[Poll] How would you rate episode 604?

[Hol Horse]

16 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Ramsay used the knife he was cutting the apple with. How did you miss that? You are ranting just to rant and that proves it. Please be more careful with future posts.

That's false.

Perhaps doth should taketh thy own advice-eth.

[Darkstream]

14 minutes ago, Vastet said:

"Ramsay used the knife he was cutting the apple with. How did you miss that? You are ranting just to rant and that proves it. Please be more careful with future posts."

Actually he didn't. He laid that knife on the table to tempt Osha. But he didn't pull a knife out of nowhere either. He planned that encounter completely. Every single detail.

@ Darkstream

I'm perfectly willing to accept some don't like the show, and their reasons for it are perfectly valid to them. I can't argue it, because I'm not them.

But anyone who would rate any episode a 1 is going well beyond disliking the show. They want to piss off the people who like it. They want to convince others to hate it too. They are still watching a show they hate just so they can tear it apart without it being obvious they don't even watch it. That is the very definition of hating for the sake of hating.

The same can be said for the drones of people rating a show that has a lot of undeniable flaws a ten. Everybody has the right to vote based on their own personal views. Why bother having a one on the scale. Might as well be rate from 5-10.

ETA: you are making a lot of baseless assumptions as to other people's motives.. I again could make the exact argument for the other side. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Darkstream

[Jack Bauer 24]

9 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

The same can be said for the drones of people rating a show that has a lot of undeniable flaws a ten. Everybody has the right to vote based on their own personal views. Why bother having a one on the scale. Might as well be rate from 5-10.

ETA: you are making a lot of baseless assumptions as to other people's motives.. I again could make the exact argument for the other side. 

Are you still watching? This is an honest question.

[Vastet]

"The same can be said for the drones of people rating a show that has a lot of undeniable flaws a ten. Everybody has the right to vote based on their own personal views. Why bother having a one on the scale. Might as well be rate from 5-10."

I rate every episode a 10 to counter those who rate it 1. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If everyone was realistic in their ratings instead of being ridiculous, I would also rate them realistically instead of being ridiculous.

As it happens, you see flaws everywhere. But you can't possibly see enough to rate an episode as 1. If episodes could realistically be rated 1 by anyone, the show wouldn't have made it to the second season.

I rarely see flaws. Almost never. But even a flawless episode doesn't automatically deserve a 10. If episodes could realistically be rated 10, noone would hate it.

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm calling it like it is.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Vastet

[Darkstream]

55 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Are you still watching? This is an honest question.

Yes, I'm still watching, and I've had to explain why several times. I'm sure people are sick of reading it, and I'm sick of posting it. In fact it's already up page on this thread. 

Another reason, I haven't already stated is, because I want to watch it. I don't need to justify what I watch and for what reason. It's my choice and right. 

ETA: @Crixus a special  to you. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by Darkstream

[Vastet]

Seriously, why would you want to watch something you despise? Wouldn't you rather do something you enjoy? I don't subject myself to entertainment I don't enjoy. I get enough not fun in real life.

[ummester]

I think it's possible to be addicted to something you dislike, like an abuse victim. Are you wasting your time and being a victim - probably, yea, but it's still the individual's choice to be that.

I'm so in the middle with GoTs now - the books and show have both definitely gone downhill after book 3/season 4 but I want to know if it's going to come together and it still hasn't quite jumped the shark, so I watch, cautiously...

One thing I do think, though, is that discussing a show with others, on a forum, is either going to be positively or negatively re-enforcing depending on the overall mindset of the forum. It seems here that opinions are divided, which makes me think that the show has definitely developed issues but is still engaging overall, otherwise it would be more completely positive or negative.

[Darkstream]

41 minutes ago, Vastet said:

"The same can be said for the drones of people rating a show that has a lot of undeniable flaws a ten. Everybody has the right to vote based on their own personal views. Why bother having a one on the scale. Might as well be rate from 5-10."

