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Just now, El Guapo said:

You think the Dothraki frequently redecorate the place or something? I mean this is silly.

The point is that this amazing plan could be so easily thwarted. It was a silly PLAN. I wish they had put the scene in where she tells this plan to Jorah and Dario, I really would'a liked to have seen their reactions to it. "Hey, so u guys watch outside and I'm gunna go in there and push over some brazier to burn the place down" lolll

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1 minute ago, Morky_Pep said:

The point is that this amazing plan could be so easily thwarted. It was a silly PLAN. I wish they had put the scene in where she tells this plan to Jorah and Dario, I really would'a liked to have seen their reactions to it. "Hey, so u guys watch outside and I'm gunna go in there and push over some brazier to burn the place down" lolll

Nobody seems to have mentioned what a turning point this is for her character.  She's pretty much always been wrong about everything up till now.  This is a sea change for her in which everything changes. 

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3 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

The point is that this amazing plan could be so easily thwarted. It was a silly PLAN. I wish they had put the scene in where she tells this plan to Jorah and Dario, I really would'a liked to have seen their reactions to it. "Hey, so u guys watch outside and I'm gunna go in there and push over some brazier to burn the place down" lolll

What would the alternate plan have been? 15 versus 1, no weapons in the whole city (save one), and don't you think if she could summon a dragon she would have done it before? Like, I don't know, when she was bound and forcibly marched to Vaes Dothrak? I mean, I get that you hate it, and that's fine, but what would you have preferred? What would you have found acceptable?

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Just now, CrypticWeirwood said:

Nobody seems to have mentioned what a turning point this is for her character.  She's pretty much always been wrong about everything up till now.  This is a sea change for her in which everything changes. 

Again, I am all for character development and make Dany a more strong ruler and character. That shouldn't be at the expense of a interesting and logical plot though. Like I said in a previous post, they would have already had that change if they had kept the Daznak Pit scene from the book. Instead, Dany looked worthless in the scene. If instead she had whipped Drogon into submission like in the book. Using him to cow the Khals would then be a part of her empowerment and not a cop out of her being saved by Drogon.  

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It wasn't a dumb plan for the same reason walking into Drogo's funeral pyre wasn't a dumb plan. Actually, I'd say this one had a much higher probability of a good outcome. Dany knows who and what she is, again, finally (at least in the show). She's a prophesied Dragon Queen and not a shitty politician.

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Just now, Greg B said:

It wasn't a dumb plan for the same reason walking into Drogo's funeral pyre wasn't a dumb plan. Actually, I'd say this one had a much higher probability of a good outcome. Dany knows who and what she is, again, finally (at least in the show). She's a prophesied Dragon Queen and not a shitty politician.

Your seriously going to compare this scene to that season 1 scene ? Night and Day quality difference in tone, believability, and effectiveness. 

Her being immune to fire is not why I think the scene is dumb. It is dumb because the idea that she can take out all the khals by knocking over a brazier is stupid. To think that the place would erupt into flames with 10 seconds before the khals at the very least snapped her neck before they burned to death is stupid. The idea that Jorah and Dario can walk up to this temple and bar the doors in a camp of 100k Dothraki is stupid. Literally turn to your friend and tell them Dany's plan out loud as if she was telling Dario and Jorah. If it doesn't sound stupid to your ears, than I really can't help you. Now you don't have to care that it is stupid, that is fine. But lets call it what it is.  The whole scene wreaks of plot contrivance and weak writing. 

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2 hours ago, marsyao said:

I used to be a big fan of the first 3 seasons of the show, now wathching the show is like watching someone beating the girl I used to love dearly

And when many of us enjoyed this episode more than any other for ages, seeing your posts today is like watching someone beating (over and over again) the girl we still love dearly..

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11 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Nobody seems to have mentioned what a turning point this is for her character.  She's pretty much always been wrong about everything up till now.  This is a sea change for her in which everything changes. 

Umm yes and no.

Danny has been pretty good on the burning things and breaking things front for a while. Its what happens after that is the challenge.

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

D&D aren't the people who persuaded HBO to take the series? I think that you will find that the sequence of events was that they decided they wanted to do a series on the books, then then got GRRM on board and then they got the HBO execs on board.

Without them, no series.

So when folk are talking them down about how miserably stupid they are, I think to myself that they have actually produced the most successful series on television and the critics have not. So when people try to puff themselves up and make themselves appear important by running them down, I come to a rather different conclusion to the one intended.

 

I misread you. My apologies. I thought the people referred to in the second sentence were the same as those the first sentence was about.

 

As for the second sentence, I must disagree. Most Successful doesn't mean Best. It doesn't even necessarily mean Good. It certainly doesn't mean it is, or should be, immune from criticism.

However, I do draw the line at personally attacking someone for having a different opinion, as one particular person has done here. Fortunately I blocked them some time back.

