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Queen Unburnt Rises Again...Yes there shall be SPOILERS


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54 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Don't think so. AAR/PTWP/STMTW is one and the same prophecy...just different version based on culture and region. Which is Daeny and you can believe it but resurrection is more likely and Shireeen will pay for Jon's rebirth. She's at Castle Black with Mel and Selyse. It will pretty much play out same in the books like in the show. What show changed is Daeny being fireproof and I mean not even her hair can be burtn.

Nope, Shireen is NOT at castle black in the books. That is one of the reasons that many of us were saying she was a burner.

Read the book carefully and you will note that Mel sends 'a package' to Stannis. You will also note that there are three stakes set out to burn someone.

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5 hours ago, MrTrike said:

The accelerant is the oil/fat in the brazier lights. Don't think that really needs an explanation. in real life the place would've been an inferno in less than a minute. People just don't understand fire unless they've had experience/training. Flashover occurs very quickly where virtually everything ignites at once with temperatures exceeding 1000 degrees fahrenheit, not forgetting the poisonous gases etc.

This! I'm horrified so many people don't understand how braziers work. Education needs more funding!!!

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About the flammable floor, in my understanding, it clearly had something to with Jorah and Daario, Daenerys clearly had a plan and wanted them to play along, which they obviously did. 

As for Daenerys being alone with five khals and winning the day, she is the main character. Harry Potter survived the cemetery with fifty death eaters and Voldemort too. Plus, the Dothraki horselords clearly underestimated her and never thought that she could be dangerous talking or walking or doing anything. 

My problem with this scene was the fire-proof vs non-fireproof debate in the back of my head. 

I have mixed feelings about the lack of Drogon. It's cool that Daenerys could DIY a dragon attack because she's creative and badass like that. But if you can be badass fire queen without dragons, what's the point of the dragons? 

I also liked the mad King vibe and the it was really a long awaited return to the Targaryen roots. 

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4 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

About the flammable floor, in my understanding, it clearly had something to with Jorah and Daario, Daenerys clearly had a plan and wanted them to play along, which they obviously did. 

As for Daenerys being alone with five khals and winning the day, she is the main character. Harry Potter survived the cemetery with fifty death eaters and Voldemort too. Plus, the Dothraki horselords clearly underestimated her and never thought that she could be dangerous talking or walking or doing anything. 

My problem with this scene was the fire-proof vs non-fireproof debate in the back of my head. 

I have mixed feelings about the lack of Drogon. It's cool that Daenerys could DIY a dragon attack because she's creative and badass like that. But if you can be badass fire queen without dragons, what's the point of the dragons? 

I also liked the mad King vibe and the it was really a long awaited return to the Targaryen roots. 

I can see this being her return to Fire&Blood route, not necessarily Mad King Aerys vibe. That look on her face might seem that way but she wasn't aroused by it or anything. Just confident.

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2 hours ago, Mourneblade said:

Additionally Dany speaking up during the meeting and not being struck down, has everything to do with her demeanor, and genetics. Because she is pale skin, and has platinum hair, she holds a certain fascination among the Khals. They see what Drogo saw in her, it is insulting, but amusing at the same time. Cortez took down the entire Aztec nation with 400 men in part do to their superstition and different skin, hair, and eye color. Not only that this woman has conquered all of Slavers bay. She is an enigma to them, especially when she calls them out for their pettiness. 

I think Khal Moro enjoyed her more than he cared to admit. She's beautiful, he said it himself, as well as quite fearless. He threatened her with rape and enslavement several times but she only laughed in his face.  

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17 minutes ago, Orys Lothston said:

Hmm, it appears that Targaryens are immune to smoke inhalation as well as fire...

More like, it appears that Daenerys Targaryen is supernaturally protected from dying on her husband's funeral pyre or in a hut.

I'm not sure what this has to do with other Targaryens.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I can see this being her return to Fire&Blood route, not necessarily Mad King Aerys vibe. That look on her face might seem that way but she wasn't aroused by it or anything. Just confident.

