Narratively speaking, we are still in book 4/5

[Good Guy Garlan]

11 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

I think a big problem was that D&D wrote S5 assuming it would be the third to last season. But then HBO demanded S8. So now D&D are putting back in some of what they cut out (Riverlands and Ironborn). These plots lines were probably just going to be skipped on a 7 seven season timeline.

I do think it was a huge mistake to choose Dorne to replace Jamie's Riverlands story. I get the impulse to converge those plots, but it was so poorly executed that it was a waste of effort.

That makes sense. HBO pushing for more story can't be a good thing, in my opinion. 

[Primalsplit]

Seasons always start slow. This is not really an indication of anything for this season yet. So far, we've also had some things happening so far. jon resurrected, Ramsay coup'd Roose, Sand Snackers coup'd Martells, Dany coup'd Dothraki, Euron coup'd Balon, littlefinger re-coup'd the Vale, Alliser coup'd Night's watch but has gotten his ass coup'd back by Jon, Cersei is accumulating some kind of power with Tyrells, Tyrion is trying to identify and solve problems in Slaver's Bay. It seems as if it's it's all building up to this point and for good reason too.

I don't like the show much, but sometimes we critics go way overboard with things. It's half true at some points we are still in book 4/5, but at some things we are in TWoW or just in original show content.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

This is what I have been thinking all along...we are still well within book material.  If D&D are correct that we are reaching the show endgame, then TWOW will be bloated with tertiary character POV chapters (like Barristan, Victarion, Arianne) and in the book we won't see our main characters and their plots move as much.

Think of how we only saw 3 chapters of Sansa in 10+ years.  Only 3 chapters of Bran.  Or only 2 King's Landing chapters in ADWD, if my memory serves.

[sj4iy]

Sorry, OP, I disagree entirely.  Only two storylines are still book material, the rest have surpassed it.  So I don't see how this argument can really be made at this point.

[JagLover]

23 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

This is what I have been thinking all along...we are still well within book material.  If D&D are correct that we are reaching the show endgame, then TWOW will be bloated with tertiary character POV chapters (like Barristan, Victarion, Arianne) and in the book we won't see our main characters and their plots move as much.

Think of how we only saw 3 chapters of Sansa in 10+ years.  Only 3 chapters of Bran.  Or only 2 King's Landing chapters in ADWD, if my memory serves.

TWOW will be a continuation of the AFFC/ADWD pace IMO, and filled with the resolution of plot arcs introduced in those books.

It would not surprise me if we have now reached the end, or near the end, of Dany's TWOW storyline.

 

 

[sifth]

16 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

They were saying that last year too. And the year before...

 

Yea, I wouldn't be shocked if GRRM has less than after of that book completed yet. The man just doesn't have the heart for finishing the series these days.

[JagLover]

On 16/05/2016 at 5:01 PM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

As hard as that is to believe, when you really think about it,we are still in Book4/5 territory for the most partand have not really entered TWOW storyline wise, think about.

Jon Snow/The Wall: Yes he's come back from the dead, but narrative wise, he's just starting Stannis' plot in ADWD, he and Davos and Sansa will visit the various Northern Lords, rally them, and march on WF.

Dany/Essos:  Same as Jon, Dany's own story might be beyond the end of ADWD, but they are retreading the Meeren storyline with Tyrion playing the role of Dany, we still are going to have some kind of confrontation with the slavers which has yet to happen, so we are still mostly in the period between the end of ADWD and the beginning of TWOW.

KL: Nothing has happened in KL plotwise at all this season, it's in a holding pattern since Cersei's walk, Kevan hasn't even died yet, so we aren't even at the end ADWD

Jaime.: he hasn't even gone to the RL yets, so for him he's still pre AFFC

Sam: has yet to arrive in Oldtown, so still in AFFC

Arya: still in ADWD with her training.

Bran: still training so still in ADWD, this might change next week.

Iron Islands: pre-kingsmoot, so still AFFC.

