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The Prince That Was Promised


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Just an observation here - but the show is quite heavy on using ALL of Dany's titles when she performs one of her special snowflake superpowers.  When she gets a new title, it is just added on.  Jon, one of the few human beings to have seen a WW and just been resurrected from the dead, has no titles other than his workplace one, Lord Commander (or at least until recently). 

This causes me to wonder that it seems we are beaten over the head with Dany, storm born, unburnt, mother of dragons blah blah blah yet Jon has none.  It brings a certain legitimacy to Dany and I contrast that to the very quiet rebirth of Jon Whoever.  We could be being deceived with the listing of titles by using the look over here, shiny things approach to Dany while Jon trudges on. It could be that we are being prepared for our savior (savior-ess?) Dany when all along it was the unassuming North dude.  

I write this as a viewer who likes both Jon and Dany and basically agree that they both have a major role to play but I am struck by the quietness of Jon's story despite the extraordinary turn it just took, while Dany is yet again having thousands bow to her. 

Finally, "Promise Me Ned".  The Prince that was Promised.  

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

Just an observation here - but the show is quite heavy on using ALL of Dany's titles when she performs one of her special snowflake superpowers.  When she gets a new title, it is just added on.  Jon, one of the few human beings to have seen a WW and just been resurrected from the dead, has no titles other than his workplace one, Lord Commander (or at least until recently). 

This causes me to wonder that it seems we are beaten over the head with Dany, storm born, unburnt, mother of dragons blah blah blah yet Jon has none.  It brings a certain legitimacy to Dany and I contrast that to the very quiet rebirth of Jon Whoever.  We could be being deceived with the listing of titles by using the look over here, shiny things approach to Dany while Jon trudges on. It could be that we are being prepared for our savior (savior-ess?) Dany when all along it was the unassuming North dude.  

I write this as a viewer who likes both Jon and Dany and basically agree that they both have a major role to play but I am struck by the quietness of Jon's story despite the extraordinary turn it just took, while Dany is yet again having thousands bow to her. 

Finally, "Promise Me Ned".  The Prince that was Promised.  

Interesting point. 

I think there's 2 key differences between the 2 characters, that ends with the result you see:

1) The number of people each person's story has really touched. Dany has influenced hundreds of thousands across Slaver's Bay, has an entire city under her wing, and now has the entire Dothraki with her too. That's huge. Jon on the other hand, has had his story largely restricted to Castle Black and a portion of the Wildlings. Not nearly the same scale. Whereas Dany's legacy is currently widespread and massive, Jon's isn't all that much. Not yet, anyway.

2) Both of their ambitions: Dany very clearly is motivated by going west at some point to put in a claim for The Iron Throne. So, in that regard, she has to be loud and forceful and let everyone know who she is and why people should follow her. Jon on the other hand, doesn't have any of those ambitions. In fact, after his rebirth, he has no ambitions at all - he has no fight in him, and simply wants to waste away down South somewhere. 

 

I think those are the 2 main reasons why Dany's story is loud and boisterous and everlasting, whereas Jon's story feels smaller in scope and more contained. 

For now, anyway. Both Dany and Jon are very crucial to end game. 

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34 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Interesting point. 

I think there's 2 key differences between the 2 characters, that ends with the result you see:

1) The number of people each person's story has really touched. Dany has influenced hundreds of thousands across Slaver's Bay, has an entire city under her wing, and now has the entire Dothraki with her too. That's huge. Jon on the other hand, has had his story largely restricted to Castle Black and a portion of the Wildlings. Not nearly the same scale. Whereas Dany's legacy is currently widespread and massive, Jon's isn't all that much. Not yet, anyway.

2) Both of their ambitions: Dany very clearly is motivated by going west at some point to put in a claim for The Iron Throne. So, in that regard, she has to be loud and forceful and let everyone know who she is and why people should follow her. Jon on the other hand, doesn't have any of those ambitions. In fact, after his rebirth, he has no ambitions at all - he has no fight in him, and simply wants to waste away down South somewhere. 

