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R Scott Bakker's :The Great Ordeal (spoilers)


Kalbear

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12 minutes ago, fowl said:

Are they different? Not arguing just don't remember great differences besides the lack of hair and total uniformity to the human eye. The Whale Mother skulls were just skulls at the point Akka and Mim find them right?

I'd have to take a look, but I believe it was clear that the skulls were obviously different. Sranc heads are different than human heads too - bigger eyes, smoother and longer facial features - and they're like nonmen. 

(also in looking this up, I found a quote from RSB that said that while sranc and humans can't breed sranc and nonmen can. Huh.)

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These previews were dope and really blew open the metaphysics. Here's what I think is going on:

First there's the One, which is synonymous with the unconsciousness of death because where there is no awareness there is no striving. Then you have the Solitary God because out of an inexplicable hunger and maybe even terror of being alone (recall "how can a god hunger?") refracts himself into a multiplicity that, ultimately, exist only to consume progressively individuated portions of their essence in a vain attempt fill this hunger.

 

So even God himself in the Bakkerverse is afflicted by a kind of metaphysical craving or lack that cannot be explained or satisfied. The only remedy is death. Ciphrang are just nexuses, the nuclei of different "shades" of this hunger refracted into sex, gluttony, zealotry, bloodlust and all the myriad ways Men Are Ever Deceived. 
 

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More past prophecy, courtesy of unJon:

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Have the gods of Earwa always been shattered into a million (hundred?) little pieces warring? Was there some event that shattered the God into the gods? Did the non-men do it? I mean, they worship the spaces between the gods, so it's a small leap to think they may have created those spaces and cracked and shattered the God in doing so? Is the shattered God why Earwa is "special" and will allow the Inchies to finally succeed in shutting a world? Are the cracks between the gods the same as the "joints" in reality that the Few see and what allows the obscenity of sorcery to work? So many questions.

Crackpot: Kellhus' goal is to unite the gods into God again, and thus stop damnation. He is also the reason that they fractured in the first place - he is the one who pulled the ocean away and created desire. This happens in the future but affects all time. Mimara's Eye is key to this and thus is the Real prophecy. The Consult know this and know they must protect Mimara at all costs. She is the key to creating an Outside with no need for desire, and thus no need for the outside entities to sup on the artifacts of desire - damnation. 

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27 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

More past prophecy, courtesy of unJon:

Crackpot: Kellhus' goal is to unite the gods into God again, and thus stop damnation. He is also the reason that they fractured in the first place - he is the one who pulled the ocean away and created desire. This happens in the future but affects all time. Mimara's Eye is key to this and thus is the Real prophecy. The Consult know this and know they must protect Mimara at all costs. She is the key to creating an Outside with no need for desire, and thus no need for the outside entities to sup on the artifacts of desire - damnation. 

Well, that would definitely answer why the the thing called Soma protected her. I'd also add that her baby might be key in any prophecy also. Or, maybe why Aurang asked if she was pregnant was to confirm the Judging Eye? Also, we know that Nil'Giccas knew a Mimara and Akka reflects over and over about Esme being a odd name for a whore. To me, just more of the past predicting the future and all that.

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Well Bakker does have an out with the genetics seeing as the Dunyain do have Nonmen genetics in them and who knows what those can do.I just think the reveal lacks much substance or thought and it's the first time I have been genuinely disappointed with the second apocalypse series. Multiple posters have proposed much better ideas then what we got.

Also I don't think desire damns you it's what you desire that does. I don't have my books but in the appendixes mention compensatory gods and punitive gods presumably which god takes you matters on what your soul looks like. Also we no basically know Inrithism is bullshit the gods and inhabitants of the outside are not "aspects of god" any more than normal men and women are. Also we are all now taking a very Fanim view of the metaphysics, the gods are not holy but evil soul snacking demons. Since the Cishaurim can see this, I hope they have a method to avoid it. But Kellhus seems to have set up is Empire so it will fall to people who hate the hundred gods, If he didn't want that to happen Fanayal  would be dead.  

 

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Desire effectively damns you, because you can't resist it. Even when you think you can. Because basically everything that your biology says that you want makes you damned. You are not who you think you are. Your desires rule you even when you think otherwise. 

Want to fuck? Sorry, unless you're procreating with your holy wife you're damned. And you as a man are programmed to want to fuck everything. If you want to fuck men you're also damned. If you want to enjoy yourself you're damned. 

