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Narratively speaking, we are still in book 4/5


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4 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

More seasons equals more filler and more plot moving at a snail pace, that's pretty much a fact. Look at season 3's glacial pace, precisely because they split up Storm in two. Look at Feast and Dance, chock full of filler and stagnant plot. 

I'd rather have quality over quantity and a concise series instead of some dragged out cashgrab. 

In the hands of the current show writers? Sure. But there's no reason extra material should be boring, especially in a show that has eviscerated several major charcaters' arcs, has plenty of interesting side characters that have seen even less development and plenty of other material. They could even (gasp!) come up with their own stuff like most other shows on TV do. Hell, you could argue that coming up with interesting scripts is a TV writer's actual job. 

The fact they twist every season into pretzels with little consideration for character arcs, logic or natural plot progression to make space for spectacle of episode 9 epic moment is one of the shows'  long standing. That's the reason they split it up. And when it looked that at least they would cut the more boring bits out, they circled back on them. If AFFC/ADWD are so stagnant and full of filler, why are we onto the third season that is STILL covering them? And even we accept thatthe last two books are boring, how does that make it ok for the show to be the same?

I'd love to get quality over quantity as well. That's not what we're getting. 

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15 hours ago, WinterPool Stark said:

I think the more important (and depressing) thing to come out of this thread is that TWOW will be moving veeerrryy sloooww without a lot of 'new' material. You can already guess what TWOW will be made up of

I think you can for the most part.

Even what we know and think will be in there, Aegon, Arianne, battles of fire and ice, Dany taking control of the Dothraki, Brienne and Jamie, is a book in its own right. Return to all the other characters to give them a few chapters to progress their various plot lines and you have a typical ASOIAF doorstopper. 

Does that sound like the penultimate book though?, as it doesn't to me. 

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On 5/17/2016 at 1:17 AM, Desert Fox said:

I think a big problem was that D&D wrote S5 assuming it would be the third to last season. But then HBO demanded S8. So now D&D are putting back in some of what they cut out (Riverlands and Ironborn). These plots lines were probably just going to be skipped on a 7 seven season timeline.

I do think it was a huge mistake to choose Dorne to replace Jamie's Riverlands story. I get the impulse to converge those plots, but it was so poorly executed that it was a waste of effort.

I think part of the problem was they were writing blind for 4/5 seasons.  Then GRRM told them his master plan and suddenly they couldn't cut the Ironborn but needed to get rid of Rickon etc etc.  Well this was my theory, now I am not so sure.  

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23 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

In the hands of the current show writers? Sure. But there's no reason extra material should be boring, especially in a show that has eviscerated several major charcaters' arcs, has plenty of interesting side characters that have seen even less development and plenty of other material. They could even (gasp!) come up with their own stuff like most other shows on TV do. Hell, you could argue that coming up with interesting scripts is a TV writer's actual job. 

The fact they twist every season into pretzels with little consideration for character arcs, logic or natural plot progression to make space for spectacle of episode 9 epic moment is one of the shows'  long standing. That's the reason they split it up. And when it looked that at least they would cut the more boring bits out, they circled back on them. If AFFC/ADWD are so stagnant and full of filler, why are we onto the third season that is STILL covering them? And even we accept thatthe last two books are boring, how does that make it ok for the show to be the same?

I'd love to get quality over quantity as well. That's not what we're getting. 

I don't think even competent showrunners/writers could make a compelling season out of Feast and Dance, let alone two or more. I mean, we saw how season 5 turned out. It was the worst ranked season so far in all the Unsullied forums I know. And granted, D&D messed up horribly with some stuff (Sansa in Winterfell, Dorne, Stannis' Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day, etc), but as a whole, the bulk of the season was still about 95% Feast and Dance. Hell, it was the streamlined version of Feast and Dance, "This Time With Less Boring Chapters of Tyrion Mansplaining Volanteene History, Jon Counting Meats and Dany Nibbling On Figs!" It even had Hardhome as a bonus, and the resolution to the Stannis' storyline that the book lacked. It had Tyrion meeting Dany. And it still felt like the plot wasn't moving. It felt agonizingly slow, on top of all the D&D added suckiness. Could it have been better? Definitely, of course, but my point is that Feast and Dance together, in the hands of competent showrunners, would make for a serviceable season (and only one), at best. Why? Simply because Feast and Dance are divisive books with no ending. Ideally, a good season would need to adapt Feast + Dance + the first part of Winds, at least, to provide the resolutions to the myriad cliffhangers. 

