The Prince That Was Promised

[sj4iy]

51 minutes ago, Masha said:

 

I don't know her criteria on identifying someone as TPtwP other than seeing a person with armies in the fire, but I am pretty sure that she decided on Jon because Lord of Light brought him back when she knew she had no power to do so.

 

Here is a question I have. Does show EVER mentions Azor Azai? I know in the books its used interchangeably but in the show, I only every heard about TPtwP. Also the show never mentioned the requirements other than some miracle / Mel's proclamation.

Don't know about the show, but in the books it looks likely that Azor Azai and TPtwP are two different people, and one of them is Dany and another is Jon, just not clear which. In the show, its the question between Jon and Dany who is real TPtwP

 

 

 

 

No, but to me it's clear that the titles are interchangeable.  The show never uses the name Azor Ahai, but it doesn't really matter.  They are both talking about a savior who will defeat the White Walkers.  Which is why I think the prophecy and how people interpret the requirements mean nothing in the end- all that matters is that people fight for humanity's survival.

[TickTak7]

6 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

No, but to me it's clear that the titles are interchangeable.  The show never uses the name Azor Ahai, but it doesn't really matter.  They are both talking about a savior who will defeat the White Walkers.  Which is why I think the prophecy and how people interpret the requirements mean nothing in the end- all that matters is that people fight for humanity's survival.

The show actually is actively trying NOT to use the term Azor Ahai - I went back and watched Meli's first scene with Stannis on the beach as I was sure that was where she said it, but she actually just used "Prince that was Promised" there as well. 

If we do get literal reference to Azor Ahai though, it'll be with the new Red Priestess in Mereen - maybe she's explaining the same prophecy to Team Tyrion?

[sj4iy]

1 hour ago, TickTak7 said:

The show actually is actively trying NOT to use the term Azor Ahai - I went back and watched Meli's first scene with Stannis on the beach as I was sure that was where she said it, but she actually just used "Prince that was Promised" there as well. 

If we do get literal reference to Azor Ahai though, it'll be with the new Red Priestess in Mereen - maybe she's explaining the same prophecy to Team Tyrion?

Correct...they are not using it because they don't want to confuse viewers with multiple names for the same prophecy.  They've streamlined 99% of the prophecies from the book into the handful that actually matter to the show:  The Prince that was Promised, Lightbringer, The Stallion that Mounts the World and Cersei's children being the few that have been mentioned by name.  Even in the books, AAR and TPTWP are used interchangeably...so there's no reason for the show to use both terms when one will do.  I doubt the priestess in Meereen will use AAR.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 5/17/2016 at 9:37 PM, WalkinDude said:

So with Melisandre referring to Jon as TPTWP, does that give us our reveal on how Jon will find out he's the son of Rhaegar? 

 

It's pretty certain Bran will learn through a weir wood memory, but that would never leave Bran's circle. With Melissandre revealing it, it comes with a kind of certainty versus the idea Bran will whisper it to Jon by a weir wood. 

According to Leaf and Bloodraven, Bran is going to eventually leave the tree, remember? He can tell Jon in person.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

Both can be right at the same time. People forget that the WW have attacked from two directions last time. From the north of Westeros and the east side of Essos. There is a wall made of towers 1000 feet high guarding that part of their world, with a chain of mountains and a sea guarding the flanks.

 

That, and "the dragon has three heads".

[Drogonthedread]

9 hours ago, Masha said:

 

I don't know her criteria on identifying someone as TPtwP other than seeing a person with armies in the fire, but I am pretty sure that she decided on Jon because Lord of Light brought him back when she knew she had no power to do so.

 

Here is a question I have. Does show EVER mentions Azor Azai? I know in the books its used interchangeably but in the show, I only every heard about TPtwP. Also the show never mentioned the requirements other than some miracle / Mel's proclamation.

Don't know about the show, but in the books it looks likely that Azor Azai and TPtwP are two different people, and one of them is Dany and another is Jon, just not clear which. In the show, its the question between Jon and Dany who is real TPtwP

 

 

 

 

Not really even in the books AAR and TPTWP is used interchangeably..

 

Next week we will be having red priestess in meereen who will claim dany as the one who is promised ( so basically combining AAR,TPTWp and TSWmTW all into one ) ..

I hope she goes on the details of prophecy unlike mel who keeps fooling herself and never learns ...she knows jon is not the first one to come back and she also knows he didn't fulfill any prophecies .. But still start to claim him because someone has to be .it shows she never learned from stannis mistake 

[Drogonthedread]

8 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

The show actually is actively trying NOT to use the term Azor Ahai - I went back and watched Meli's first scene with Stannis on the beach as I was sure that was where she said it, but she actually just used "Prince that was Promised" there as well. 

If we do get literal reference to Azor Ahai though, it'll be with the new Red Priestess in Mereen - maybe she's explaining the same prophecy to Team Tyrion?