Want to kill? Most violence makes you damned.

Want to save your family from harm? Most things you do there make you damned. 

Want to avoid desire and become self-moving? In order to do that, you have to do a whole lot of things that damn you super super bad. 

Heck, Psatma is probably the most holy of holy things we've seen. Her god acts through her, and she does basically everything in the name of Yatwer. And he confesses that she's gonna be hanging out with Yatwer after she dies, because she's going to be damned. 

How about use sorcery to defend your nation, your friends, your family? Damned.

And as a woman, your stated goal is to be a slake for these desires of men - but even doing that makes you damned. 

Desire and deceit in the name of that desire are what damns you, and that's good, because what damns you makes you extra tasty. Without desire, there would be no reason to not avoid damnation, right? No conflict. The biggest motive you would have is, oh, not to roast in eternal torment. So you'd do that, because you'd have no reason not to. But instead you have desire, and you have deceit. You want what you have not. You covet. And you do that because the gods are split and do not have everything they want, and therefore you are fashioned in a way that you do not have everything you want - and more importantly, you want

Oh hey, speaking of desire and damnation - remember how Mimara said to the scalper "I forgive you" when seeing his damnation and he went limp? Kind of means something slightly different if you think of forgiveness as taking away desire, no?

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1 minute ago, Triskan said:

I've mentioned this before, but I still very much feel like after these sample chapters that we have a good inkling of where the Northern storylines are going.  Not the specifics and all of the reveals, but generally, the direction. 

And I still feel like we have no idea what's going to happen back in the Esmi/Kelmo/Malo/WLW storyline.  Did we not get a little Kellhus POV in this sample that confirmed that he intended for the New Empire to fail?  If it does, where does that storyline go? Esmi is enslaved by Fanim and we get more inner-monologue EAMD while she's made a whore by Fanayal?  Obviously I hope not.

We did get that Kellhus intended for the empire to fall - and we also got that his heart couldn't take it, and he wants more than that. 

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23 minutes ago, Triskan said:

I've mentioned this before, but I still very much feel like after these sample chapters that we have a good inkling of where the Northern storylines are going.  Not the specifics and all of the reveals, but generally, the direction. 

And I still feel like we have no idea what's going to happen back in the Esmi/Kelmo/Malo/WLW storyline.  Did we not get a little Kellhus POV in this sample that confirmed that he intended for the New Empire to fail?  If it does, where does that storyline go? Esmi is enslaved by Fanim and we get more inner-monologue EAMD while she's made a whore by Fanayal?  Obviously I hope not.

Stay tuned. . . ;)

Patrick

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Since we are pulling out old predictions I'm feeling good about the second half of this one I made in 2009.The second half at least. This was pre-WLW and the first half looking iffy given the white luck warrior POV  

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The answer, IMO, is that the absolute rule in Earwa is that what comes before determines what comes after. Period. Moe, as the sane Dunyain to spend years contemplating the issue concluded, even the Outside is subject to the principle. I think that Kel proclaiming that sorcerors are not damned has not made it so. He is lying. However, it could be made so. Someone could "come before" the Outside and dominate it. I think that's what Kel is attempting.

 

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Thought this was neat, too. From Bakker:

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"I’m more keen on embracing the conventions than breaking them - the twisting seems to happen of its own accord. The biggie, the one that spans The Second Apocalypse in its entirety, is eschatology - no surprise there. What does it mean to live in a world with an objective narrative structure (which is to say, a world with a climax and an end)? And conversely, what does it mean to live in a world that doesn’t? The others, I think, are pretty obvious."

What happens when Kellhus ends the world? What is left over? We have the story of the beginning - of how one became many, and with it begat desire and deceit. The ending, presumably, would then be the many reuniting and becoming one. 

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And further on:

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Which is interesting; the No-God in that case dies like a paradox, right? Like a chorae reacting to a sorcerer. As soon as reality seeps in the No-God's paradoxical nature is revealed, and it is destroyed. Perhaps that's the real paradox; the No-god exists in time in multiple places at once (dare I say it - it is created in the future) which creates a temporal paradox that cannot be answered in the God's causal space, since to them it was never created and thus could not exist...

Ah. There we go.

1. God creates everything. Once created, God tracks that thing and sees its entire causal history, as God knows all variables.

2. The No-God is not created by God or anything of God. There is no change tracking on the No-God.

3. Therefore, the No-God is outside of the God's tracking, yet it exists on the world where everything that exists must have been created by God. Therefore, paradox.

