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Osha a self-sacrifice as part of the GNC?


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1 minute ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Against it. GNC is absurd and Beinoff and Weiss are smart enough to trim the fat.

Of course GNC is absurd. To execute it they would actually have to be able to execute conspiracies. Let's just feed Ramsay's dogs with Rickon instead, they must've gotten hungry with no great writing for them in past two episodes.

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1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Of course GNC is absurd. To execute it they would actually have to be able to execute conspiracies. Let's just feed Ramsay's dogs with Rickon instead, they must've gotten hungry with no great writing for them in past two episodes.

Ramsay is an evil character, so he should be shown doing evil things. What don't you understand about that? There's a reason why this show is setting Emmy records and Martin is busy releasing Arianne samples...

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2 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Ramsay is an evil character, so he should be shown doing evil things. What don't you understand about that?

Yes, yes, he should also throw poo at stable boys and I really, really hope he sleeps in a pitch-black pajamas because without that we could have trouble understanding he is evil.

Also, he might be evil, but he is not a character. He is a poorly designed plot device targeted to 14-year-olds who feel adult when they see gratuitous violence.

I don't care about Emmys, I care about what I see on-screen. And it's embarrassing. (during the parts involving Ramsay anyway)

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I'm pretty sure D&D are just giving us everything at face value. So likely no GNC in the show.

If there is some sort of GNC in the show then I imagine the kid they gave to Ramsey is not actually Rickon Stark. I mean, the kid certainly didn't seem wild enough and that "direwolf head" looked pretty small. 

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I will admit this situation has me perplexed. I see the Umber to Manderly role play in the way he skirted fealty like the Manderly's did guest right, and the way Umber drops "red wedding" insinuations the way the Manderlys did, as well as provoking the Karstarks. I wonder why they ever bothered keeping Osha if their plan was to turn over Rickon...or should I say Reekon...

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30 minutes ago, Locksley said:

I'm pretty sure D&D are just giving us everything at face value. So likely no GNC in the show.

If there is some sort of GNC in the show then I imagine the kid they gave to Ramsey is not actually Rickon Stark. I mean, the kid certainly didn't seem wild enough and that "direwolf head" looked pretty small. 

That was Art Parkinson. That was obviously Rickon. What don't you understand about that?

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Ramsay is so much more violent and animal-like in the books, I don't understand understand why he bothers people so much in the show. Book Reek gets abused infinitely worse than show-Reek and though the book doesn't describe the torture in real time, Theon's thoughts in the chapters after his transition are more gruesome than what actively happened in the show.

I don't think book Ramsay would ever kill Roose but the show clearly is making Ramsay more calculating and less animalistic. 

Since they decided to leave out Cersei running her brother off, the show kind of needs a villain, and he's now played that role for about 3 seasons. I think it's actually a unique character since most shows don't leave the psychopathic monster alive this long.

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Lot of wishful thinking.

You have one fucking Stark you don't give it to the enemy if you intend to conspire. This northern conspiracy simply does not exist.

There is a good chance that Ramsay flays Rickon before the impeding battle to make his enemies irrationally angry. Good chance that Melisandre volunteers to lead a rescue mission using her magic.

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The whole thing makes no sense.

If the Umbers are truly rebeling against the starks, why in the world would they give Rickon to Ramsay.  SJU knows he killed his father.  I assume he would be smart enough to realize Ramsay is likely to kill Rickon.

So one asks, why Give up your STRONGEST puzzle piece.  If you want to ally with Ramsay, walk up, kneel, kiss his hand and boom you are allies.  What exactly is the point of giving Rickon to him?  It literally accomplishes nothing he could not have done without him.  next we include Osha, who could have been killed off screen and simply mentioned when Rickon was handed over.  Did D&D sign the actress to X episodes and simply still had 2 left on the card for S6?

 

The only Reason i can see them handing over Rickon is if they needed immediate access to WF as trusted men (but again im not so sure kneeling would not have done the same)...  So perhaps there is a reason they had to get Rickon INSIDE the gates?  

 

 

Seriously, is SJU, really scared of 2000 wildlings south of the wall that he would ride to WF, hand over what may or may not be his Leige Lord and ask Ramsay to ride north to fight said 2000 Wildlings?   

