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[Poll] How would you rate episode 604?

How would you rate episode 604?  

523 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      26
    • 2
      16
    • 3
      21
    • 4
      14
    • 5
      21
    • 6
      47
    • 7
      65
    • 8
      111
    • 9
      121
    • 10
      81


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9/10

The first episode in 2 years that seems to have been written by a professional writer. Why couldn't the past 13 episodes have been like this.

I can't think of anything to criticise about this episode. Not only were there no plot holes for once, it even plugged some of the plot holes raised in previous episodes.

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8/10. Clearly the best writing since....forever?

Tyrion and Varys were useful for once. Dany's scene, while really cheesy and unbelievable(reason why I docked a point) still got the job done. Cersei and Jaime finally went back to their conspiratorial selves. High Sparrow and Marge were great.

 

Most importantly, the brother-sister reunions were really well done. Especially Jon-Sansa's reunion. My god, I've been waiting for them to reunite for so long. Or interact in any fashion tbh. I just hope GRRM includes this reunion in some fashion in the books.

 

I just hope they don't dichotomise the roles of Sansa and Jon, i.e., leave Jon to do battles and Sansa for politics. Jon is experienced with dealing with people himself, uniting the Wildlings and majority of the Night's Watch and getting them to coexist. I just hope they don't throw out that development out the window.

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8.  I was close to giving it a 9.  I know I have a lot of negatives below, but the positives outweighed the negatives big time in this episode. 

Positives:

  • Jon & Sansa reunion with WF music was excellent.  I wondered how this would go since she was always very cold to Jon.  I'm glad they addressed this point in the show.
  • Sansa being assertive again
  • The Pink Letter.  I'm glad they finally included this.
  • Tormund / Brienne.  Of course Tormond would want Brienne.  He'll never get her though.
  • Asha telling Theon to get his shit together
  • Brienne coming right out and telling D&M about Stannis' execution.
  • Tyrion finally has some decent dialogue
  • Dany & her fully combined Khalasar.  I thought the scene was pretty epic.  Sure, they used the "Unburned" talent again.  It's really only the second time it's been used to great effect.  She had to get out of that tent somehow.  It could have been Drogon, but then it wouldn't be the strength of Dany that they follow.  It had to be Dany's show of individual strength/talent.  Then, when she does ride her dragon at the head of the Khalasar, they'll do anything for her (i.e. cross the poisoned water). 

Negatives:

  • Jon's pacifism
  • King's Landing.  I'm simply not feeling it this season. 
    • I want Qyburn to say "oh, by the way, there is a vault of wildfire beneath the sept.".  If that happens, things should get more interesting. 
    • I hate to be a book thumper of sorts, but I've never loved Loras' character on the  show.  This is a guy who, IMO, would NEVER break in the books.  He'd never have been taken by the sparrows in the first place; he'd have cut down every last one of them.
    • I love that QoT role has been expanded, but WTF is she doing on the small council?  What's her position?  Did I miss something?  Master of witticisms?
  • Where is Drogon? Where are Viserion & Raegal?
  • The Vale.  Robert has been with Yohn Royce for months.  Now, with one comment from Littlefinger, he's ready to toss Royce through the moon door without blinking? 

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4 hours ago, Joan Jett said:

Ok? There are still parallels,  land plenty more between Jon and Jaime. Also what does Jon mussing Arya's hair have to do with her looking like Lyanna? Idgi.

There are numerous comparisons made in the books of Arya with Lyanna and the thing that binds Arya, Jon and Lyanna is the stark like hair and appearance. I always took most of Jons musing on Arya to be subtle clues as to who his mother is, it could also be an attempt by George to lead the reader into seeing Jon as a new Aegon the conquerer given that Aegon married both of his sisters. I believe that any subtle hint at romanic loving feelings between Jon and Arya that George may or may not have written will ultimately be a red herring. If you examine Jon and Sansas character development you can see how they are almost coming full circle to meet each other as more worthy partners. You could also draw parallels between Jons childhood upbringing and Littlefingers. I could also see Sansa being pregnant and Jon marrying her and raising the baby of his enemy as his own just as Ned did with him.George loves writing history repeating itself. On a different note I'm pretty sure Rickon is that flayed man on the cross in the middle of the battlefield we saw in the season promos.