 

I think those are the 2 main reasons why Dany's story is loud and boisterous and everlasting, whereas Jon's story feels smaller in scope and more contained. 

For now, anyway. Both Dany and Jon are very crucial to end game. 

I agree for the most part, but I would say that Jon has had an enormous (and largely unnoticed) impact on Westeros because of his actions with the Wildlings.  If not for his double agency, Mance's forces would have breeched the Wall and tens of thousands of Wildlings would have ravaged the entire North.

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10 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Just an observation here - but the show is quite heavy on using ALL of Dany's titles when she performs one of her special snowflake superpowers.  When she gets a new title, it is just added on.  Jon, one of the few human beings to have seen a WW and just been resurrected from the dead, has no titles other than his workplace one, Lord Commander (or at least until recently). 

This causes me to wonder that it seems we are beaten over the head with Dany, storm born, unburnt, mother of dragons blah blah blah yet Jon has none.  It brings a certain legitimacy to Dany and I contrast that to the very quiet rebirth of Jon Whoever.  We could be being deceived with the listing of titles by using the look over here, shiny things approach to Dany while Jon trudges on. It could be that we are being prepared for our savior (savior-ess?) Dany when all along it was the unassuming North dude.  

I write this as a viewer who likes both Jon and Dany and basically agree that they both have a major role to play but I am struck by the quietness of Jon's story despite the extraordinary turn it just took, while Dany is yet again having thousands bow to her. 

Finally, "Promise Me Ned".  The Prince that was Promised.  

One aspect might be which continents they're on. Westeros = Western Europe; Essos = Asia. As you can see from my username, I live in Cambodia. Just this week our prime minister has insisted that all media, whenever they mention him, have to use a ridiculously long series of titles just like Daenerys'. It's an Asian thing that Westerners poo-poo as pretentious.

 

Furthermore, it's my contention that you/we are all being deceived, and more deeply than is commonly understood. In other threads I'm working out a hypothesis to the effect that Daenerys truly is Azor Ahai, the messiah of the God of Light, R'hllor. Thing is, he's an evil god and AA is an anti-christ. Far from bringing forth life, R'hllor brings forth murderous shadowbabies - even Dany's stillborn was was such. R'hllor demands human sacrifice, the dragons are basically weapons of mass destruction. We're being lured into cheering for this person who started off as a sweet child-victim but is growing into a megalomaniac daughter of a mad king. She's going to turn out to be the Big Bad whom Jon with have to duke it out with to save the world. Jon, The Prince That Was Promised: yes, there are TWO prophesied figures that everyone (in the books and readers) mistakenly conflate into one.

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18 hours ago, sj4iy said:

I agree for the most part, but I would say that Jon has had an enormous (and largely unnoticed) impact on Westeros because of his actions with the Wildlings.  If not for his double agency, Mance's forces would have breeched the Wall and tens of thousands of Wildlings would have ravaged the entire North.

You aren't wrong at all.

However, still, most of Jon's story has been isolated to the North. 

Ie. You wouldn't expect people in Dorne or Highgarden to really know, or care, about Jon's been up to in the North.

Whereas news of Dany seems to be pretty much everywhere at this point. 

I do, of course, think that'll change soon enough - Jon's story seems intricately tied in with the threat of the White Walker army, and so his story will probably take far more prominence once that threat becomes more serious and ...

....

Spoiler

...when the wall eventually comes down

 

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1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

You aren't wrong at all.

However, still, most of Jon's story has been isolated to the North. 

Ie. You wouldn't expect people in Dorne or Highgarden to really know, or care, about Jon's been up to in the North.

Whereas news of Dany seems to be pretty much everywhere at this point. 

I do, of course, think that'll change soon enough - Jon's story seems intricately tied in with the threat of the White Walker army, and so his story will probably take far more prominence once that threat becomes more serious and ...