Sansa: she is the only one who's jumped forward. Mainly because D&D decided to skip the Vale, just like they decided to skip mosts of Dorne.

I would say other than Sansa, and small bits and pieces of Dany/Jon, most of the narrative so far is still taking place before the end the ADWD.

 

 

There isnt much left to do of Stannis's AFFC/ADWD storyline. Deepwood mote is already liberated and his army have already got stuck in the snow. Anything after that is TWOW sample chapters.

Yes I would agree with Tyrion we are going to get the battle of fire. But again that actual battle is in TWOW.

KL's landing you are talking about a very narrow window between the walk of shame and Kevan's murder.

I think they have already used some of Arya's ADWD material (the merchant she was supposed to kill)

I think you are judging the season too early and also misjudging exactly how much material is in TWOW. Once you take out Faegon, Arianne (and Dorne in general) and other padding how much will be left?, we could be through 2/3s of it or so by the end of the season. 

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

7 minutes ago, JagLover said:

There isnt much left to do of Stannis's AFFC/ADWD storyline. Deepwood mote is already liberated and his army have already got stuck in the snow. Anything after that is TWOW sample chapters.

Yes I would agree with Tyrion we are going to get the battle of fire. But again that actual battle is in TWOW.

KL's landing you are talking about a very narrow window between the walk of shame and Kevan's murder.

I think they have already used some of Arya's ADWD material (the merchant she was supposed to kill)

I think you are judging the season too early and also misjudging exactly how much material is in TWOW. Once you take out Faegon, Arianne (and Dorne in general) and other padding how much will be left?, we could be through 2/3s of it or so by the end of the season. 

 

I wasn't talking about the end o the season, I was talking about as of the 4th episode of season 6.

Yes, I expect by the end of the season we will have largely moved beyond the books.  But as of right now we have not.

[Lord Lannister]

There's a simple criteria of if we're beyond the books or not. Do you know what's going to happen next episode? If the answer is no, then yes we're beyond the books.

[aceluby]

Kind of have to agree.  Winter STILL isn't here yet....

What kinds of 'Winds of Winter' would there be without actual winter?

[RoamingRonin]

9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

There's a simple criteria of if we're beyond the books or not. Do you know what's going to happen next episode? If the answer is no, then yes we're beyond the books.

Not entirely true.

Who expected the Pink Letter to come after Jon's resurrection? Ser Kevan and Pycelle are still alive. The dragons are still in the pits -- so does that mean someone will play Quentyn's role or no? The Kingsmoot is next episode. Will Yara and/or Theon go to Slaver's Bay? Sam hasn't reached Oldtown or Hornhill. 

The story is jumping between AFFC, ADWD and TWOW. 

[Sanik Lannister]

Fact. I just said the same thing to my friend who only watches the show. The Mother Mercy was straight from WoW, or ADOD, depending on if you consider it left on the cutting room floor from book 5.

[Sanik Lannister]

2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Not entirely true.

Who expected the Pink Letter to come after Jon's resurrection? Ser Kevan and Pycelle are still alive. The dragons are still in the pits -- so does that mean someone will play Quentyn's role or no? The Kingsmoot is next episode. Will Yara and/or Theon go to Slaver's Bay? Sam hasn't reached Oldtown or Hornhill. 

The story is jumping between AFFC, ADWD and TWOW. 

Fact. I just told my friend who only watches the show that today. I was surprised to see the Mother Mercy scene this season.

[sandpiper]

On 16/05/2016 at 5:01 PM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

As hard as that is to believe, when you really think about it,we are still in Book4/5 territory for the most partand have not really entered TWOW storyline wise, think about.

 

yes, i agree.I have several times said that I see no reason to think the series is departing from the books in any material way, and we still have (had) much material from the books not used before series 6. I dont know if any of that is affected by decisions on how long they want the series to run, but I suspect it is simply rearranging events so they make more sense in 10 episode series. It is not even impossible that young Aegon might yet make an appearance.

