R Scott Bakker's :The Great Ordeal (spoilers)

[unJon]

10 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Not sure what you're trying to say here. That Bakker wants us (or some segment of his audience) to sympathise with or feel 'horrified' that Dûnyain men are forced to have sex with those females?

Though on the risk of sounding stupid, is Kellhus really evil for procreating in this way? I mean, this is what their race looks like. It's a terrible race as he himself thinks, but what else is someone born in Ishuäl supposed to do but procreate with the females of their race in the only way that they know?

Of course it makes him evil. That's the part of the point Bakker is making: take as a given that X is evil or good or moral or whatever. Now what does that say about evil or good or morality. 

Women are less righteous than men. What does that say about righteousness?

Sorcery damns a soul. What does that say about damnation?

Kel is evil for proceeating the way the Dunyain do. What does that say about evil?

Part of the fun is that some of the judgments in the series line up with the beliefs of the reader and some don't. The dissonance is striking in various places and one reaction is to try to harmonize everything writhin the reader's belief system. 

But that's missing the point. Bakker is instead showing us that evil and damnation mean "tasty" souls that Sons feast on when you die. 

[Udat]

11 minutes ago, red snow said:

Were they ever "normal" women? If they were it's horendous - if they were born as the creatures they now are then it's probably less so as they may see this as their existence?

What I mean is that to me, it doesn't matter if it was 2000 years ago or 1 year ago. Whether they were born that way or bred to be that way. I still envisioned human females when reading that passage so nothing was lost to me. 

[Darzin]

I found it hard to suspend my disbelief with the whale mothers,first  that humans could change that much and also why would they need to be restrained? if they were Dunyain the would accept their fate as necessary. 

[unJon]

It is striking how little jarring EAMD there was in the Akka and Mimara chapter. Must be Bakker making a choice to heavy hand it in Esmi chapters. 

[JGP]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

Were they ever "normal" women? If they were it's horendous - if they were born as the creatures they now are then it's probably less so as they may see this as their existence?

Yes, they were -or as I said- as normal as the [Dunyain] men were anyway. Recall the Dunyain that found the Prince in the prologue of PoN. That group of 'refugees' wasn't just a collection of men. 'We are Dunyain, child.' [emphasis mine]

In regard to all the Chapter headings and Lockisnow's projection... I feel like some of those are definitely reaching.

I guess what I'm wondering now [beyond whether I'll actually continue this series-- deferred until the dust settles] is why the Consult would bother razing Ishual in the first place. By all intents and purposes, unless there are some serious misdirects going on [which there very well could be] the Inchies and Dunyain aren't far apart, and oddly enough, if we're all meat and the Gods are the Butchers, well, they might even be the 'good' guys, right.

 

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

53 minutes ago, Hello World said:

I've only read it once but it did not occur to me that he was a defect. I thought he was disfigured from fighting the sranc.

Yea I just st skimmed through yesterday, I read it last night. I guess he is like that from battling the Sranc?

[kuenjato]

35 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yes. That part of the thing that is horrible here is that men are forced to have sex with really gross women. To some men this will be the most horrifying thought about this. Udat even confirms it above. For him the most horrifying image isn't these women chained for their entire lives in some stage of pregnancy, being forced to breastfeed without holding the children, being forced to hear the babies crying and likely being killed in that room right after being born, over and over again. Or having their jaw and tongue removed so that they can't scream or talk for their entire lives. No, the horrifying aspect is a man bending over her in a shitting pose while impregnation her.

I'm sure Udat can defend himself, but it needs to be said, you are really extrapolating a lot from a little here (to really no surprise whatsoever). The entire segment is horrifying; Bakker uses that particular line to conjure an image of the mating act itself. The male 'arcing like shitting dogs' conjures no sympathy at all for the man -- it's a (too) descriptive scene that frankly turns the stomach because of what is going on, not some men's rights bullshit "oh the poor Dunyain!" I've noticed you've been acting like there is some underlying Bakker fandom that is hand-in-hand with Gamergate goons, but anyone on here for the past decade will know that is hardly the case (any harboring sexist approval would/ have been chased away long ago). Caveat: much of what you've posted here in regards to these excerpts has been very enlightening/interesting, but the regression to your conspiracy theories and strident orthodoxy are getting a touch old/sad after so many years. 

[themerchant]

Sounds like projection over insight. It's gossiping about the readers again rather than book.

I must be pretty isolated i knew nothing of this subset of culture/whatever you call it. Although now i think i may have seen someone call someone a "cuck" before on a message board. I assumed it was a misspelling of another word used as an insult.

 

[Kalbear]

@kuenjato, there is some underlying part of every Fandom that is in line with gamergate goons. Sorry if I implied otherwise, but the point here isn't to criticize bakker for the choices he made. It's to criticize those men.

And anyone who has been here for the last 10 years is taking a small subset of a small fandom that naturally self selects away from MRA types because of the moderation of the forum. That ain't the case elsewhere. 

I mean, come on. Bakker specifically has stated that his books are for men, and not just men - he wants to target sexist men and show them some horrible stuff. Why is it weird to say that sexist men exist and read bakker?