....

  Hide contents

...when the wall eventually comes down

 

Oh yeah, completely agreed.  His work has gone largely unnoticed, even by the people in the North.  Definitely a silent hero as opposed to Dany's antics which have made news across the narrow sea.  I agree that will change now that Jon is going to start his conquest to retake the North.  People in the South will definitely take notice after that, and it will probably be nearly too late before anyone takes the warnings about the White Walkers seriously.

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2 hours ago, sj4iy said:

Oh yeah, completely agreed.  His work has gone largely unnoticed, even by the people in the North.  Definitely a silent hero as opposed to Dany's antics which have made news across the narrow sea.  I agree that will change now that Jon is going to start his conquest to retake the North.  People in the South will definitely take notice after that, and it will probably be nearly too late before anyone takes the warnings about the White Walkers seriously.

Yep. 

I also kind of think that two people will end the Game of Thrones series as the "victors".

The person who WINS the Iron Throne. 

And then the person who defeats the Night's King / The Long Night. 

I think Jon is going to be integral to the NIght's King plot, and then someone else will be the person that sits the throne. 

Two main winners.

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1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

Yep. 

I also kind of think that two people will end the Game of Thrones series as the "victors".

The person who WINS the Iron Throne. 

And then the person who defeats the Night's King / The Long Night. 

I think Jon is going to be integral to the NIght's King plot, and then someone else will be the person that sits the throne. 

Two main winners.

I lean towards the idea that Jon will sit the Iron Throne (or whatever it is replaced with if it no longer exists at that point), but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't...or even if he died in the end battle.  I don't think Dany will stay in Westeros...there's so much she's left undone in Essos that it seems unlikely that she will leave that to go to hell to retake a country she knows nothing about.  But, again, it's just my thoughts, and I don't mind seeing things turn out differently.

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41 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

I don't think Dany will stay in Westeros...there's so much she's left undone in Essos that it seems unlikely that she will leave that to go to hell to retake a country she knows nothing about.  But, again, it's just my thoughts, and I don't mind seeing things turn out differently.

These are my expectations as well. Her house with the red door is in Essos, after all. That said, I'd be down with whatever is convincingly written. 

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On May 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, sj4iy said:

That's my thought, as well.  It seems like the perfect setup for Jon to meet with Howland Reed, and the show specifically introduced him by name in the ToJ flashback.

I do think that Jon is TPTWP, but I don't know if we've seen him fulfill the requirements yet.  Of course, requirements and titles mean nothing- action does.  And I would bet that after Jon retakes Winterfell, he's going to set his eyes on protecting the North from the incoming invasion.

In the show, I thought Jon fulfilled the prophecy of TPTWP in Hardhome.  He killed a WW with his Valyrian (read: hot) sword and kept the dark night/knight at bay. I think that somehow both Dany and Jon are TPTWP.  Aemon said that the Valyrian word describing the "prince" had no gender, perhaps its also a word that's the same singular and plural.

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4 hours ago, sj4iy said:

I lean towards the idea that Jon will sit the Iron Throne (or whatever it is replaced with if it no longer exists at that point), but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't...or even if he died in the end battle.  I don't think Dany will stay in Westeros...there's so much she's left undone in Essos that it seems unlikely that she will leave that to go to hell to retake a country she knows nothing about.  But, again, it's just my thoughts, and I don't mind seeing things turn out differently.

 

The whole scene with Dany at the end once again really reminded me that Dany is perhaps first and foremost a conqueror. I think Dany could very easily become an antagonist within Westeros. By the time she lands in Westeros there will practically be no opposition. It seems like the Tyrell's might be dead, and Cercei might destroy Kings Landing, the Riverlands are already destroyed. It is difficult to say what would happen in other places such as the Stormland, the Vale and the Westernlands, but I can't see much opposition from those corners.   