I rate every episode a 10 to counter those who rate it 1. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If everyone was realistic in their ratings instead of being ridiculous, I would also rate them realistically instead of being ridiculous.

As it happens, you see flaws everywhere. But you can't possibly see enough to rate an episode as 1. If episodes could realistically be rated 1 by anyone, the show wouldn't have made it to the second season.

I rarely see flaws. Almost never. But even a flawless episode doesn't automatically deserve a 10. If episodes could realistically be rated 10, noone would hate it.

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm calling it like it is.

I rate every episode a 10 to counter those who rate it 1. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If everyone was realistic in their ratings instead of being ridiculous, I would also rate them realistically instead of being ridiculous.

You see, this is the problem. Why do you care that someone rates it a one? How does it affect you? Your not being honest with your vote, just as you are accusing other people of doing. Everyone has their own method of rating. I rate the show based on several things. Does the plot make sense? Is their consistency? Do I find the dialogue smart and interesting, Do the characters motivations seem plosible? Is there a theme or message? Do I support that message? Can I feel any emotional connection to the characters? I could go on and on, but the most important is, did I enjoy it? Was I entertained? For me, Got fails on all of these, and several more. That's why I give it a 1. Not because I'm trying to counter other votes. 

As it happens, you see flaws everywhere. But you can't possibly see enough to rate an episode as 1. If episodes could realistically be rated 1 by anyone, the show wouldn't have made it to the second season.

Not true, though I had issues and complaints on the first seasons, it was still a good show. I used to love it. The show has turned its back on everything that made it a success in the first place, and is riding the hype and momentum. It relies on smoke and mirriors to appease the mass following that doesn't care about quality, they just want sex, violence, and cheep shocks. And that's fine, if that's what you enjoy, then you have every right to rate it as high as you want. And let's be honest, if the first season was of the same quality of the fifth season, it would have never seen a second. 

I rarely see flaws. Almost never. But even a flawless episode doesn't automatically deserve a 10. If episodes could realistically be rated 10, noone would hate it.

So why are there so many tens? 

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm calling it like it is.

No, you are, I can assure you that nothing you claim applies to me. And yeah, I'm sure there are some that are as you claim, but it goes for both sides. 

[Darkstream]

36 minutes ago, ummester said:

 

I'm so in the middle with GoTs now - the books and show have both definitely gone downhill after book 3/season 4 but I want to know if it's going to come together and it still hasn't quite jumped the shark, so I watch, cautiously...

See, this is a great example for me. I love the fourth  and fifth books. I think they are fantastic. I know that a lot of people don't share this sentiment, and constantly criticise them. I have no problem admiting that most of that criticism is valid despite my views to the contrary. If other people didn't enjoy those books, it does nothing to prevent me from enjoying them, so why should I care what other people say. I don't ever bash people that say the books are crap, or assert that they are wrong in their opinion. 

[lalunadelmar]

I think season 6 thus far is just awful. The pacing goes too quickly or too slowly at times. There is a lot of inconsistency with characterization (I'm lookin' atchu Sansa) and so much of the plot just feels plain pointless. It feels like D&D are dragging things out by writing bad fanfic off GRRM's books. 

THE GOOD

• Tyrion
  • His scenes are always great. The actor is great and the characterization is spot on. I like the exploration of how he functions as a ruler and leader. 

THE BAD + THE UGLY

• Sansa + Jon Reunion
  • There was no build up to this. Sansa and Jon had no dialogue or interaction before this scene. Nothing about it felt very emotional. It just felt out of the blue. And a lot of the lines Sansa was mumbling felt largely out of character. (Really? She's going to take on Ramsay Bolton even if she doesn't have Jon's help? Please.)
• Dany 
  • She's got a lot of pseudo "bad-ass" moments. She shows no prowess or cunning as a leader. The only thing going for her is her apparent immunity to fire. She can't even control her dragons properly. Also the actress playing her is absolutely horrible. 
• Osha/ Ramsay
  • This was a scene that was clearly thrown in for the cheap violence shock factor. Before violence had some meaning. Now it's just pointless. We get it. Ramsay is a sadistic motherfucker. 