Having seen this, it strikes me now that the end of this year would be a much more sensible time to publish the next book than last year would have been. this series is moving into next book territory and a publication between this series and 7 might be ideal with regard to each sharing some revelations from it. Having seen some of series six, I think publishing the book last year would have been very bad timing for the series, so I am left wondering whether Martin isnt having a game with readers over publication dates and never intended at all to publish last year.

I notice he has now published an advance  chapter about the Aegon invasion. If he does not appear in the show this will reveal nothing about that, and most people think it is not a spoiler for the show. It reminds readers there is extra material to be had from buying the book.  On the other hand if Aegon suddenly appears in this series, it will be a clever piece of publicity for the book which grabbed all our attention without harming the show at all. I think they are heavily cooperating in timing and what is said to the press.

On 17/05/2016 at 2:17 AM, Desert Fox said:

I think a big problem was that D&D wrote S5 assuming it would be the third to last season. But then HBO demanded S8. So now D&D are putting back in some of what they cut out (Riverlands and Ironborn). These plots lines were probably just going to be skipped on a 7 seven season timeline.

This is possible since they have been havering over how many series to have, and especially when they announced they have enough material for 1.5 more series, However, they are very determined at keeping the audience guessing and this may simply be more. IThe way TV is funded means it is impossible to guarantee length of run, but it is possible everything is going pretty much as planned before filming even began. What has happened as have gone along is that budgets have increased, so maybe more extras, different locations, more effects. There could have been economies that way to keep the story going to its end.

 

On 16/05/2016 at 11:27 PM, Minuteman said:

Dany's plot is quite a bit more advanced. She has become Kahl(eesi) of Khals which if aDwD is any measure would take Martin 500 pages to get to. It looks like the Faith and the Tyrells will be coming to a head which is well beyond the books. Sam is behind the books as is the Ironborn which will have to be severely truncated (I think it likely Euron will send Asha and Theon to get Dany and that journey will be fairly uneventful). One of the annoying plot holes is "Ser Gregor" vice Robert Strong. The directors seem to have forgotten that they had Gregor's skull delivered to the Martells which is why Robert Strong was created in the books to hide the ruse. Skipping it is irritating and stupid. But this isn't a rant thread so I digress. I do believe the season ends with Jon and Sansa in Winterfell, Ramsy dead and the Boltons defeated, the Wall being destroyed, Cersei fleeing KL for Casterly Rock with Tommens death, and Dany landing in Dorne. Arya will probably be sent to kill Walder Frey (look at the reaction of the waif when Arya mentions Walder Frey on her list) which gets her back to Westeros. By Martins present measure that would be about 5000 pages of text.

I think Martin said he intended to have two major battles in the last book, but ran out of pages. So putting them back where they belong might meet with his approval presentation wise. This was originally a trilogy, with all the material originally intended for the last book still to be revealed...presumably plus growth on the same scale as with the first two parts!

I agree with others that the way the books covered material was very difficult to film because of concentrating on certain chracters at a time, and the series pretty much had to even out their screentime. Thus Tyrion and Varys have been advanced into Meereen. But while Dany left early, we are still only now shaping up for a big battle which was imminent in the book. And only six episodes in which to do it! It could still overspill into series 7! This year there will be a big battle for winterfell, which presumably will leave Jon in a good position in the north.. until the WW turn up. I doubt Kings Landing will be abandoned until Dany arrives to claim it.

 

 

 

[Maid So Fair]

On 17 May 2016 at 2:30 AM, Good Guy Garlan said:

That makes sense. HBO pushing for more story can't be a good thing, in my opinion. 

This is just silly. Every other show would be over the moon with getting extra screen time. GOT has a lot more characters to work with than an average show, a complex plot that is not confined to one location and plot line and has continuously suffered from a lack of character development and peoples action being unmotivated. Extra time would be the perfect opportunity to rectify this. Instead, we got a bunch of filler with a few cheap shocking moments thrown in, which just shows that the writers on GOT don't know what to do with their characters without GRRM's blueprint to guide hem every step of the way. Script continues to be the weakest part of GOT production. 