 

There has to be something more to the story and knowing how D&D work, they probably needed Rickon in WF, so they had to think of how to get him there.

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12 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

 

This is EXACTLY what I think.  SmallJohn wrote the letter to entice Jon to march on Winterfell, in which SmallJohn will double-cross Ramsey and wind up helping Jon/Sansa.

I'm almost 100% sure the Umbers are double-crossing Ramsey. I refuse to believe that the scene where SmallJon refuses to pledge fealty to the Boltons is a coincidence. SmallJon didn't kneel or pledge fealty because he is still loyal to the Starks.

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2 hours ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Ramsay is so much more violent and animal-like in the books, I don't understand understand why he bothers people so much in the show. Book Reek gets abused infinitely worse than show-Reek and though the book doesn't describe the torture in real time, Theon's thoughts in the chapters after his transition are more gruesome than what actively happened in the show.

I don't think book Ramsay would ever kill Roose but the show clearly is making Ramsay more calculating and less animalistic. 

Since they decided to leave out Cersei running her brother off, the show kind of needs a villain, and he's now played that role for about 3 seasons. I think it's actually a unique character since most shows don't leave the psychopathic monster alive this long.

He bothers people because too much attention is focused on him in the show. In the books he's a side character, he's not the focus of the story, Theon is the focus of the story, Ramsay is just a character in Theon's story. In the show the focus is on Ramsay, and frankly he's too much of a one note character to be the focus and carry a story, there is no character arc with him, no hope of growth, no internal conflict, he's the same character he was when we meet him and he'll be the same character when he is inevitably killed.  

The show's insistence on making him the focus would be annoying enoughas every week we have to have a Ramsay's scene as though he's a main character. But when you add the fact D&D pumps him up with unearned victories to make him more relevant, (Sansa an LF gets a lobotomy to hands the legitimacy of the North and Winterfell to him, 20 good men beats Stannis, Northern Lords knocking each other over to betray the Starks to curry favors with him and hand him Rickon, etc), and it's gets really irritating.

Ramsay is a rabid dog, his role in the story is to bite some of the characters, and eventually getting put down. We don't need the rabid dog to be the star of the story where every week we have to watch him bite another person. The fact that D&D think this is good TV is one of the reason I think they are hacks and don't understand the basic elements of good drama.

 

 

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Just now, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

He bothers people because too much attention is focused on him in the show. In the books he's a side character, he's not the focus of the story, Theon is the focus of the story, Ramsay is just a character in Theon's story. In the show the focus is on Ramsay, and frankly he's too much of a one note character to be the focus and carry a story, there is no character arc with him, no hope of growth, no internal conflict, he's the same character he was when we meet him and he'll be the same character when he is inevitably killed.  

That along would be annoying enough and every week we have to have a Ramsay's scene as though he's a main character. But when you add the fact D&D pumps him up with unearned victories to make her more relevant, (Sansa an LF gets a lobotomy to hands the legitimacy of the North and Winterfell to him, 20 good men beats Stannis, Northern Lords knocking each other over to betray the Starks to curry favors with him and hand him Rickon, etc), and it's gets really irritating.

Ramsay is a rabid dog, his role in the story is to bite some of the characters, and eventually getting put down. We don't need the rabid dog to be the star of the story where every week we have to watch him bite another person. The fact that D&D think this is good TV is one of the reason I think they are hacks and don't understand the basic elements of good drama.

 

 

That's fair and from a book vs show perspective I definitely see the argument. Separating the two though, a savage character like Ramsay who manages to last this long though is a unique character and one that is rarely kept alive to this point. I was really annoyed the battle with Stannis went the way it did (whole 5th season as a result felt like a waste), but story-telling wise it was different and unexpected.

IDK, I think his lack of arc is actually kind of interesting. He really is just a rabid dog and won't change for anything. His "girl" dies and he's confused why she's not fed as meat to the dogs. He kills the one person who thought they could control him. I'm sure people are terrified of him. He's the guy who knocked the iron born out of the North and killed Stannis Baratheon. A brutal guy with his military record on paper is someone who I'm sure the rest of the North fears in some way or another. Throw in the "she paid their taxes" bit and yeah. 