It will perhaps not go down to well, if Dany tries to invade Westeros with the Ironborn, Dothraki, dragons and perhaps the Dornish. With the way things are going Dany's only opposition will be from the North. The only thing that will perhaps stop full scale war with the North is the fact that Jon is related to Dany, and the approaching White Walker threat. Of course that also depends on if Dany believes that she and Jon is truly related, and what she will decide to do with that news. But I think they could very likely fight against each other at first. Then perhaps they could work together, at a later stage. 

It is interesting to see in which direction the characters have gone, and what type of experience they have gained. I think it is very obvious that Dany is a conqueror, all of her experiences always goes back to that idea. Jon's experiences with leadership is gearing him more towards a King in my opinion.

If both Dany and Jon survives I could see two different roads for them which would suit the experience they have been gaining throughout the series. Dany really does not know or understand Westeros, after conquering Westeros, I could see her deciding not to stay there. Perhaps she would rather leave Jon as the King. I could see Dany becoming an Empress. I could see her conquering and building up an empire, Westeros could still fall under her domain, but she could concentrate further on her quest of abolishing slavery. She could recreate something similar to Valyria. 

 

As for the prophesies, I like the idea that they have kept them so vague in the show. In the, inside the episode video, for episode 4, the director made an interesting comment about both Dany and Jon being reborn one from fire and one from ice. It seems as if all of these actions from Dany is always very flashy. While as has been stated in this thread, Jon's resurreccion was very low key. It seems like this has been done on purpose, for some reason. Jon also does not seem to have any interest in Melisandre or R'hllor after his resurrection. And it also seems as if the loss in confidence has made Melisandre quite wary of approaching or preaching to Jon about these prophecies.  I also find it interesting that it seem as if Jon has just woken up from a coma, he does not seem to be in the same condition as Berric Dondarion or Lady Stoneheart. He is breathing normally and he is still eating. 

I really hope we never truly know if this prophecy is true or not, prophesy is more important in how it influences the individual character.  

 

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On May 18, 2016 at 0:24 PM, sj4iy said:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but does the show ever actually use the AAR/TPTWP prophecies like the books?  Because I don't recall anything about 'star, salt, smoke, dragons' in the show.  Melisandre says:

"After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North...In the ancient books, it's written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer."

The show never connects 'bleeding stars' to the warrior, it connects it to the dead rising in the North.  It connects the 'burning sword' to the warrior, though, and calls it Lightbringer by name.  There's also nothing about 'salt' or 'smoke'.

Later, after the Battle of the Blackwater, Melisandre says this to Stannis:

"This war has just begun. It will last for years. Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear. And it will all be worth it because you are the Son of Fire. You are the Warrior of Light. You will sweep aside this pretender and that one. You will be King."

That also seems like a prophecy to me, but obviously not one that was in the books.  So are we attempting to connect these 'prophetic fulfillments' in the show to book prophecies which aren't applicable in this case?  Let me know if I've missed something, but if we are going to make the case that this person or that person needs to fulfill this or that, I think we shouldn't be judging the show characters by the book prophecies in general.

Melisandre did use the "salt and smoke" part of the prophesy in season 2. When Stannis and Renly meet on the hillside.

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42 minutes ago, Boudica said:

I really hope we never truly know if this prophecy is true or not, prophesy is more important in how it influences the individual character.  

 

That's important. We cannot know if the various gods are objectively real, only what the characters believe and how they respond.

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6 hours ago, GravyFace said:

Melisandre did use the "salt and smoke" part of the prophesy in season 2. When Stannis and Renly meet on the hillside.

You're right, I forgot.  Thanks :) But I find it interesting that the show never connects "bleeding star" directly to TPTWP.  Just salt, smoke and Lightbringer.

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I think that Dany is Azor Ahai and she and her dragons will fly to the Capital of the Land of Always Winter and burn the Nightsking with dragonflame.

