R Scott Bakker's :The Great Ordeal (spoilers)

[Hello World]

35 minutes ago, unJon said:

Classic Bakker to not have blogged forever when a bunch of preview material is out and it would be the perfect time to get some good PR. 

It seems strange actually. I would expect him to post about the excerpts given his past post patterns. He hasn't tweeted anything since  the gdm excerpt either.

I wonder if he's finished answering the interview questions yet.

[Callan S.]

3 hours ago, unJon said:

Classic Bakker to not have blogged forever when a bunch of preview material is out and it would be the perfect time to get some good PR. 

Yeah, this! Though I hope it's not because the flu he had got worse.

[Baztek]

12 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

You think its the Nonmen? Could this be something to do with the Nail of Heaven? If it was the Nonmen it makes sense that after they splintered the God, they realized they screwed up and started worshipping the spaces between the Gods......to no avail.

ETA: Or maybe something to do with the Breaking of the Gates? Right after that we have men encountering the Gods, Angrashaël and so on. Or maybe the "Gods" were just the Inchies? 

Outside existed before the physical universe, so whatever triggered the Outside couldn't have been caused by anything on Earwa. I think this is implied by one of the Sons saying "we pondered you."

By the way, big ups - or not - on Bakker out-inchoroing the inchoroi with the Sons. That Outside part is really some of the most harrowing shit I've ever read. Guy's a nut. Also can someone please fucking tell me what "The living should not haunt the dead" is supposed to mean?

[Hello World]

2 hours ago, Baztek said:

Outside existed before the physical universe, so whatever triggered the Outside couldn't have been caused by anything on Earwa.

Do we know this for sure?

[Kalbear]

We don't. We also don't know if what splintered the gods also triggered the outside.

As an example, it's a totally reasonable hypothesis to say that the Ark crashing caused the god to split into gods. And that the inchies ended up creating the world they needed to exist, and prior to their crash they simply believed that damnation was true but this was an illusion.

Or it could be due to the nature of time that the existence of the God and the absolute was what ended up splintering itself in order to create itself.

[Callan S.]

4 hours ago, Baztek said:

Also can someone please fucking tell me what "The living should not haunt the dead" is supposed to mean?

http://cdn.quotesgram.com/small/23/62/2108474220-tumblr_n7jev9dcYs1tpdcs9o1_500.jpg

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

I think, based on what he says to Proyas regarding the inability to conceive of God in totality, that Kellhus believes that the God was splintered into Its fragments in the very act of first being perceived but not comprehended by the first sentient beings in the universe. In other words, the Hundred are born out of human and Non-Men perception of the presence of God in Its aspects but failure to comprehend the unity of each aspect with the whole. Kellhus and the Dunyain believe, perhaps, that by grasping the Absolute they grasp the idea of God entire and can therefore force its pieces back together, destroying the Hundred in the process and solidifying once and for all the objectivity of the world.

[all swedes are racist]

I dunno man. The scene in the Outside was cool, but probably less harrowing than many metal album covers 

[unJon]

Quote

We pondered you, says the most crocodilian of the Sons.

“But I have never been here.”

You said this very thing, it grates, seizing the line of the horizon, wrapping him like a fly. Legs click like machines of war. Yesss ...

And you refuse to succumb to their sucking mouths, ringed with one million pins of silver. You refuse to drip fear like honey—because you have no fear.

Because you fear not damnation.

Because there is a head on a pole behind you.

 “And what was your reply?”

The living shall not haunt the dead.

The above shows Kel has been here at least three times. He says he's never been here. The most crocadilian Son says Kel said that very thing. That implies one other time. But it implies during that other time that they had the same conversation where Kel also said he hadn't been there before, implying a third time he had been there. You can almost infer a recursive process where Kel had been there infinite times having the same conversation. 

Bizarre. Maybe it has to do with how the Sons see Time. Like the white luck warrior?

Are the Other Sons the Inchoroi? "drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy ..." 

Description fits I think. And the location fits. The Other Sons are where Kel is sitting, where "he has always hidden" and where the head in the pole is anchoring him. In other words in Earwa. 

[all swedes are racist]

Apologies if this has been discussed and I missed it, but 

Quote

He is here ... with you ... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the antecedents of this line... This is suggesting (to me at least) there are at least three distinct subjects/objects here. Makes me question who is actually there in the Outside at that moment, and when this is taking place? 

[Sci-2]

Wondering if Bakker was inspired by PKDick's work as much as he was by Dune?

“We are pluriforms of God voluntarily descended to this prison world, voluntarily losing our memory, identity, and supernatural powers (faculties), all of which can be regained through anamnesis.”
-P.K.Dick

“From Ikhnaton [pharaoh who initiated monotheism] this knowledge passed to Moses, and from Moses to Elijah, the Immortal Man, who became Christ. But underneath all the names there is only one Immortal Man; and we are that man.”
-P.K.Dick

[Hello World]

Bakker has commented on the possibility of the whale mothers happening on his last blog post. On my phone though, would appreciate it if someone else can quote him.

[Sci-2]

 

4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Bakker has commented on the possibility of the whale mothers happening on his last blog post. On my phone though, would appreciate it if someone else can quote him.