 

Now here's the part I don't get yet - where does Mimara fit into this? She can also see something's entire causal history. She...oh. Heh.

She is what brings the No-God here, after it is created. Or she is what obliterates it from whence it came. She can create a bridge between the paradoxical - like she uses the chorae to bridge to create a maximally objective frame, she can bridge to something outside of the causal frame. She exists after the escatological end of everything but has the power to see with the eschatology. What happens when she exists past the end of everything? What does the eye of God see when it looks at something outside of God?

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I can envision the conversation between Bakker and Brother that led to TSA. 

Bakker: But imagine if religion was Truth. If there was a God out there and you are damned forever. Like hellish punishment forever. For eating pork. Or premarital sex. Or masturbating. 

Brother: man, everyone would be damned.  

Bakker: exactly, and it's only man's ability to deceive himself the makes him not realize that. 

Brother: but why would God do that? Why would he make a system where everyone is dammed?

Bakker: because God wants everyone dammed I guess. You can't judge God in human terms. It's God. Why would you think he can be analyzed on your terms. Shit, maybe God just likes human misery. Maybe that's sustenance for God. That's what makes us taste good. 

Brother: man that's evil 

Bakker: ever are you deceived brother. Not evil. It's God. You can't judge him in our terms. He judges us in his . . . On Its terms. 

Brother: ok so what should humanity do? I guess walk the narrow path. Don't sin. Not become tasty. Fade into oblivion?

Bakket: that might work for someone not a man. Hey not-man, I like that.  No. Nonman  that's better. But a man is just the sum of his beliefs and desires. Can't help the biological imperative to fuck and fight and dominate. All those things damn you. Thinking rationally, humanity would need to somehow overthrow God. 

 

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Talking about gods finding us tasty, here's Fane talking about the end of all time:

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RS Bakker, TWP, pg 251 said:

… the ends of the earth shall be wracked by the howls of the wicked, and the idols shall be cast down and shattered, stone against stone. And the demons of the idolaters shall hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger.

—16:4:22 THE WITNESS OF FANE

 

Sorry guys, we're not bread any more. I brought this up not just because of how far this has been planned out, but how it might hint at the way things end - where the gods are denied their food. Their lake is empty of souls. 

So which happens - do the souls go to another lake, or are the Sons shuttered away from the lake?

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We know two possible solutions:

1) nonman oblivion. Soul goes to a different lake

2) close the world and leave the gods howling at the gates like hungry wolves. The Inchoroi solution. 

Dies Kel have a third way? Reunite the gods? Kill the gods? 

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6 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Hasn't it been suggested that #1, while it was a swell idea, doesn't actually work?

Yes. In False Sun. Titurgia thought it worked. Shae thought it didn't work. 

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4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I'd be willing to accept sexual dimorphism if it resulted in men looking super fucked up and women looking super fucked up. Instead, we get men looking completely normal

When they should look like mutants?

Speak with Master Mould...

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38 minutes ago, unJon said:

We know two possible solutions:

1) nonman oblivion. Soul goes to a different lake

2) close the world and leave the gods howling at the gates like hungry wolves. The Inchoroi solution. 

Dies Kel have a third way? Reunite the gods? Kill the gods? 

The Judging Eye has opened.

She feels it leaning through her worldly eyes, pressing forward, throwing off the agony like rotted clothes, snuffing fact from sight, drawing out the sanctity and the sin. With terrible fixation it stares into the oblivion spilling from her palm…

And somehow, impossibly, passes through.

She blinks on the far side of contradiction, her face and shoulders pulled back in a warm wind, a breath, a premonition of summer rain. And she sees it, a point of luminous white, a certainty, shining out from the pit that blackens her grasp. A voice rises, a voice without word or tone, drowsy with compassion, and the light grows and grows, shrinking the abyss to a rind, to the false foil that it is, burning to dust, and the glory, the magnificence, shines forth, radiant, blinding…

And she holds all… In her hand she holds it!

A Tear of God.

=-=-=

"Those who are saved by the light of the mystery which I have revealed unto you, O Hermes, and which I now bid you to establish among men, shall return again to the Father who dwelleth in the White Light, and shall deliver themselves up to the Light and shall be absorbed into the Light, and in the Light they shall become Powers in God. This is the Way of Good and is revealed only to them that have wisdom."

-Thoth Hermes Trismegistus

 

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