But I also think that Jon is a Targ, and he may be seen as the 'hero' because I think he will lead all of Dany's military joined with the forces of Westeros and the Wildlings in a great army to support Dany and the Dragons. I also think he will find a sword that burns with flame.

 

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On 5/19/2016 at 4:02 AM, House Cambodia said:

Furthermore, it's my contention that you/we are all being deceived, and more deeply than is commonly understood. In other threads I'm working out a hypothesis to the effect that Daenerys truly is Azor Ahai, the messiah of the God of Light, R'hllor. Thing is, he's an evil god and AA is an anti-christ. Far from bringing forth life, R'hllor brings forth murderous shadowbabies - even Dany's stillborn was was such. R'hllor demands human sacrifice, the dragons are basically weapons of mass destruction. We're being lured into cheering for this person who started off as a sweet child-victim but is growing into a megalomaniac daughter of a mad king. She's going to turn out to be the Big Bad whom Jon with have to duke it out with to save the world. Jon, The Prince That Was Promised: yes, there are TWO prophesied figures that everyone (in the books and readers) mistakenly conflate into one.

I suspect you're right about this. We've been beat over the head with the supernatural element to Dany's story to the point where the viewer/reader is expecting her to play a heroic role in the series' end game. If she is in fact the hero of the story it would be so utterly predictable as to make for bad writing.

I'm with you. I think we're being tricked into rooting for the bad guy. We've somehow turned a blind eye to her wholesale slaughter of potentially innocent Masters (some crucified, one fed to the dragons). We cheered when she murdered the Dothraki khals - by burning them alive, no less. We've missed some of the hints. For example, Barriston Selmy cautioning her about the madness of her father.

Jon is the ultimate hero in this story. After dispatching the Others (the Ice), he'll have to turn his attention to Dany (the Fire) to save the realm. The only way it will be possible for Snow to overcome Dany in the end is that she will be betrayed by three of her supporters... "the three treasons you will know." Someone will have to pull a Jaime Lannister on her.

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On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 11:27 PM, Masha said:

Here is a question I have. Does show EVER mentions Azor Azai? I know in the books its used interchangeably but in the show, I only every heard about TPtwP. Also the show never mentioned the requirements other than some miracle / Mel's proclamation.

Don't know about the show, but in the books it looks likely that Azor Azai and TPtwP are two different people, and one of them is Dany and another is Jon, just not clear which. In the show, its the question between Jon and Dany who is real TPtwP

 

 

 

 

I don't see AAR and TPTWP being two different characters,I think it's the same person referred to with two different names...

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9 minutes ago, Guerì said:

I don't see AAR and TPTWP being two different characters,I think it's the same person referred to with two different names...

That's what every character in the books/show believe, and just about every reader/viewer too. I think it's a trick that GRRM is playing on us. I'll repeat my position: Daenerys is Azor Ahai, messiah of R'hllor. She is the ANTICHRIST. Jon is TPTWP/Last Hero who will be her antagonist.

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  • 3 months later...
On 5/18/2016 at 6:47 AM, sj4iy said:

They mean nothing because people will interpret them however they want to, anyway.  Some people don't see Dany's dragons as Lightbringer- others don't see the bleeding star with Jon (in the books) because it wasn't a star; etc etc etc.  Basically, prophecies are up to interpretation.  Even here, where people pick and choose what they want about the prophecies in favor of the person of they want to support.

But what WILL be important is what people do and what they do against the White Walkers.  In the end, that's all that is important.  Who cares if this person fulfilled this requirement or that person fulfilled that requirement...at this point, all I care about is 'will this person take up the fight for humanity?'  Both of them will, undoubtedly.  And both of them will have followers who believe they are gods, as we already have seen.  So both will probably be called the same title at some point or another...and it won't matter in the end.

Think meataphorically. Dawn was forged from a meteorite, or a falling star if you will, and it was covered in blood. Thus Jon could been born under a bleeding star. I also specifically recall everyone referring to the red star as a comet.

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