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31 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I don't think even competent showrunners/writers could make a compelling season out of Feast and Dance, let alone two or more. I mean, we saw how season 5 turned out. It was the worst ranked season so far in all the Unsullied forums I know. And granted, D&D messed up horribly with some stuff (Sansa in Winterfell, Dorne, Stannis' Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day, etc), but as a whole, the bulk of the season was still about 95% Feast and Dance. Hell, it was the streamlined version of Feast and Dance, "This Time With Less Boring Chapters of Tyrion Mansplaining Volanteene History, Jon Counting Meats and Dany Nibbling On Figs!" It even had Hardhome as a bonus, and the resolution to the Stannis' storyline that the book lacked. It had Tyrion meeting Dany. And it still felt like the plot wasn't moving. It felt agonizingly slow, on top of all the D&D added suckiness. Could it have been better? Definitely, of course, but my point is that Feast and Dance together, in the hands of competent showrunners, would make for a serviceable season (and only one), at best. Why? Simply because Feast and Dance are divisive books with no ending. Ideally, a good season would need to adapt Feast + Dance + the first part of Winds, at least, to provide the resolutions to the myriad cliffhangers. 

More content =/= more Feast and Dance content. This is a fallacy. In fact, this is what I am obviously the OP find so baffling - with plenty of unresolved storylines with epic potential, we are still wearing through the less interesting bits of AFFC and ADWD with even more immaterial scenes thrown in. The show runners know the ending and there are so many unresolved storylines that some people wonder whether GRRM will be able to pull off a satisfying ending.

There's no rule that says that GOT has to stick to the published material alone. We still have to get Dany to Westeros, resolve the White Walker issues and hopefully reclaim the North for the Starks. There's seasons of build up for the Lannister fall from grace, undoing of LF's schemes and Arya and Bran (and Sansa?) putting their training to good use. We still haven't  seen anybody use a dragon in battle, and only have one rider. Who sits the IT in the end (if anyone)? If the show writers can't take these storylines and create a compelling story for an extra couple of episodes worth of content then they should have never got their job. Especially if you consider that it looks increasingly likely that two slow seaons will be followed by a very rushed closing season (+ 3 episodes).

I'm glad  they cut Faegon and Tyrions travels. I was overjoyed to hear we would be getting no IB, but it's just been postponed. Same with RL. Somehow, they managed to turn the Dornish plot MORE boring and irrelevant while cutting all the remotely good bits. All the while, bafflingly, erasing all the character drama from Jon and Dany's arcs, and replacing the best part of the last two books, the Northern plotline, with more Sansa abuse. I just don't get it.

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On 5/17/2016 at 7:52 PM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Jaime has become an extra this season, or a parrot, he regurgitates everything Cersei says.

 

I completely agree.  The loss of his character development has really been disappointing.  I get that they didn't want to adapt the Riverlands stuff, but still.  He's supposed to be on an upward trajectory of self-awareness, such that we actually care about him as a person.  Now he's just the same smug jerk he was in the beginning.

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4 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

First of all, this post has absolutely nothing to do with topic. Second of all, you clearly don't understand the difference between fan fiction and adaptation.

D&D are just repeating some of the same plot points because they forgot it last season. Like the Northern lords are only important to the Boltons after Stannis has been defeated because they suddenly remembered that the Lannisters exist. It's clearly meant to be post-book territory apart from some like the Ironborn because they forgot about them for several seasons.

And how is GoT more similar to an adaptation than a fan fiction? At least fan fiction authors sometimes respect the characterisations of the original story, and if not, give their characters consistent personalities. A lot of the stuff they want to move onto in the show hasn't actually happened yet, so quite frankly there's nothing to adapt.

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2 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

D&D are just repeating some of the same plot points because they forgot it last season. Like the Northern lords are only important to the Boltons after Stannis has been defeated because they suddenly remembered that the Lannisters exist. It's clearly meant to be post-book territory apart from some like the Ironborn because they forgot about them for several seasons.

The Boltons didn't need any of the Northern lords assistance to defeat Stannis. But against a well provisioned Lannister army, they will need a united North to stand against them.