And I get that adaptations are always different but a lot of the changes D&D have made to the source material seem to have no logic behind them and the end result is plot chaos. 

If they can omit Bran for one whole season they could have just omitted Sansa from Season 5 and 6. I much prefer the Arya/Jeyne Poole plot to Sansa's Raped-then-Escaped plot. Then maybe Sansa's character wouldn't jump around so much. 

And for those people shipping Jon and Sansa and saying there are plenty of hints throughout the book series here is some advice...IMPROVE YOUR READING COMPREHENSION. There is absolutely no evidence that Jon and Sansa have feelings for one another or deeply care about each other. 

 

[Crixus]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Yes, I'm still watching, and I've had to explain why several times. I'm sure people are sick of reading it, and I'm sick of posting it. In fact it's already up page on this thread. 

Another reason, I haven't already stated is, because I want to watch it. I don't need to justify what I watch and for what reason. It's my choice and right. 

ETA: @Crixus a special  to you. 

 I know, right? I ranted about this earlier. It's like, I am watching because I want to, and I don't owe anyone any explanation. At all.

LOL. I love the faux curiosity/concern trolling/labelling some people display around here. 

[Vastet]

"You see, this is the problem. Why do you care that someone rates it a one? "

I care because it's bs. So you don't enjoy it, that's fine. But rating it a 1 implies much more than you don't enjoy it. It implies the camera work is shoddy, that the scoring is poor or nonexistant. That the effects are like something from the 1950's. That the makeup and wardrobe is completely out of place. That ALL the acting is wooden and could be better done by kindergarteners. That the sound is off. That the writing is horrible and incapable of tying plots points together. That there is no plot. And a lot more. It's an insult to everyone who works on the show and everyone who enjoys it.

"Not true, though I had issues and complaints on the first seasons, it was still a good show. I used to love it. The show has turned its back on everything that made it a success in the first place, and is riding the hype and momentum. It relies on smoke and mirriors to appease the mass following that doesn't care about quality, they just want sex, violence, and cheep shocks. And that's fine, if that's what you enjoy, then you have every right to rate it as high as you want. And let's be honest, if the first season was of the same quality of the fifth season, it would have never seen a second."

Not true. The fifth season was better than the first. The show hasn't turned its back on anything. Sex and violence are just as prolific now as it was at the start. There are no cheap shocks.

"So why are there so many tens? "

Why are there so many ones?

"No, you are, I can assure you that nothing you claim applies to me. "

I don't believe that for a second.

[Darkstream]

20 hours ago, Vastet said:

"You see, this is the problem. Why do you care that someone rates it a one? "

I care because it's bs. So you don't enjoy it, that's fine. But rating it a 1 implies much more than you don't enjoy it. It implies the camera work is shoddy, that the scoring is poor or nonexistant. That the effects are like something from the 1950's. That the makeup and wardrobe is completely out of place. That ALL the acting is wooden and could be better done by kindergarteners. That the sound is off. That the writing is horrible and incapable of tying plots points together. That there is no plot. And a lot more. It's an insult to everyone who works on the show and everyone who enjoys it.

"Not true, though I had issues and complaints on the first seasons, it was still a good show. I used to love it. The show has turned its back on everything that made it a success in the first place, and is riding the hype and momentum. It relies on smoke and mirriors to appease the mass following that doesn't care about quality, they just want sex, violence, and cheep shocks. And that's fine, if that's what you enjoy, then you have every right to rate it as high as you want. And let's be honest, if the first season was of the same quality of the fifth season, it would have never seen a second."

Not true. The fifth season was better than the first. The show hasn't turned its back on anything. Sex and violence are just as prolific now as it was at the start. There are no cheap shocks.

"So why are there so many tens? "

Why are there so many ones?