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The Good

Dany saving herself. So glad she saved herself and she did it in style.

Jon and Sansa meeting up.

Sansa telling it like it is. Everything about Sansa is great in this episode. 

Brienne and Tormund, Brienne confronting Stannis lackeys for doing dark magic

GW and M telling Tyrion what the masters are really like but also playing along with his plan. Tyrion may be wrong here which isn't terrible as it should at least push the plot forward.

The head games of the High Sparrow. His ability to get into the heads of characters is fantastic. I know his parts are kind of boring but his scenes are always fascinating to me. He is the king manipulator and you never really know what his game is. 

The OK

Theon going home. Alfie is fantastic in the role but I just don't care about the Ironborn. Dreary and boring. 

Marg and brother is a solid scene. The show is definitely starting to establish that Marg needs to be in charge. I think her ascent should be solid and this episode lays a lot of groundwork for her. Her future is also a lot less clear compared to Sansa's. 

The bad

Ramsey and the wildlng; She is brought back to be killed in no time. Maybe this has more importance but probably not.

Jon Snow is being reluctant still which makes no sense and is against his character. In the story he has to be reluctant before he gets the pink letter but in the book it is because of his oath. So the show had to invent a sense of reluctance and it doesn't work for me. The only up side is that it gives Sansa a lot of chance to shine.

The bottom line

The episode was kind of boring up until the end. The show could have been the stuff at the wall, Marg in the cell, and Dany saving herself. Everything else was just "connective tissue" that keeps the plot tied together and moving forward. 

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17 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

There are numerous comparisons made in the books of Arya with Lyanna and the thing that binds Arya, Jon and Lyanna is the stark like hair and appearance. I always took most of Jons musing on Arya to be subtle clues as to who his mother is, it could also be an attempt by George to lead the reader into seeing Jon as a new Aegon the conquerer given that Aegon married both of his sisters. I believe that any subtle hint at romanic loving feelings between Jon and Arya that George may or may not have written will ultimately be a red herring. If you examine Jon and Sansas character development you can see how they are almost coming full circle to meet each other as more worthy partners. You could also draw parallels between Jons childhood upbringing and Littlefingers. I could also see Sansa being pregnant and Jon marrying her and raising the baby of his enemy as his own just as Ned did with him.George loves writing history repeating itself. On a different note I'm pretty sure Rickon is that flayed man on the cross in the middle of the battlefield we saw in the season promos.

I know of the connections between Arya and Lyanna. Ned and Bran make it clear that she looks and acts likes her aunt. But Jon mussing Arya's hair has nothing to do with Lyanna. Neither does him calling her "little sister". Those things are just apart of their special connection to each other.

Sansa isn't pregnant and GRRM would never write that because Sansa doesn't marry Ramsay in the books.....unless you think that Jon will marry pregnant Jeyne Poole?

Also lol how can 'subtle' hints be a red herring? Why? Because you don't want it to happen? Do even know the specific quotes and passages in referring to?

Edited by Joan Jett

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I rarely post but read avidly. Many good things in this episode but one of the most exciting thing is the prospect of an army displaying banners showing a White Direwolf... gives me the chills. 

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Just now, Joan Jett said:

I know of the connection between Arya and Lyanna. Ned and Bran make it clear that she looks likes her aunt. But Jon mussing Arya's hair has nothing to do with Lyanna.

Sansa isn't pregnant and GRRM would never write that because Sansa doesn't marry Ramsay in the books.....unless you think that Jon will marry pregnant Jeyne Poole?

Also lol how can 'subtle' hints be a red herring? Why? Because you don't want it to happen? Do even know the specific quotes and passages in referring to?