 

3 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

And how is GoT more similar to an adaptation than a fan fiction? At least fan fiction authors sometimes respect the characterisations of the original story, and if not, give their characters consistent personalities. A lot of the stuff they want to move onto in the show hasn't actually happened yet, so quite frankly there's nothing to adapt.

The difference between an adaptation and fan fiction is rather simple. An adaptation is a licensed work and is created with the author's consent. Fan fiction is work that is created without the author's consent. Martin gave his permission for GOT to be made, therefore, it's an adaptation, not fan fiction.

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Just now, Dragon in the North said:

The Boltons didn't need any of the Northern lords assistance to defeat Stannis. But against a well provisioned Lannister army, they will need a united North to stand against them.

 

The difference between an adaptation and fan fiction is rather simple. An adaptation is a licensed work and is created with the author's consent. Fan fiction is work that is created without the author's consent. Martin gave his permission for GOT to be made, therefore, it's an adaptation, not fan fiction.

Yep. That Lannister invasion that everyone in King's Landing has mentioned in the small council meetings when Pycelle was farting and Olenna is somehow officially on the small council. The Tyrells just remembered that their armies exist after their heir being imprisoned for episodes whilst not using their armies to deal with any other threat to the realm, so I don't expect the armies to be quick. Plus, Cersei is such a nice and sympathetic person in the show that I'd expect her to forgive Sansa for kingslaying. And yep, the Boltons had a brilliant plan last season by legitimising their claim to the North by marrying a wanted criminal, they're just remembering how stupid the Sansa Marriage Strike is now for some reason. I'm sure they can just use some of that kerosene they used to destroy all of Stannis' siege weapons in the night and let all the horses free (except Mel's horse) without waking anyone up.

The point of saying it's fan fiction is simply because D&D clearly don't care about the source material at all at this point.

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1 minute ago, Zara Zokan said:

Yep. That Lannister invasion that everyone in King's Landing has mentioned in the small council meetings when Pycelle was farting and Olenna is somehow officially on the small council. The Tyrells just remembered that their armies exist after their heir being imprisoned for episodes whilst not using their armies to deal with any other threat to the realm, so I don't expect the armies to be quick. Plus, Cersei is such a nice and sympathetic person in the show that I'd expect her to forgive Sansa for kingslaying. And yep, the Boltons had a brilliant plan last season by legitimising their claim to the North by marrying a wanted criminal, they're just remembering how stupid the Sansa Marriage Strike is now for some reason. I'm sure they can just use some of that kerosene they used to destroy all of Stannis' siege weapons in the night and let all the horses free (except Mel's horse) without waking anyone up.

The point of saying it's fan fiction is simply because D&D clearly don't care about the source material at all at this point.

The Boltons aren't aware that the Lannisters and Tyrells have bigger problems to contend with at the moment, so their current actions are understandable. And marrying Sansa was the right call, from their perspective. Not only do they receive a Stark to legitimize their claim to the North, they also receive a powerful ally in that of the Vale. 

The point is that fan fiction is the incorrect term to describe the show. If you wish to continue to do so for criticizing purposes, that is your right, but just know you'll be using the word incorrectly.

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6 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

 

The point of saying it's fan fiction is simply because D&D clearly don't care about the source material at all at this point.

BE MORE BOOK!!!!!!

Clearly they do care about the material, since they keep using it, but they are not blind enough to suppose that the material could be adapted in such a straightforward way that many here would like.

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3 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

The Boltons aren't aware that the Lannisters and Tyrells have bigger problems to contend with at the moment, so their current actions are understandable. And marrying Sansa was the right call, from their perspective. Not only do they receive a Stark to legitimize their claim to the North, they also receive a powerful ally in that of the Vale. 

The point is that fan fiction is the incorrect term to describe the show. If you wish to continue to do so for criticizing purposes, that is your right, but just know you'll be using the word incorrectly.

So, if they knew that marrying a wanted criminal would incur the wrath of the Lannisters. So they expected, what, to defeat Stannis using the 20 good men, then win against a Lannister invasion and declare themselves Bolton Kings in the North or something? And yeah, from their perspectives, things sometimes make sense for Ramsay Villain Sue Bolton, but only because it doesn't for anyone else. Like how Sansa would totally have got revenge on the family that murdered her brother by legitimising their claim, or the Northern houses only showing up when plot demands, or... anything, really.

7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

BE MORE BOOK!!!!!!

Clearly they do care about the material, since they keep using it, but they are not blind enough to suppose that the material could be adapted in such a straightforward way that many here would like.