"No, you are, I can assure you that nothing you claim applies to me. "

I don't believe that for a second.

Well, I guess this is quite the pointless discussion then. I bid you a good day ser. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Darkstream

[lalunadelmar]

On 5/16/2016 at 11:33 AM, darksellsword said:

GRRM is litterally BEHIND the show as in he hasn't advanced his story to the point where the show has gotten to. You keep suggesting that I have some desired outcome in all of these scenarios I was merely sharing my observation that the way George structured the whole dynamic of Jons relationship with each of the stark children seemed to suggest that he had some plan to do something interesting between Sansa and Jon for me the show confirmed that last night by having Sansa apologise for her past behavior towards Jon that wasn't apparent on the show at least, it is my theory that they are going to use this perceived lack of sibling affection as a foundation for a romantic relationship .It would be a surprise as Jons true parentage hasn't been revealed in the books or the show. I have no idea why you've gone off on some tangent about Arya and Jon and seem to want me to back up your ideas with quotes, it is nosense. If you believe George would have Arya swoop in out of nowhere and want to marry Jon and be Queen of westeros then you really have no insight into how George writes.There are even parallels between Jon and the hound that further strengthen the idea that Sansa will fall in love with Jon, the hound was always a dark figure with a facial disfigurement now Jon is in the same boat, She had feelings for the hound She can have feelings for Jon too.

Where did you learn reading comprehension? There are absolutely no parallels between Jon and the Hound and there certainly aren't any indications in the books that Jon and Sansa will develop a romantic relationship. Furthermore, Jon and Sansa just barely give a shit about each other in the books.

"He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya… he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had… yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with [Arya] now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him." - Jon, AGOT

-

“'Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose.'" (Myranda Royce)

"She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still… with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him." -Sansa. AFFC

And Arya wouldn't "swoop out of nowhere" to be with Jon. I'm not necessarily saying their relationship would be romantic but they certainly have the closest relationship out of all the Stark siblings. They are constantly thinking about one another and contemplating how much they miss one another. 

"He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister'. Arya missed Jon most of all, just saying his name made her sad." -Arya, ASOS

"Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.”  -Arya, AFFC

These two quotes don't even come close to all the times Jon and Arya think about each other. In the books Jon compares Ygritte to Arya and Arya compares Gendry to Jon. Arya doesn't fully commit to her vow as a Faceless Man because she can't give up Needle which most especially represents her connection to Jon. Jon breaks his vows to the Night's Watch when he tries to wage war against the Boltons because he believes Ramsay Bolton holds "Arya" captive. I mean...the books are filled to the brim with references to Jon and Arya's relationship (not to mention that GRRM's original outline planned for an eventual Jon and Arya love story).

I'm sorry but I think it is you, sir, who has "no insight into how George writes". I don't know what books you've been reading to come to the conclusion you have. You may have just been reading some bad Jon/Sansa fanfic online.  

[lalunadelmar]

On 5/16/2016 at 8:59 PM, Joan Jett said:

LMAO. There already are parallels between the Jon/Arya relationship and the Jaime/Cersei relationship though? Both pairs of siblings have the same hair and eye color. Jaime and Cersei are twins and Jon and Arya are the only two who have the stark look. Both Jon and Jaime recieve letters about their sisters in trouble, the pink letter and letter from KL. They also both have injured sword hands (Jon's was burned and Jaime's was but off). Compare these two quotes:

Jon looks at his burned right hand and thinks of mussing Arya's hair. Jaime looks at his stump and thinks of stroking Cersei's hair. 

Wow. That's a great catch. Never even noticed that parallel. 

[House Toad]

37 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Well, I guess this is quite the pointless discussion then. I bid you a good day ser. 

This is our precious don't say anything bad about the precious, we prize our precious, it's the same precious every week and every week it is a 10/10.

I am sorry but the dialogue was appalling, and it was structured for most of this episodes duration using subtitles, of a made up language. But even the Romulans and Klingons spoke in better mannered educated tones despite of their hostilities.