I don't see George writing Arya marrying Jon , mainly because it wouldn't benefit Aryas character she never wanted to be the wife of a great lord or a king, Sansa on the other hand started out wanting to Marry a Prince She has since been humbled and suffered for being so superficial, it would be a good plot twist to have her Marrying a boy she believed to be so beneath her that turned out to be a legitimate King. George is behind the show now so who knows if Sansa will become pregnant before being reunited with Jon in the books ."lol"  " Do even know the specific quotes and passages in referring to? " I've had enough of your smarmy condescending attitude. You're the one that seems to be too emotionally invested in what you want to happen,

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Fairly tricky one this.

I found parts of it fairly slow, but it finished very well, and many other parts of the episode were very solid as well (Theon, Jon and Sansa, Maegery)

So I voted it a 9 mainly for the end. Can I just say that after nearly 16 years it was nice for Dany to finally do something again, long may it continue!

 

 

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1 hour ago, darksellsword said:

I don't see George writing Arya marrying Jon , mainly because it wouldn't benefit Aryas character she never wanted to be the wife of a great lord or a king, Sansa on the other hand started out wanting to Marry a Prince She has since been humbled and suffered for being so superficial, it would be a good plot twist to have her Marrying a boy she believed to be so beneath her that turned out to be a legitimate King. George is behind the show now so who knows if Sansa will become pregnant before being reunited with Jon in the books ."lol"  " Do even know the specific quotes and passages in referring to? " I've had enough of your smarmy condescending attitude. You're the one that seems to be too emotionally invested in what you want to happen,

GRRM is not behind the show now or ever really. He wrote some episodes in the earlier seasons, but he never had real control over the show. It was D&D who decided to put Sansa in Winterfell, all the way back in 2012. GRRM had nothing to do with it. He didn't even tell D&D the endings of the characters until 2013. 

So you're saying that because Sansa wanted to be Queen in the beginning that she will end up being queen and marrying Jon? Sorry but I doubt GRRM would ever write that, just going off of the themes and messages that already exist in the books. Sansa already has a romance with the Hound going on anyway.  And you're forgetting that now neither Arya or Sansa want to be Queen. You say that Sansa becoming Queen would be a twist, but it really wouldn't. Everyone already expected her to become Queen back in book one. Arya on the other hand would be completely different. Literally no one expects the wild and unladylike tomboy to end up Queen, but it be very much in GRRM's nature to write it.

I'm "the one who is emotionally invested?" Where did that even come from? I never said anything about you being "emotionally invested" so I'm really not sure you're saying that. All I did was disagree with the connections you were making. 

As for the question I asked you, I'm genuinely curious. What "subtle hints" are you talking about? It's doesn't even make sense to say that multiple "subtle hints" are a red herring. Subtle hints are well hidden and not easy to spot. It takes multiple rereads to figure them out and make connections. Red herring hints are not well hidden; they are meant to mislead the reader from the actual clues.

Anyway what red herring quotes were you referring to? Because I have a feeling that you actually don't know any. I think you're just blindly making the assumption that any and all potential Jon/Arya hints are "red herrings" because you want Jon to end up with Sansa instead. 

And there is no Sansa/Jon foreshadowing in the books, nothing subtle or obvious. 

Edited by Joan Jett

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7 hours ago, Stonelands said:


-Dany's ending just didn't do it for me at all. How many times are they going to pull this card where she's confronted with a situation where the odds are totally stacked against her only for it to be resolved with her enemies all being burned alive out of the blue? It just wears thin when it's done too often. I feel like D & D are trying to make us love her and for me it's having the opposite effect.
 

How else was she supposed to get out of that situation? Either Drogon comes and roasts the Dothraki or she pulls off another miracle. How do you think GRRM is going to have her survive the Dothraki horde confronting her? With her wit and incredible leadership? The story set her up for another one of these moments, and thankfully she didn't just have Drogon come and rescue her again, something that happened 5 episodes ago.