 I don't think she will turn into a mad queen. Never said that. But the fire and the You mad cunt or whatever Moro said to her brought back the good old Targaryen feels. 

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I don't think it's impossible to reconcile Dany's fire resistance in the show with what we've seen in the books.

Before I read GRRM's comments in the oft-quoted interview about Targaryen fire immunity, I had gotten the distinct impression from the books themselves that Danny had some degree of magical resistance to fire, even if she wasn't totally immune. It definitely seemed more than just a higher threshold for heat-induced pain. In Draznak's pit, she was "engulfed" by Drogon's "furnace wind," and she was able to stand unfazed as "Drogon roared full in her face, his breath hot enough to blister skin." (ADWD, Daenerys IX) Later, it seems that she dodged a direct hit by the jet of Drogon's flames, but there's no way she could have dodged the superheated air surrounding it given her proximity to Drogon as she whipped him. Indeed, in that same incident, Dany's hair definitely caught fire. But the kindling point of normal human hair is about 450F, which puts a lower boundary on the sort of temperatures we're talking about here. In making her escape after subduing Drogon, Dany was also able to mount and keep hold of him while he was bleeding from multiple wounds. Recall that she pulled a spear from his back whose point was "half-melted, the iron red-hot, glowing." (ADWD, Daenerys IX). Yet on Dragonstone, as she took stock of the situation, she noted that this tremendous heat exposure had not touched her.

My theory is that even in the books, normal fire in most instances won't be able to reach temperatures that could harm Daenerys -- particularly if she knows it's coming. To be able to melt stone and iron, dragonfire has to reach at least about 2700F. But recall that one of the reasons it's impossible to make Valyrian Steel with conventional metallurgy is that normal furnaces can't reach the temperatures of dragonfire. So dragonfire is likely quite a bit hotter than this. It's possible that Dany could remain vulnerable to a full blast of dragonfire even if she can survive exposures to temperatures on a burning pyre or building (unlikely to exceed about 1100F to 1500F). Maybe this heat resistance is unique to Daenerys specifically and is active at all times. Or maybe it's an innate ability that she can call on in specific circumstances -- a sort of spell that she casts intuitively on herself through sheer will and focus without knowing necessarily that she's performing magic.

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30 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

I think Khal Moro enjoyed her more than he cared to admit. She's beautiful, he said it himself, as well as quite fearless. He threatened her with rape and enslavement several times but she only laughed in his face.  

Yeah there was certainly a fatal fascination there. All of those Khals though were shadows compared to Drogo though. D&D rarely write things on their own that seem reasonable like GRRM does, and yet this whole scene was crafted very well, and within the plausibility of the setting.

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Well, Dany is taking a hell of an advantage of her fire immunity. The "Targaryan are magical demigods" crew are going to become insuferable, aren't they?... :P

It's strange because GRRM said that Khal Drogo's pyre was an one-time thing. I guess D&D thought that having Drogon rescue her would be too easy and predictable.

I think GRRM will go for the Drogon rescue anyways. The Dothraki think that a man is as good as his mount and his ability to ride it. Dany has a dragon, and if she proves that she can ride it, doesn't she prove that she's worthy to conquer the world in the Dothraki' eyes?

6 hours ago, MrTrike said:

The accelerant is the oil/fat in the brazier lights. Don't think that really needs an explanation. in real life the place would've been an inferno in less than a minute. People just don't understand fire unless they've had experience/training. Flashover occurs very quickly where virtually everything ignites at once with temperatures exceeding 1000 degrees fahrenheit, not forgetting the poisonous gases etc.

Well, yes, but you would expect the Dothraki to have some basic knowledge of how their own braziers work too... They basically set a death trap for themselves. By the way, I think I missed who blocked the door... were they Jorah and Dario, or was it somebody else?.

 

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I don't think you can take GRRM's word on anything that may serve as a plot point in the future.