There was dialogue problems concerning; Couches are so medieval High Sparrow. Frey is a house, Littlefinger. The Bastard's letter. Greyworm speech using the word Jew, instead of you, or who knows? Toilets, outhouses, instead of latrine pits? Pycelle says the same thing every episode.

There was clear acting problems in the angry stomping in Meereen and the constant scowling.

There was continuity problems; the Drothraki sea was no where on the horizon, neither was any horses, or any water for their markets. The Meereen throne room was a brothel, when the quarters behind where turned into a whore house. Sansa's make-up changed upon a cup'o'soup, then upon entry into Castle Black. Charcoal turns into Wildfire.

There wasn't a scene that I didn't feel like I wanted it to be over.

Edited May 18, 2016 by House Toad

[Darkstream]

6 minutes ago, House Toad said:

This is our precious don't say anything bad about the precious, we prize our precious, it's the same precious every week and every week it is a 10/10.

I am sorry but the dialogue was appalling, and it was structured for most of this episodes duration using subtitles, of a made up language. But even the Romulans and Klingons spoke in better mannered educated tones despite of their hostilities.

There was dialogue problems concerning; Couches are so medieval High Sparrow. Frey is a house, Littlefinger. The Bastard's letter. Greyworm speech using the word Jew, instead of you, or who knows? Toilets, outhouses, instead of latrine pits? Pycelle says the same thing every episode.

There was clear acting problems in the angry stomping in Meereen and the constant scowling.

There was continuity problems; the Drothraki sea was no where on the horizon, neither was any horses, or any water for their markets. The Meereen throne room was a brothel, when the quarters behind where turned into a whore house. Sansa's make-up changed upon a cup'o'soup, then upon entry into Castle Black.

There wasn't a scene that I didn't feel like I wanted it to be over.

Yup, but I certainly couldn't come up with enough flaws to rate this a 1.
This is only scratching the surface. 

[House Toad]

17 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yup, but I certainly couldn't come up with enough flaws to rate this a 1.
This is only scratching the surface. 

From a show perspective I am painfully trying hard not muddle the two from an unbiased perspective.

Theon getting home, when the bastard is out with his hounds, knowing where Brienne went, and having alliance with the Umbers and Karstarks. The squish squish splat for the added Aggo paintwork, when the crime was committed and reported, it was F that. The bastard knew what Osaha would do, why risk it on even the smallest chancing? Daario and Jorah walking across Sothyros, when Dany took 5 seasons.

Probably a host more, I stayed up to watch the show, but I honestly couldn't because its errors were constant.

Edited May 18, 2016 by House Toad

[ummester]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

I don't ever bash people that say the books are crap, or assert that they are wrong in their opinion. 

Well, the thing with opinions is that they can never be wrong - because they are just opinions. Something presented as fact can be wrong but it is also impossible for any appreciation of art or entertainment to be factual - because beauty is in the eye of the beholder or whatever.

We can argue that financial success is an indicator of quality - but I doubt anyone, even the fans, would suggest there is anything of quality about the Kardashians and yet they are financially successful entertainment. So that isn't even a reliable gauge.

Ultimately, we all have our own opinion on GoTs, which can either be re-enforced or changed by reading the opinion of others. I personally like critical opinion because, if you can defend something against it, it means that something is good - the flipside is it makes flaws more apparent.

For the record, I didn't mind Feast for Crows - I thought the slow paced look at a worn torn Westeros was fine after the War of the 5 Kings - that GRRM was still meandering in Dance, combined with the time it was taking him to write them vs the 1st 3 books, made me think 'he's lost the plot - he doesn't know how to end this'. The last 2 seasons of the show have done nothing to really make me think otherwise - there is a very real possibility that the end for this could be shit and that bothers me after such a great start and middle.

[HellasLEAF]

I give it a solid 7 out of 10.

Some very good moments mixed with meh moments.  

Mostly good though.  Castle black was the highlight for me.