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2 hours ago, TheHouseHB said:

Would have given it a 10 if not for the whole Daenerys is immune to fire part. 

In the books, there are two scenes where fire doesn't hurt her too.  So, they're basing that off GRRMs cannon.

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14 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

GRRM is not behind the show now or ever really. He wrote some episodes in the earlier seasons, but he never had real control over the show. It was D&D who decided to put Sansa in Winterfell, all the way back in 2012. GRRM had nothing to do with it. He didn't even tell D&D the endings of the characters until 2013. 

So you're saying that because Sansa wanted to be Queen in the beginning that she will end up being queen and marrying Jon? Sorry but I doubt GRRM would ever write that, just going off of the themes and messages that already exist in the books. Sansa already has a romance with the Hound going on anyway.  And you're forgetting that now neither Arya or Sansa want to be Queen. You say that Sansa becoming Queen would be a twist, but it really wouldn't. Everyone already expected her to become Queen back in book one. Arya on the other hand would be completely different. Literally no one expects the wild and unladylike tomboy to end up Queen, but it be very much in GRRM's nature to write it.

I'm "the one who is emotionally invested?" Where did that even come from? I never said anything about you being "emotionally invested" so I'm really not sure you're saying that. All I did was disagree with the connections you were making. 

As for the question I asked you, I'm genuinely curious. What "subtle hints" are you talking about? It's doesn't even make sense to say that multiple "subtle hints" are a red herring. Subtle hints are well hidden and not easy to spot. It takes multiple rereads to figure them out and make connections. Red herring hints are not well hidden; they are meant to mislead the reader from the actual clues.

Anyway what red herring quotes were you referring to? Because I have a feeling that you actually don't know any. I think you're just blindly making the assumption that any and all potential Jon/Arya hints are "red herrings" because you want Jon to end up with Sansa instead. 

And there is no Sansa/Jon foreshadowing in the books, nothing subtle or obvious. 

GRRM is litterally BEHIND the show as in he hasn't advanced his story to the point where the show has gotten to. You keep suggesting that I have some desired outcome in all of these scenarios I was merely sharing my observation that the way George structured the whole dynamic of Jons relationship with each of the stark children seemed to suggest that he had some plan to do something interesting between Sansa and Jon for me the show confirmed that last night by having Sansa apologise for her past behavior towards Jon that wasn't apparent on the show at least, it is my theory that they are going to use this perceived lack of sibling affection as a foundation for a romantic relationship .It would be a surprise as Jons true parentage hasn't been revealed in the books or the show. I have no idea why you've gone off on some tangent about Arya and Jon and seem to want me to back up your ideas with quotes, it is nosense. If you believe George would have Arya swoop in out of nowhere and want to marry Jon and be Queen of westeros then you really have no insight into how George writes.There are even parallels between Jon and the hound that further strengthen the idea that Sansa will fall in love with Jon, the hound was always a dark figure with a facial disfigurement now Jon is in the same boat, She had feelings for the hound She can have feelings for Jon too.

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12 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

GRRM is litterally BEHIND the show as in he hasn't advanced his story to the point where the show has gotten to. You keep suggesting that I have some desired outcome in all of these scenarios I was merely sharing my observation that the way George structured the whole dynamic of Jons relationship with each of the stark children seemed to suggest that he had some plan to do something interesting between Sansa and Jon for me the show confirmed that last night by having Sansa apologise for her past behavior towards Jon that wasn't apparent on the show at least, it is my theory that they are going to use this perceived lack of sibling affection as a foundation for a romantic relationship .It would be a surprise as Jons true parentage hasn't been revealed in the books or the show. I have no idea why you've gone off on some tangent about Arya and Jon and seem to want me to back up your ideas with quotes, it is nosense. If you believe George would have Arya swoop in out of nowhere and want to marry Jon and be Queen of westeros then you really have no insight into how George writes.There are even parallels between Jon and the hound that further strengthen the idea that Sansa will fall in love with Jon, the hound was always a dark figure with a facial disfigurement now Jon is in the same boat, She had feelings for the hound She can have feelings for Jon too.