Yes, they keep using things from the books it's supposed to be an adaptation of in wonderful ways that make perfect sense. Such as not having Dany deal with Astapor and Yunkai in her own plot, then only after she rescues Drogon Drogon rescues her and flies off does Tyrion, a foreigner who doesn't speak the language and has only been in Meereen for a few days and therefore is most qualified for the job, have to deal with them.

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4 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

 

Yes, they keep using things from the books it's supposed to be an adaptation of in wonderful ways that make perfect sense. Such as not having Dany deal with Astapor and Yunkai in her own plot, then only after she rescues Drogon Drogon rescues her and flies off does Tyrion, a foreigner who doesn't speak the language and has only been in Meereen for a few days and therefore is most qualified for the job, have to deal with them.

Yeah except most of it does make sense within the show..

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6 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

So, if they knew that marrying a wanted criminal would incur the wrath of the Lannisters. So they expected, what, to defeat Stannis using the 20 good men, then win against a Lannister invasion and declare themselves Bolton Kings in the North or something? 

 

The Boltons expected to defeat Stannis because "500 men can hold Winterfell against an army of ten thousand." Your next argument is unclear. 

 

9 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

 And yeah, from their perspectives, things sometimes make sense for Ramsay Villain Sue Bolton, but only because it doesn't for anyone else.

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

10 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

Like how Sansa would totally have got revenge on the family that murdered her brother by legitimising their claim, or the Northern houses only showing up when plot demands, or... anything, really.

 

Sansa is still being manipulated by Littlefinger. He played on her survivor's guilt and made her believe that there was some grand scheme in the mix. She hasn't realized yet that she is simply a pawn in Littlefinger's game, which is around the same mindset that Sansa has at this point in the books.

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9 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah except most of it does make sense within the show..

Because Tyrion's regent since Barristan needed to die for.... what reason exactly? A shock death? And Dany couldn't have problems with Astapor and Yunkai in season 5 (apart from Maester Aemon somehow getting a raven that Dany was "under siege" when she wouldn't) because of what, exactly? Precious screentime of needing to constantly reject making the light concession of letting free men fighting in the Pits?

4 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

The Boltons expected to defeat Stannis because "500 men can hold Winterfell against an army of ten thousand." Your next argument is unclear. 

 

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

Sansa is still being manipulated by Littlefinger. He played on her survivor's guilt and made her believe that there was some grand scheme in the mix. She hasn't realized yet that she is simply a pawn in Littlefinger's game, which is around the same mindset that Sansa has at this point in the books.

The Bolton claim on the North comes from the Lannisters. Betraying Robb, and then betraying the family who validated their betrayal isn't exactly the smartest move in the world. Why couldn't, say, they have worked with the Lannisters to marry a fArya instead of marrying the wanted criminal. Hell, it's not like the Northern Lords would have even noticed, since they weren't even at the wedding (the person of highest status was Ramsay's beloved Myranda).

I mean that what do the Umbers, for example, hope to gain by outright stating that they don't trust the Boltons, and then handing Rickon to the Boltons free of charge (e.g. they could have sent Shaggydog's head ahead, giving them leverage to gain influence and power). The only way people's plans in the show succeed is if everyone else forgets to apply logic to anything).

I disagree with your interpretation of where book!Sansa's headed, but I won't say it's not entirely valid. I just don't think she's so stupid that she, a rather politically apt woman, would ever think that legitimising someone's claim is getting revenge.

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30 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

So, if they knew that marrying a wanted criminal would incur the wrath of the Lannisters. So they expected, what, to defeat Stannis using the 20 good men, then win against a Lannister invasion and declare themselves Bolton Kings in the North or something? And yeah, from their perspectives, things sometimes make sense for Ramsay Villain Sue Bolton, but only because it doesn't for anyone else. Like how Sansa would totally have got revenge on the family that murdered her brother by legitimising their claim, or the Northern houses only showing up when plot demands, or... anything, really.

Yes, they keep using things from the books it's supposed to be an adaptation of in wonderful ways that make perfect sense. Such as not having Dany deal with Astapor and Yunkai in her own plot, then only after she rescues Drogon Drogon rescues her and flies off does Tyrion, a foreigner who doesn't speak the language and has only been in Meereen for a few days and therefore is most qualified for the job, have to deal with them.

Are you really not understanding this?

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