The plot has moved at a snail pace since S4 and now we are in S6 and most of it is still AFFC/ADWD material. 

[RedShirt47]

16 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

There's a simple criteria of if we're beyond the books or not. Do you know what's going to happen next episode? If the answer is no, then yes we're beyond the books.

This.

And the only book material we can draw from is The Iron Islands. We can be fairly sure that Euron will turn up and win the King's Moot. We can be fairly sure that he will send Yara to Mereen.

I imagine the Riverlands story will play out quite differently to the books. There will be some details that we can infer from book knowledge. Septon Meribald / The Quiet Isle and a likely return for The Hound. Maybe a siege of Riverrun.

Everything else is pretty much past the book material.

[protar]

On 16/05/2016 at 10:58 PM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

While I wish they would have cut out more stuff I dont think this is circling around to get more book material. It seems like there are a number of key plot events that pretty much have to happen and they are finding a way of doing that in a different format 

I think you overestimate how much this was planned. It seems to me that they thought they were only getting 7 seasons, wrote accordingly, but now we're getting at least 8 (even if they're of shorter length) so they're backtreading. If D+D actually planned things out rather than blatantly making things up on the fly with each season we'd probably have a much more coherent adaptation.

[sandpiper]

3 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

 Instead, we got a bunch of filler with a few cheap shocking moments thrown in, which just shows that the writers on GOT don't know what to do with their characters without GRRM's blueprint to guide hem every step of the way. Script continues to be the weakest part of GOT production. 

The plot has moved at a snail pace since S4 and now we are in S6 and most of it is still AFFC/ADWD material. 

Of course it is! this is a faithfull rendition of the books. Martin insisted on that. Including the ones yet to be published.

[Good Guy Garlan]

4 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

This is just silly. Every other show would be over the moon with getting extra screen time. GOT has a lot more characters to work with than an average show, a complex plot that is not confined to one location and plot line and has continuously suffered from a lack of character development and peoples action being unmotivated. Extra time would be the perfect opportunity to rectify this. Instead, we got a bunch of filler with a few cheap shocking moments thrown in, which just shows that the writers on GOT don't know what to do with their characters without GRRM's blueprint to guide hem every step of the way. Script continues to be the weakest part of GOT production. 

The plot has moved at a snail pace since S4 and now we are in S6 and most of it is still AFFC/ADWD material. 

More seasons equals more filler and more plot moving at a snail pace, that's pretty much a fact. Look at season 3's glacial pace, precisely because they split up Storm in two. Look at Feast and Dance, chock full of filler and stagnant plot. 

I'd rather have quality over quantity and a concise series instead of some dragged out cashgrab. 

[The Arthur Smith]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 9:17 PM, Desert Fox said:

I think a big problem was that D&D wrote S5 assuming it would be the third to last season. But then HBO demanded S8. So now D&D are putting back in some of what they cut out (Riverlands and Ironborn). These plots lines were probably just going to be skipped on a 7 seven season timeline.

I do think it was a huge mistake to choose Dorne to replace Jamie's Riverlands story. I get the impulse to converge those plots, but it was so poorly executed that it was a waste of effort.

 

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 8:58 PM, Good Guy Garlan said:

The way I see it, the problem is that D&D should've adapted the Jaime/Brienne/Iron Islands storylines sooner, to get Feast/Dance out of the way and focus on the endgame. But I think they were a little too eager to get it over with, so they sent Jaime to Dorne and Brienne to the north, but now they're gonna have to circle back again to the Riverlands anyway. They should've bit the bullet of Feast/Dance instead of jumping the gun altogether. 

The thing with Dorne is that D&D never intended to adapt their storyline considering they omitted Jaime. But Bryan Cogman is the one who suggested Jaime going to Dorne. So pretty much the Dorne plot was thought out too late than the rest whose story was planned very early on.