Sorry for misinterpreting you, but you still haven answered my question. What red herrings quotes were you referencing? 

Also can you elaborate more on these Jon/Sandor parallels? Facial disfigurement? That's it?

And like I said before, when GRRM writes incestuous relationships it's always with a close sibling bond as the foundations. That's his pattern. I already gave you examples.

You're saying I have no insight and yet you're the one who said that GRRM will write Jon marrying Sansa and raising Ramsay's kid.....OK.

Edited by Joan Jett

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Seeing as, in this thread, you are frowned upon if you don't follow the heard, praising all the ridiculous stuff in this show, blindly ignoring the countless plot holes, character assassinations (by this I mean in show, nothing to do with the book characters), cring-worthy dialoge, and utter stupidity of it all, I won't list all the things I hated about this episode. Most are in denial about any legitimate criticism any way and just ignore it. (kind of how D&D do with all reason and logic) instead, I will only list what I did like. 

1. I thought Sophie and Kit did a good job in the Castle Black yard scene. This was the first time in years that this show was able to illicit any kind of emotional response out of me. It was very touching, and as they didn't say anything, I didn't have D&D's awkward, mind numbing dialogue to break my immersion. 

2. Uhhmm... Uhh... Yeah sorry, that's all I got. 

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Hmm.

Jon and Sansa: 10

Daenerys: 9 

Rest: 6-7 

Episode: average 8 

Jon and Sansa: everything about these two reuniting had me squalling with joy and jumping up and down. The scene they hugged, the chatty scenes, the pink letter. Sansa was amazing and she brought the best out of Jon. 

Daenerys: well that shit was spectacular, and I've been missing Daenerys doing spectacular shit. But. The dialogues about Daenerys being fucked by everyone are more over used than Daenerys would be if she were actually fucked by everyone. We. Get. It. But yay, badass dragon queen can burn the shit out of people even without her dragons. Because she's creative and cool. Now this would have been much more enjoyable if I didn't have all those book theories in the back of my head about how Daenerys is not fire-proof and the birth of the dragons was a one-off thing. Shame on all that shit taking away from the awesomeness of that scene. The other thing that bugged me a little bit is that if Daenerys can totally make this work without Drogon, and the other two dragons have been locked up for two seasons, what's the actual POINT of having dragons? 

Ramsay: Ramsay was good, but why why why why why why why bring back Osha to repeat a scene from a previous season and die? 

Littlefinger: Wasn't that a long ride from the North back to the Vale? Sansa got married and went to wall, Stannis lost, Jon died and returned to life, Theon escaped and sailed to the Iron Islands... All the while, Littlefinger was riding back to the Vale. He is still a manipulator and sweetrobin is still a little bitch. So he sold Sansa to the Boltons so he could go raise the Vale to help Sansa against the Boltons? Okay. 

Meereen: Tyrion was great doing that negotiation, Missendei and Grey Worm were absolutely idiotic and annoying. 

KL: Cersei Jaime Keva and Olenna were good. The High Sparrow bores me to death with his preaching, I want to shoot myself in the head every time he appears in a scene. Margaery and Loras were great. 

Wall: Tormund and Edd were so funny. Like the scene when Brienne confronted Mel and Davos. Davos finally feels something is fishy about Stannis's defeat. But why did he only start asking questions now? 

Jorah and Daario: they are neither funny, nor smart together. But at least Jorah is getting weaker so there are signs of his sickness kicking in.  

was there anything else? Tommen. Tommen was as lame and boring as ever. 

Theon! There was some Theon too. Theon is boring. His sister is annoying. I hate the Greyjoys, book or show. 

Edited by RhaeBee
I forgot the bloody Greyjoys

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