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R Scott Bakker's :The Great Ordeal (spoilers)


Kalnestk Oblast

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Whale mother theory that don't love but just thought of. Genetics isn't the right way to analyze this. It's about the soul and coming close to the Absolute for the souls through selective breeding. For men that means smarter, faster, stronger, taller, etc. For women that means better yielding to the needs of the man's soul so becoming better breeders. 

 

<_<

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2 minutes ago, unJon said:

We know two possible solutions:

1) nonman oblivion. Soul goes to a different lake

Doesn't stop damnation or the feeding. And would require everyone to be taught how to find oblivion, something that the nonmen could not do. This doesn't end the world, either. 

2 minutes ago, unJon said:

2) close the world and leave the gods howling at the gates like hungry wolves. The Inchoroi solution. 

Dies Kel have a third way? Reunite the gods? Kill the gods? 

It really depends a whole lot on what end of the world means, I suppose. I get the feeling that shutting the Earwan world off from the Outside doesn't end it, either. It reduces things, but the world does not stop. You can still write on the onta, chorae still matter. (an aside: the feeling of dread and lethargy when the No-God is around makes sense if you assume that the imperfect separation of soul and connection to outside is the main cause of desire, and that desire is now lacking). 

No, I'm thinking that either desire is erased or damnation is erased. The notion of Mimara forgiving everything is interesting. The No-God being a sin eater is another. 

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9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Doesn't stop damnation or the feeding. And would require everyone to be taught how to find oblivion, something that the nonmen could not do. This doesn't end the world, either. 

It really depends a whole lot on what end of the world means, I suppose. I get the feeling that shutting the Earwan world off from the Outside doesn't end it, either. It reduces things, but the world does not stop. You can still write on the onta, chorae still matter. (an aside: the feeling of dread and lethargy when the No-God is around makes sense if you assume that the imperfect separation of soul and connection to outside is the main cause of desire, and that desire is now lacking). 

No, I'm thinking that either desire is erased or damnation is erased. The notion of Mimara forgiving everything is interesting. The No-God being a sin eater is another. 

Yes. Remember TDTCB prologue:

inchies say there are no crimes if there are no men 

Dunyain say there are no crimes if there is no deceit

Mimara will say there are no crimes if there is no desire

Book of Fane quote from preview chapter tied it all together. God said let there be desire and deceit. 

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1 minute ago, unJon said:

Crap I think my whale mother explanation has legs. Remember Earwa is the world that works basically like the ancients think it works. 

It's possible. We've not seen a lot of evidence of things being shaped towards ends, and also remember that Mimara thinks this is absurdly, hugely evil. 

What is interesting about this theory is how it ties in with the Inchoroi. If desire and purpose shape form, and the Inchoroi shaped themselves to better serve their desires - perhaps the Tekne isn't a creation of theirs - perhaps it's a natural extension of the World and the way it works. 

My suspicion is that this isn't part of the world, and that the world is maximally objective - and therefore very difficult to change in this way. 

Still think it's not as emotionally impactful other than to the white guys who unironically refer to BB8 as a cuck ball.

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7 minutes ago, unJon said:

Crap I think my whale mother explanation has legs. Remember Earwa is the world that works basically like the ancients think it works. 

Yeah I like it. In the past we've discussed the idea of final causation, the world being drawn toward certain ends.

Your explanation is teleological which seems to fit well with Bakkerverse science. It might also explain why/how the Inchies discovered their damnation...not to mention how something as grotesque as an Inchoroi could originally have been human...

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If Mimara could pity and forgive Mr Child Rapist, she could probably bring herself to forgive the Countless Dead if given the chance to do so. Or if nothing else, she might do it to save Akka from damnation.

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6 minutes ago, Electric Bass said:

If Mimara could pity and forgive Mr Child Rapist, she could probably bring herself to forgive the Countless Dead if given the chance to do so. Or if nothing else, she might do it to save Akka from damnation.

But do we know that her forgiving the rapist  (eta: wait, who’s the child rapist, I thought you were talking about Galian) actually saved him from damnation?

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Yea, I think people are confused on Mimara and her forgiveness. She forgives Galian his one final sin and that's it. I can find no where that says she can forgive anyone's damnation. If I'm wrong please point me to it, but I don't think she does. All she ever forgives is sins committed against her.

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6 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, I think people are confused on Mimara and her forgiveness. She forgives Galian his one final sin and that's it. I can find no where that says she can forgive anyone's damnation. If I'm wrong please point me to it, but I don't think she does. All she ever forgives is sins committed against her.

Sure, so far. Maybe. We don't know what happened with the loose seal. I've mentioned before how I thought she brought maximal objectivity to the area via the Judging Eye looking in and seeing what should be the way things are, or seeing that place as it was meant to be, but what if instead she removed the Topoi and the spirit by simply removing the damnation of the area? 