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5 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

To think that the place would erupt into flames with 10 seconds before the khals at the very least snapped her neck before they burned to death is stupid. The idea that Jorah and Dario can walk up to this temple and bar the doors in a camp of 100k Dothraki is stupid. . 

It's obvious an accelerant was used, and why should it be difficult to bar the doors?

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1 minute ago, The Black Adder of Dorne said:

It's obvious an accelerant was used, and why should it be difficult to bar the doors?

Oh this is new. Where did this accelerant come from ? And um idk, because there is 100k dothraki in the vicinity and the only weapon they have is a small knife. Nobody is watching? The khals bloodriders aren't there protecting their khal ? I think they showed like one body ? They had one guard outside lol. Comon man, your going to have to do better than that to hand-wave this away. 

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3 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

Nobody is watching?

Ever heard of stealth? You know, the same tactic that's been used in the books several times?

2 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

Oh this is new. Where did this accelerant come from ?

Oil is not hard to get your hands on in a city with a market. She had three collaborators with her.

And for goodness sake, learn to spell.

 

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3 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

Oh this is new. Where did this accelerant come from ? And um idk, because there is 100k dothraki in the vicinity and the only weapon they have is a small knife. Nobody is watching? The khals bloodriders aren't there protecting their khal ? I think they showed like one body ? They had one guard outside lol. Comon man, your going to have to do better than that to hand-wave this away. 

I think he's using details from the scene to prove his point. Fire doesn't roll across dirt naturally. My guess would be oil from the braziers caused it to spread, or accelerate. They showed 2 dead bodies outside of the door. The bloodriders and hordes are off relaxing. They're on vacation. They have nothing to worry about because there are no weapons in VD. They're drinking and doing the nasty. It's not that far-fetched.

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3 hours ago, NOT A TARG I SWEAR said:

Also, why would they be thrilled with somebody that just burnt down their holy structure?

I don't think they were thrilled. I think to them it was a stupendous event.  Something tremendous and terrible that they were inclined to kneel down (?). They are of course a largely superstitious lot too. Who knows, this might be one of those old Dothraki prophecies.

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Just now, The Black Adder of Dorne said:

Ever heard of stealth? You know, the same tactic that's been used in the books several times?

Oil is not hard to get your hands on in a city with a market. She had three collaborators with her.

And for goodness sake, learn to spell.

 

Comes at me for my spelling. Woooooooo....

Ya I can see stealth maybe being possible. It stretches credulity though. I mean they literally just got caught a few scenes before just wandering doing nothing sneaky. But now they can get up right to the Dothraki's important temple and bar the door with ALL the khals inside.  I guess your one of the people that thought Ramsey's 20 good men made perfect sense. :/

How did they apply the oil in the building ? None of this was shown? I guess Dario and Jorah broke into the temple before the audience and applied it ? Dang these guys are good.

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6 minutes ago, Arya Gendry said:

I think he's using details from the scene to prove his point. Fire doesn't roll across dirt naturally. My guess would be oil from the braziers caused it to spread, or accelerate. They showed 2 dead bodies outside of the door. The bloodriders and hordes are off relaxing. They're on vacation. They have nothing to worry about because there are no weapons in VD. They're drinking and doing the nasty. It's not that far-fetched.

I really don't think the writers put that much thought into the scene. Off vacationing ? In my last post I mentioned how they JUST got caught walking around the premises and attacked for doing NOTHING sneaky. Those were GUARDS. But they have only two guards at the building where ALL THEIR LEADERS are at. 

 

It boggles my mind how many hoops people will jump through to explain this stuff. It's fine if you don't care about these convenient plots. But how can you honestly sit there and say that this was a coherent and amazingly executed scene. 

Edited by Morky_Pep

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15 minutes ago, Morky_Pep said:

Oh this is new. Where did this accelerant come from ? And um idk, because there is 100k dothraki in the vicinity and the only weapon they have is a small knife. Nobody is watching? The khals bloodriders aren't there protecting their khal ? I think they showed like one body ? They had one guard outside lol. 

Watch again as the unburnt queen exits the conflagration: there are clearly two bodies lying outside the doors.

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4 hours ago, Lady Sansa's Direwolf said:

How many times will Littlefinger switch the truth to his own ends?

As many times as there are blades of grass in the Dothraki sea. As many times as there are grains of sand in Dorne. As many times as Daario gets a woman naked. As many...well, you get the idea... 

 

3 hours ago, Chloe.a.thomson said:

Yeah, I thought the pyre was a one time magical event....

I thought so too. Still, I suppose it's a good thing she managed to find herself some fireproofing shampoo this time around... 