Here it is:

"I get the idea of big picture credibility arguments, but these kind of disputes in fantasy fiction often strike me as opportunistic. You could argue the natural impossibility of any number of things in ALL fantastic narratives, so the question has to be why this one thing? If people buy skin-spies, why do they draw the line at whale-mothers?

I suppose I could just cook up a rationale: The Dunyain possess an artificially selected genetic mutation that only cues whale-mother dimorphism in the presence of estrogen in certain concentrations. After all, gender dimorphism is a characteristic of all species possessing gender (mammals included), in many cases far more radically than suggested here.

There’s better things to argue about, if you ask me. Such as the role played by the Logos, for one."

[Happy Ent]

I’m here, finally read the two excerpts, and the 340 posts. Good work, all.

Kal, could you edit the very first post so at so link to both chapters?

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

30 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Wondering if Bakker was inspired by PKDick's work as much as he was by Dune?

“We are pluriforms of God voluntarily descended to this prison world, voluntarily losing our memory, identity, and supernatural powers (faculties), all of which can be regained through anamnesis.”
-P.K.Dick

“From Ikhnaton [pharaoh who initiated monotheism] this knowledge passed to Moses, and from Moses to Elijah, the Immortal Man, who became Christ. But underneath all the names there is only one Immortal Man; and we are that man.”
-P.K.Dick

Yeah, in my post on the last page I also noted similarities between Bakker and Dick's treatment of the God-Thing and associated theological horror. See particularly the Dick short story Faith of Our Fathers in Ellison's Dangerous Visions collection.

[Sci-2]

1 minute ago, Gasp of Many Reeds said:

Yeah, in my post on the last page I also noted similarities between Bakker and Dick's treatment of the God-Thing and associated theological horror. See particularly the Dick short story Faith of Our Fathers in Ellison's Dangerous Visions collection.

Ah missed that - apologies. This does recall the sermon to Proyas in the excerpt ->

Quote

"I think," Tanya said, "that if there is a God He has very little interest in human affairs. That's my theory, anyhow. I mean, He doesn't seem to care if evil triumphs or people or animals get hurt and die. I frankly don't see Him anywhere around. And the Party has always denied any form of --"

"Did you ever see Him?" he asked. "When you were a child?" "Oh, sure, as a child. But I also believed --"

"Did it ever occur to you," Chien said, "that good and evil are names for the same thing? That God could be both good and evil at the same time?"

And this sounds a bit like sorcery:

Quote

"What did Dryden mean," Chien said, "about music untuning the sky? I don't get that. What does music do to the sky?"

"All the celestial order of the universe ends," she said as she hung her raincoat up in the closet of the bedroom; under it she wore an orange striped sweater and stretch-pants.

He said, "And that's bad?"

Pausing, she reflected. "I don't know. I guess so."

"It's a lot of power," he said, "to assign to music."

 

[Sci-2]

45 minutes ago, Triskan said:

From the Ishual Chapter:

My bolding.  Who says what is righteous?

Also, kind of funny that Akka jumps to the conclusion that Kellhus destroyed Ishual as many readers did. 

I had not caught on the first read that the boy said the fight went on for years.  Makes me wonder if any other Dunyain could have escaped. 

I assume the God has decided what is righteous, that or what is moral is just written into reality. (I assume Bakker is familiar with Euthyphro's Dilemma? Maybe he's trying to make a point about that?) 

Though it's a bit jarring to have an underlying "objective" morality while the moral compasses of at least few characters point toward the morality we seem to employ in our modern world[.]

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

31 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

I assume the God has decided what is righteous, that or what is moral is just written into reality. (I assume Bakker is familiar with Euthyphro's Dilemma? Maybe he's trying to make a point about that?) 

Though it's a bit jarring to have an underlying "objective" morality while the moral compasses of at least few characters point toward the morality we seem to employ in our modern world[.]

 

Kalbear indeed makes a great case for objective morality on Earwa. I am just confused about all of it, is all. There seems to be a few contradictions I can't get my head around. Like Mimara seeing the chorae with the Judging Eye and it's pure and holy, truly a Tear of God. Yet, when we get Kellhus's POV of the Outside and his explanation of the God (IT), what It seems to want is damnation. Prayer is a ticket straight to damnation. What? So, what in the world do you have to do to avoid damnation? Why is Mimara so holy when she glimpses herself with the Judging Eye? Is it because she's a whore? (Not a joke, she does bend to the demands of Men as a whore, no pun intended) Mimara does pray to Yatwer, so why hasn't this damned her? If women are objectively morally inferior, then why is Mimara holy? I just can't seem to make it add up.

Quick aside: Who really does speak to Kellhus? If the God sleeps then I don't imagine that is who it is. The No-God? Or, is he so close to the Absolute that indeed it is the God? My opinion is it isn't the God, I'd lay my money on the No-God.

[Sci-2]

It seems the word "morality" is being used in two ways:

-What is Right/Wrong, Good/Evil.

-The actions that one should attempt to undertake to be in accord with the Will of God and thus (supposedly) avoid damnation.

However according to Kellhus' experience morality matters little because whatever you do it flavors the meat of your soul. Goes back to the whole idea of Heaven & Hell being the same place:

For I have seen the virtuous in Hell and the wicked in Heaven. And I swear to you, brother, the scream you hear in the one and the sigh you hear in the other sound the same.

–Anonymous

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

So what makes Mimara Holy?