To me this is pretty clearly intent. "Hey you like your women barefoot and pregnant and not interfering in your manly dunyain bro stuff? Okay, I'm going to show you the natural extrapolation of that, show you how horrible that is. You want to treat your women like meat, like objects? Here is specifically what happens. " I think that's why I'm saying that it is about the men in this. If it were for women in this scene it wouldn't be a whale mother. It'd be a woman who is human. And I don't think that it is an accident.

[JGP]

Sexist men are Bakker's target audience? That explains his publishing woes, hahaha...

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, themerchant said:

Sounds like projection over insight. It's gossiping about the readers again rather than book.

I must be pretty isolated i knew nothing of this subset of culture/whatever you call it. Although now i think i may have seen someone call someone a "cuck" before on a message board. I assumed it was a misspelling of another word used as an insult.

 

I'm gossiping about neither. I'm talking about a whole bunch of culture things happening right now, and I'm stating that these people do exist. If you're not one of them cool beans. If you dont follow US news perhaps this isn't a big deal to you, but right now in the US the presumptive leader of a major party publicly calls women cunts, tells ugly women they have nothing to live for and is horrified of Rosie ODonnell.

And yes, if you've not heard of gamergate, MRA, or Donald trump you are probably a bit isolated. Guess that would be my final point here - do you think Donald trump would be more empathetic with the whale mothers or with the guy having to fuck them? 

[themerchant]

He said he writes for men. It was in the comments made and quoted on a blog of a compatriot of mine and then ofc Bakker turns up in the blog lol.

"What I’m always interested in in all my books is the reader, their moral sensibilities and their biological drives(among other things). I always assume this reader is male. As a male, I know the ways of the male gaze…"

https://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/the-problem-of-r-scott-bakker/

Might as well let him explain it in own words.

[Kalbear]

23 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea I just st skimmed through yesterday, I read it last night. I guess he is like that from battling the Sranc?

Yep. He took wounds that were not life threatening so that he could continue fighting. Everything that was not fatal was potentially considered.

[Hello World]

45 minutes ago, Triskan said:

The fact that it was the Consult rather than Kellhus that destroyed Ishual makes it seem like there's still a possibility that Kellhus has some Dunyain with him.  Or that seems likelier in this scenario than in the scenario where Kellhus destroyed Ishual.

I'm still not 100% on that. Remember what Akka says at the entrance to the dungeon, nothing is what it appears to be! Nothing!

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Sexist men are Bakker's target audience? That explains his publishing woes, hahaha...

Well, to bakker all men are sexist. All men are consumed by their biology. (All women are too, mind you). And more importantly said sexism isn't a cultural artifact or choice - it's biologically driven. You can't separate it out from being a man.

And yeah, it does explain his publishing woes. He is openly stating he writes for men in a genre that is dominated heavily by women consumers. It is a bit of a slog.

[themerchant]

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I'm gossiping about neither. I'm talking about a whole bunch of culture things happening right now, and I'm stating that these people do exist. If you're not one of them cool beans. If you dont follow US news perhaps this isn't a big deal to you, but right now in the US the presumptive leader of a major party publicly calls women cunts, tells ugly women they have nothing to live for and is horrified of Rosie ODonnell.

And yes, if you've not heard of gamergate, MRA, or Donald trump you are probably a bit isolated. Guess that would be my final point here - do you think Donald trump would be more empathetic with the whale mothers or with the guy having to fuck them? 

You're talking about unidentified readers and listing their sexual fantasies.

" but again it doesn't horrify the loyal anti cuck MRA audience if you can't picture being forced to have sex with fat women. "

I of course know about Donald Trump. I don't know him but i imagine he'd talk about the plight of the males.

I live in a country where the majority of political leaders are female. The majority also identify as LGBT. I'm not even sure we'd let Trump in for the things he'd said, as opposed to elect him.

EDIT: It's becoming clear i'm ignorant of some American Culture relevant to this.

We also have sexist men by the way, quite a few in fact. Never hear about cuckholding or men's right outside child custody.

[Kalbear]

Heck, here's bakker saying it. Take this as your frame for the whale mothers and see what conclusion you reach.

So here I am, being relentlessly critical, not only of the genre, but of male sexuality and where it’s headed, and being called a misogynist because I’m provoking by engaging – playing Nabokov’s game…

 

[Hello World]

I guess I'm kind of isolated a bit... Which country is majority LGBT?

[themerchant]

4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

I guess I'm kind of isolated a bit... Which country is majority LGBT?

Scotland, 4 out of the 6 leaders. Best of a bad lot is probably the best way to describe next this parliament will be more legislation coming. The political leaders are. sorry if it came across the population was.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/05/tartan-rainbow-why-great-to-be-gay-in-scotland-lgbt-rights-kezia-dugdale

[JGP]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, to bakker all men are sexist. All men are consumed by their biology. (All women are too, mind you). And more importantly said sexism isn't a cultural artifact or choice - it's biologically driven. You can't separate it out from being a man.

And yeah, it does explain his publishing woes. He is openly stating he writes for men in a genre that is dominated heavily by women consumers. It is a bit of a slog.

themerchant's link was illuminating. Her criticisms were on point.

He's espousing what I'd imagine quite a few neural biologists might believe [I'm a little skeptical there, mind] but he doesn't possess the social wherewithall to at least soften his rhetoric. Shame. I see your point now.