 

My issue with the fire scene, which tbh generally I liked, was less whether Dany was fireproof (I'm willing to accept that the show's rules here are different from those that Martin has set up, and I'm also not 100% willing to trust things GRRM says in interviews anyway), and more the fact that everything caught on fire so quickly. She throws coals down on a dirt floor and... the dirt floor goes up in flames? It seems from the way that the fire crawls up those steps that there's some kind of accelerating agent being used, but where did that come from? Were Jorah and Daario just carrying a handy container of lighter fluid? (Friend of mine said "Well I've heard the Second Sons piss petrol..." which is a better explanation than most...) I mean, maybe it's the unspecified help that Dany gets from the Lazharene dosh khaleen, but where do you get your hands on an accelerant that quickly--an accelerant that doesn't smell much or discolor anything, so the khals don't notice it? There's a reason that a lot of hearths feature...a dirt floor. Hard to set on fire, dirt floors are.

[edited to add that in the time I spent writing this, a whole discussion happened around that point, so that's kinda been covered. I do think it would've been useful for there to be some kind of explanation, even if only having the old widow say "Gosh isn't it funny how we use benzene to clean the floors..."]

3 hours ago, mykeuva said:

I think this was better than having a dragon come save her, again. Here, she has agency, she doesn't need a savior. She asserts herself and is wholly successful for the first time in a long time (I'm thinking since the time she acquired the unsullied.) Plus, I think most were expecting the dragon flying in to save the day. This makes her stronger. She proves she has an inner strength by formulating how to unite the hordes and kill the khals....and she has dragons.

It makes her more formidable.

This is one of the reasons I generally liked the scene, aside from dirt catching on fire. Dany's not waiting around to be saved by her dragon--and she's not letting Jorah and Daario save her the way they plan, either. This season so far seems to be the season of the show's women kicking ass and taking names, which is a nice change of pace. (I mean, even Margaery seems to be getting ready to kick some sparrow butt, and she's still in prison.) Well... except Osha. Sigh. 

 

1 hour ago, hallam said:

More generally, who is left from the noble houses?

House Baratheon and Lannister are down to one heir - Tommen. And house Tyrell is down to Margery and Loras who are both imprisoned by a religious crank. House Martell has just lost its prince. The Starks have been displaced by the Boltons but they are now down to just Ramsay. The vale is down to SweetRobyn and the Greyjoys have Yara and a eunuch.

Seems to me that there isn't very much scope left for dynastic power struggles. Between Robert, Joffrey and Cersei, pretty much all the great houses are now down to one surviving heir if that.

House Baratheon is screwed. House Tyrell, I think, has more options--there was whoever they were offering Sansa really early on, after all, though Margaery and Loras are their key game pieces. There are always more Lannister cousins, even if Lancel keeps on being a little sparrow. House Arryn is suffering from the effects of having Lysa involved in your family line--and that's assuming that Sweetrobin is actually Jon Arryn's, and not Petyr's. 

All this, plus all the focus on strong women this season, plus the idea that the show is going to Bear Island (where you can inherit just fine from the women of the House, who "mate with bears" wink wink and thus don't need to bother marrying), makes me wonder if the show is, on the one hand, moving Westerosi nobility toward a more Dornish approach (speaking of Great Houses down to nothing...)--inheritance in the maternal line.

Now, that won't help Arryn and Baratheon, who I suspect are beyond help (this is what happens when you kill your brother and burn your child, Stannis, you fool; and no one should ever have procreated with Lysa), but it'll work well for Stark, Reed, and several others. 

I suppose there is always the possibility that there's a distant cousin somewhere with a claim to inheritance. (That is generally what happens in real-world nobility / title inheritance. Kill the tsar's family? No prob, we've got cousins.) But I suspect that all of the concern for Houses is going to fall by the wayside when the entirety of Westeros (if not Planetos) gets drastically reshaped by the coming Long Winter. If it's as disastrous as it looks, and given how close to the brink a number of major Houses are, it's entirely likely that by the end of it no one will give a tinker's damn what House you may or may not be from, so long as you're not from the White (Walker) House. 

On the third hand, I might be completely wrong. Astonishing, but possible. ;)

Edited by SamuelVimes

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Just now, Morky_Pep said:

I really don't think the writers put that much thought into the scene. Off vacationing ? In my last post I mentioned how they JUST got caught walking around the premises and attacked for doing NOTHING sneaky. Those were GUARDS. But they have only two guards at the building where ALL THEIR LEADERS are at. 

I see what you're saying. They did get caught, very true, and they fought their way out of it. My point about "vacationing" was that because they are in a secure place, with ALL of the hordes present, they may have been lulled into a false sense of security that made them feel like a giant force of guards wasn't necessary. It is a meeting of the strongest of the strong warriors in the world. They're secure inside their own compound. Any threat would have to come from outside of VD, and they would be alerted to that way in advance. I find it extremely plausible that they would take a meeting with a girl without dozens of guards.

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1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

What does “agency” mean here? This is a pop usage not yet in any dictionary I've found.

You mean her not needing an agent to act for her?  What is this thing "agency" supposed to mean?

In social science, agency is the capacity of individuals to act independently and to make their own free choices.

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