Just poof, she forgives all, and instead of the suffering and torment and tasty delicious treats that bring all the Ciphrang to the yard, it's all gone...and with it is gone any way for the Outside to merge in?

An aside: it's interesting that with the revelation that we are bread (of which leavening includes suffering) and that a ton of suffering and damnation actions in one place cause it to be more close to the Outside - is this because it basically is too irresistable to the Outside? That a Topoi is the equivalent of Jimmy Johns offering free smells? 

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11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Sure, so far. Maybe. We don't know what happened with the loose seal. I've mentioned before how I thought she brought maximal objectivity to the area via the Judging Eye looking in and seeing what should be the way things are, or seeing that place as it was meant to be, but what if instead she removed the Topoi and the spirit by simply removing the damnation of the area? 

Just poof, she forgives all, and instead of the suffering and torment and tasty delicious treats that bring all the Ciphrang to the yard, it's all gone...and with it is gone any way for the Outside to merge in?

An aside: it's interesting that with the revelation that we are bread (of which leavening includes suffering) and that a ton of suffering and damnation actions in one place cause it to be more close to the Outside - is this because it basically is too irresistable to the Outside? That a Topoi is the equivalent of Jimmy Johns offering free smells? 

That's a good explanation for what a Topoi is Kalbear. I've never really understood what went done in Cil-Aujus. I like that as an answer. I definitely feel that Mimara is special and might have the ability to forgive damnation, I just wasn't sure she had done so before.

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Quote

 

I think Kellhus' thought experiment was correct. I also think that for how the Dunyain treat people they would be almost immediately damned, stained beyond repair. Their society revolves around torturing humans to glean information. They're not exactly saints. Somehow Kellhus would have to convince them that the Outside is real, that humanity is worth saving but also convince them that the Dunyain should accept damnation happily and that closing off the Outside is a bad idea...why?

Because God exists? Because the No-God does?

Really, the only way I can see Kellhus convincing the Dunyain - any of them - to join him is either via brute force (and I don't see that working; Kellhus wouldn't keep a Dunyain slave because they're too dangerous) or because Kellhus is actually planning on becoming the ur-soul, and in that process the rest of the Dunyain will meet the Truth. Which coincides nicely with the idea that Kellhus totally wants an apocalypse.

 

Hmmm

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Also: how is it that things like skin-spies can recognize not only a gnostic sorcerer but can see that Chigra burns brightly in him? 

What sight does a skin-spy have that allows them to see Seswatha's soul? 

ETA: aw, in retrospect this quote is telling (from the synthese to the Soma-spy):

Quote

Continue tracking them, Tsuor. At the very least, they will take you home.

Why would going to Ishual take him home? Because duh, the Consult were there. Should have realized it then.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh, I think just about the entire forum has been accused of being Bakker by now.

We are all the ur-soul, and we are all Bakker. We are the hundred aspects that constantly war against each other, blind to the Truth. 

And the truth is simple: we are all Prince ByTor alts, including Bakker.

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17 hours ago, Electric Bass said:

I could see Mimara forgiving literally every soul in the Outside, redeeming them and removing them from the grasp of the Sons.

She'd have to be able to forgive her mother first.

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The fools discovered and awakened the last two surviving Inchoroi, Aurax and Aurang, who had concealed themselves in the labyrithine recesses of the Ark. And at their hoary kness the outlaw Schoolmen learned that damnation, the burden all sorcerers bore, need not be inevitable. They learned that the world could be shut against the judgment of Heaven. So they forged a common purpose with the twin abominations, a Consult, and bent their cunning to the aborted designs of the Inchoroi.

Why highlight this?

Continuing the wonderful Top Chef Soul Baking analogy - if the World is the granary, and we are the bread, what is Judgment? It is the oven. It is the crucible that turns our desires and actions into sins and damnation. 

When the No-God walks, nothing is judged. Nothing has objective worth. Souls escape to the Outside freely and likely are angelic, because they are completely free of damnation. They cannot be reached from the World. 

Now, how does this occur? I'm not sure about that part. I earlier thought that the No-God is a sin-eater, and that's kind of right. There's mention that when the No-God is awake souls travel no further - but I suspect that it's more accurate to say that souls become unreachable, and it produces a sort of event horizon. The No-God being created outside of the causal linkage of the World and God makes sense too - it is created after the eschatological apocalypse, so it can't be seen by anything before it even though it is there. But I don't know how it diverts the Judgment. 

I'm also starting to think that the question it asks - WHAT DO YOU SEE - is targeted towards one person only: Mimara. And her attempting to see the No-God with the Judging Eye is what ends the world. 

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