You can't possibly believe that the Khals could have foreseen a girl immune to fire throwing the braziers down and barring the doors in the heart of the biggest Dothraki gathering in years. People were using fire for thousands of years in structures that could ignite in a heart beat. It never stopped them. By your argument, every single one of us has ancestors who were brainless idiots who willingly resided in death traps.

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4 minutes ago, Vastet said:

I don't think you can take GRRM's word on anything that may serve as a plot point in the future.

You can't possibly believe that the Khals could have foreseen a girl immune to fire throwing the braziers down and barring the doors in the heart of the biggest Dothraki gathering in years. People were using fire for thousands of years in structures that could ignite in a heart beat. It never stopped them. By your argument, every single one of us has ancestors who were brainless idiots who willingly resided in death traps.

Khal Whathisname was threatening her with an agonizing death by rape... I think Dany trying to go with a bang and taking them Khals with her was a definite possibility. I mean, would you let a man you are condemning to death penalty take a grenade to the courtroom?

And even under normal circunstances accidents happen... Dany knocked that brazier over with a hand, so it wasn't that difficult to do, somebody could trip, fall on the brazier, knock it over, and done, roasted Khals for dinner.

And yes, people kept fires in wooden-walled and straw-roofed houses, but they tried to keep some safety measures like stone hearths. And I dunno... what exactly was in that brazier? animal fat? oil? wouldn't that burn really too fast and violently to use in that kind of big, bowl-like open brazier?

 

 

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Only the top of whatever accelerant was used would burn. Fire needs oxygen. There's no oxygen in a liquid. You fill a pail with gas and ignite it, it won't all instantly eat up the gas. It will burn for quite awhile.
Please don't actually attempt this. > >

There's also the giant double doors. Now this is the only part I don't get. Everything else makes perfect sense. But who barred the doors and killed the guards, and how did they do it without being seen?

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8 minutes ago, Vastet said:

There's also the giant double doors. Now this is the only part I don't get. Everything else makes perfect sense. But who barred the doors and killed the guards, and how did they do it without being seen?

Jorah and Daario...

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11 minutes ago, Vastet said:

Only the top of whatever accelerant was used would burn. Fire needs oxygen. There's no oxygen in a liquid. You fill a pail with gas and ignite it, it won't all instantly eat up the gas. It will burn for quite awhile.
Please don't actually attempt this. > >

I dunno. Liquid fuel (and any fat-based fuel will melt and become liquid when heated) tend to burn fast, and those brazier offer a wide area of contact between the oil/fat and the air... Most oil lamps/heaters I know about have a narrow neck that allow only a small oil surface to be in contact with air. Or they use wicks.

 

11 minutes ago, Vastet said:

There's also the giant double doors. Now this is the only part I don't get. Everything else makes perfect sense. But who barred the doors and killed the guards, and how did they do it without being seen?

Yes, that's the hardest part to understand... Those were the Khals gathering in their great hall... there should be hundreds of bodyguards, attendants, servants and nosey people watching those doors... how come nobody noticed the main doors being blocked?

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But they were on the opposite end of camp. And they couldn't even convince two random Dothraki they were merchants. I can't see them casually strolling, or even sneaking, up to the doors and taking out the guards. The only people who could have done it were the Dosh Khaleen. But to think they could have disposed of the guards easily and silently is pushing things a little I think. Not impossible I suppose, but a strech nonetheless.

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"I dunno. Liquid fuel (and any fat-based fuel will melt and become liquid when heated) tend to burn fast, and those brazier offer a wide area of contact between the oil/fat and the air... Most oil lamps/heaters I know about have a narrow neck that allow only a small oil surface to be in contact with air. Or they use wicks."

I'm by no means an expert on medieval torches. I can say that if the brazier design is flawed, then Game Of Thrones is only the most recent example of this poor design being used in film. Giant wide braziers can be found in every show and movie which depicts that stage of technology that I've ever seen.

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