With the lack of inner-narrator and lack of visible damage to Theon's body (seriously, book Reek is 10x worse off than show Theon), I don't think that perspective would've been as interesting. And the one super awful scene with him, viewers turned into a thinkpiece on rape despite it being less violent and more emotionally pulling than its book counterpart.

I'm in the minority, but his lack of "depth" doesn't really bother me. I think had he changed a bit, it would've been an unoriginal trope. 

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I don't know what to believe about the GNC. Obviously I would love for it to happen, so it probably won't.

What I can't wrap my head around is why SJU would turn Rickon over to Ramsay? What is the point? What's the motivation? Presumably he's been with the Umbers for a good while, ever since he and Osha left Bran and Co. The Starks didn't commit any great offense against the Umbers, and they don't love Ramsay at all, so why?

The only possible answer I have is that it's because the wildlings are south of the wall. So...Ned Stark's bastard lets the wildlings through, and the Umber response is to turn over a woman and a child to a known psychopath that they clearly despise? Rickon and Osha didn't know what Jon was doing. And isn't Rickon their liege lord? For some reason I believed the Umbers to be more honorable than that.

Yes, I'm aware how naive it all sounds. It just gives me a glimmer of hope that it is a double cross.

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And here's the other thing that makes my brain hurt. It's been 5 episodes since Hardhome. No one in Westeros has been alerted that the WW are on the move? Thousands of wildlings show up and neither the Umbers nor anyone else send a rider to the Wall to say "hey, what the fudge, why aren't you doing your job?" To which the obvious response would be "yeah, we've got bigger probs and so do you. Besides, we told everyone that we needed more men. Try listening sometime." Please. There are no secrets in the Seven Kingdoms, but an army of the undead is on the eternal down low. Maybe if they knew what was actually going on, they wouldn't be handing over women and children to homicidal monsters.

Ugh I need sleep.

 

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If the Umbers were part of the GNC, or if a GNC really existed, they wouldn't need to bring the real Rickon. Any teenager with similar features would have been ok, since Ramsay didn't know Rickon that well anyway, and there's no one left in WF that does.

Also, they could have murdered Ramsay just like he did with his father. Kill him, and House Bolton is done. Leave the castle quick and let them find the body while you are safely away.

What? Unlikely? Not any more than nobody objecting to Roose's demise, or Walda's slaughter.

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It makes no narrative sense for the Umbers suddenly to betray the Starks,  None.  Their loyalty has been foreshadowed, as has the GNC ('The North remembers').  Remember that Ramsay kills Osha because of what Theon told him.  When SmallJon handed Osha and Rickon over, he would not have known what Theon told Ramsay. I think the killing of Osha was not expected - she was sent there as an assassin. 

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10 hours ago, Locksley said:

I'm pretty sure D&D are just giving us everything at face value. So likely no GNC in the show.

If there is some sort of GNC in the show then I imagine the kid they gave to Ramsey is not actually Rickon Stark. I mean, the kid certainly didn't seem wild enough and that "direwolf head" looked pretty small. 

How can anyone think that was not Rickon, since it's Art Parkinson, the actor who played Rickon before? No, it's Rickon, there's no hidden meaning in anything the Smalljon said, and he won't turn on Ramsay. The Boltons will have the (much) larger army, Jon & co will come very close to being defeated until LF swoops in, LotR style to save the day. And I have zero doubts Rickon will die at some point somehow. 

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7 minutes ago, Juggzy said:

It makes no narrative sense for the Umbers suddenly to betray the Starks,  None.  Their loyalty has been foreshadowed, as has the GNC ('The North remembers').  Remember that Ramsay kills Osha because of what Theon told him.  When SmallJon handed Osha and Rickon over, he would not have known what Theon told Ramsay. I think the killing of Osha was not expected - she was sent there as an assassin. 

No, I disagree. It makes even less sense for the Umbers to hand over Rickon, the last male Stark heir (as far as they know), to Ramsay if they were planning on double crossing the Boltons. Zero sense. The Umbers handing over Rickon is one of those situations the show creates often (lazy writing, poor plotting) where either alternative makes no sense whatsoever. 

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