced. The blocking was awkward. The direction was workmanlike at best. I still loved it.

 - I said at the end of last week's episode that I was happy with Jon's resignation, but that the follow-up mattered. So far, so good on that count. That Jon would be left so shell-shocked by his murder and so thrown by the oblivion he faced that he would lose the will to go on fighting the battles he must fight and want to go somewhere warm and peaceful - I totally buy it. Kit has done a great job playing that note so far. His performance during the hanging last week gave hint to the idea that, knowing what comes from death, he found it much harder to carry out the execution; his comments about Olly this week give further support to that idea. It's one of the few times I've felt these people managed subtext well, and it achieved the impossible: it gave Olly a f**king point!

 - Where I had a bit of trouble with Jon's character is his total dismissal of the White Walkers. I accept his turning his back on the wars to come, but I don't accept the lack of any sort of sign that he knows he's wrong to forget about that threat. They needed something; it could have just been an overlong close-up on an ambiguous expression.

 - Sansa being the one to take the initiative in reclaiming Winterfell and securing the North; fine with it. Great that she's making some conscious plans for herself. A lot of her dialogue was colorless and expository (more on that later), but I still enjoyed it. Maybe it's just because the Stark/Snow material is what I'm most looking forward to reading in TWoW, and even though I know it'll be vastly different from what we're seeing this season, it's at least a taste.

 - The leftovers of Team Stannis. I haven't had a problem with Davos not mentioning Shireen and Stannis up to this point. Last season, what we saw was Mel arrive back at the Wall, give the bad news via a look, Davos looking devastated, and then the assassination happened that night (or at least the editing implied). I've just assumed that, with all that's gone on, Davos hasn't been in a state to make inquiries. But he starts to make them here. This was the weakest scene on the Wall this week IMO, and for the same reason that the ToJ was so frustrating last week: there isn't a good reason within the logic of the scene to delay the big reveal, so instead of being suspenseful, it comes off as foot-dragging for the sake of padding out the season. I grant that Brienne butting into the conversation is a better interruption than some mystical BS about staying in a flashback for an extra two minutes, but it still came off as cheap.

 - Mel's jump to allegiance to Jon also seems a little fast. Then again, her abandonment of Stannis was worse, so...small victories.

 - Tormund flirting with Brienne: never thought of them as a pair (not really one for shipping in general, really), but it was funny. Why couldn't we have gotten more of this Tormund in earlier seasons?

 - GRRM has said that he was impressed with the show's take on Osha, and was even considering doing something more substantial with the character when she reappears in TWoW. I suspect he'll give her a better role and a better send-off (assuming she dies) than this episode. Ramsay's depravations have become so excessive that they aren't frightening, shocking, or effective anymore; they're just dull. It didn't help that the scene had such dull direction.

 - Tyrion's politicking. Dry, colorless, expository dialogue. Dull direction. Flat, lifeless pacing. I still enjoyed it. It allowed for getting into some shades of grey and the difficult choices that need to be made in reforming a society like that, and even if the execution wasn't stellar, it was better than the "go nowhere" scenes they wrote for Dany the past two seasons.

 - Since I've mentioned it a few times already: the directing. GoT has never had incredibly daring or creative direction. It's never taken the risks of playing with structure and staging that a show like The Sopranos did (it's also never given its audience the credit that The Sopranos did in trusting people to remember detail and pick up on key information without a lot of heavyhanded exposition, but that's another issue). I'd even go so far as to argue that the RW wasn't all that well staged (well, it was staged in a very..."conventional" way, let's put it like that), and that the power of that moment came from the actors and the writing. But the show has had some solid blocking, staging, and directing in the past, and even some great directing: the Battle of Castle Black comes to mind. This season has had some of the most uninspired, lifeless, and workmanlike directing I've seen in a production of this caliber. The constant exposition and often stiff dialogue can't help, but this is just sad. The guys I went to film school with could do more to make dull material have some sort of pace and energy.

 - A nitpick, but: compared to other episodes, scenes, and storylines (Dorne and that stupid "we are not men" line come to mind), this episode managed to showcase women stepping into power and agency in a meaningful way, one that didn't rely on cheap cliches or degrading the male gender to compensate. So it's pretty annoying that, in the "OTS" shot where Tyrion and Varys are on the stairs outside and turn to talk to Miss and Grey, they famed the shot to showcase Miss's bum.

 - The High Sparrow. Getting really bored with his speeches.

 - Having said last season that the expansion of the Tyrells' roles wasn't worth the time it took away from more important characters, I am actually interested in what Margerey is up to. But I couldn't care less about the rest of KL. Jaime is especially dull this season. If I remember some comments from the actor correctly, we are meant to see him start to lose faith in Cersei at some point, but it's too late in his story for that, and it's not going to magically clean up the lousy writing he's gotten so far this season. A good act does not wash away the bad, nor the bad the good.

 - The Greyjoys: don't care.

 - Littlefinger's plans: surprisingly, given how they intersect with the Starks, I don't really care here either.

 - Dany. On the one hand, she's making conscious choices and taking initiative in a way that we haven't seen for several seasons now. Her big scene was the one moment of this episode that I found well-staged and well-directed. On the other hand, they've done such a piss-poor job with her story line in the past few seasons that I can't say I've retained a lot of interest. The Dothraki never appealed to me, even in the books, so their reintroduction as a major force doesn't exactly thrill me. And I've never been totally clear on the rules surrounding Targs and fire, but something seemed off in the way this was handled. And I didn't know that stone was flammable.

Overall: I enjoyed this episode a lot, more than I enjoyed Episode 2. When it comes to the actual quality, however, I'd say it's as mixed a bag as most of the product these past two-and-a-half seasons.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Fisch

[Titan]

1 hour ago, Fisch said:

And I've never been totally clear on the rules surrounding Targs and fire, but something seemed off in the way this was handled.

Why do people (not just you) keep transposing Dany's fire proof-ness to all Targaryans, as if it was a family trait. IT IS NOT. Not in the books. And not in the show.

It is a DANY specific thing, in both the book and the show.