She will be using the term THE One Who Was Promised...thus uniting dragon has three heads( AAr,TPTWP,TsWMTW all three different versions of same prophecy ) into one 

[Drogonthedread]

17 hours ago, sj4iy said:

That's my thought, as well.  It seems like the perfect setup for Jon to meet with Howland Reed, and the show specifically introduced him by name in the ToJ flashback.

I do think that Jon is TPTWP, but I don't know if we've seen him fulfill the requirements yet.  Of course, requirements and titles mean nothing- action does.  And I would bet that after Jon retakes Winterfell, he's going to set his eyes on protecting the North from the incoming invasion

 

 

Hmm so now the requirements and titles mean nothing LOL.

[Smoke317]

Mel doesn't know shit. If I was Jon, I'd tell that bitch to fuck off with TPTWP bullshit. The last guy she hyped up for that title, she convinced him to burn people alive, use shadow magic to kill his little brother, was gonna kill his nephew, then had him burn his daughter alive. Then when the shit hit the fan, she turned tail and ran. So going by this, she'll convince Jon to kill Sansa, Bran, and Rickon for Winterfell. Then when the shit hits the fan and these sacrifices causes his loyal followers to abandon him, the wall to fall, and here comes the white walkers, she'll magically find a horse and sneak out the back door to leave Jon good as dead. Then she'll show up at Kings Landing and tell Dany that she's the princess who was promised. And she'll finally be right. Guess third time will be the charm huh???  Pass on that bs Jon. Dany is TPTWP. She's the one who awakened dragons from stone. She's the one who literally reached in the fire and pulled out the flaming sword (dragons).  She was the one that had all of this happen under the prophecized comet that was there when Mel was first introduced in the show burning shit and coincidentally had Stannis pull the fake sword out.  Hmm...  Could it be any clearer???   Mel is more wrong than right.  Time for her to pay for what she did to Shireen and many others and let the new red priestess in Mereen get TPTWP prophecy right because I sure wouldn't trust Mel's track record. Only time will tell if the new priestess has a better success rate or if she's just as bat shit crazy as Mel.  Anyway, the prophecy was that an offspring from the line of Aerys and his wife would be the chosen one. Dany being Rhaegar's sister is of that line.  So she can be the chosen one. And since dragons are asexual the "prince" could be a "princess"...  Rhaegar had it wrong. But that's ok. Jon may not be the promised prince but he will be the Sword of the Morning who will wield Dawn and fight the others during the long night/winter.  He may not wield Dawn in the show (I hope he does) but he will in the books. The show may just combine the prophecies and allow both Jon and Dany to be a combined TPTWP where Jon carries the sword and Dany provides the dragons. Now for that 3rd dragon head...  I'm at a loss for the show. Books have a few possible candidates. The show may just drop the 3 Targaryen dragon heads and just make em 3 dragon riders...

[Lemore]

12 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I can see her doing just that. There must be a reason, why she's still wandering around. Maybe she has some sort of deal with the Red God? Like "you won't die until you see Azor Ahai reborn with your ow eyes".

I don't think she feels bad for killing Shireen for no reason in the end. Or for pushing Stannis on the path, that ultimately lead to his death. I think the only thing she cares about is the fulfillment of the prophecy. And if some people die because she was wrong? - that's just collateral. But I think the fact she was wrong upset her deeply - but that's more about her mistake than its deadly consequences.

I've never heard this theory and I love it. If the books will go for it, then it justifies this ginormous, long-drawn and moving at a glacial pace plot - especially book-wise. If in the end it's all about Westeros, then all the time spent in Essos is a bit of a waste. Entire "training to be a Queen" plot is a bit pointless - she could learn as she conquered Westeros with her army of Unsullied and with possible Dornish support (thank Old Gods and the New, that show killed off Dornish plot for now - hopefully forever). This "training" isn't actually that helpful since Westeros has very different social dynamic than Essos - which Tyrion will find soon enough, I feel.

mmm you're probably right but I did definitely get the impression that she was feeling dejected for getting it wrong and that's why she wasn't over enthused about switching to Jon as TPTWP, maybe she's afraid that she's got it wrong again

[House Cambodia]

11 hours ago, Masha said:

Don't know about the show, but in the books it looks likely that Azor Azai and TPtwP are two different people, and one of them is Dany and another is Jon, just not clear which. In the show, its the question between Jon and Dany who is real TPtwP

You know what, I've been thinking this through and I've decided you're right. I've looked through the book references and all the characters assume TPTWP and AA are the same person: they're not. Poor Maester Aemon at the end of his life got terribly befuddled, and that was a shame because he was in a unique position to work it out, being a Targaryen who spent his life at the Wall - that achievement will now fall to Sam, once he grows a maester's beard and looks a dead ringer for GRRM 

So what's the truth? Azor Ahai is indeed the messiah of R'hllor. His acolyte the new Red Priestess has it right - that is none other than Daenerys. Melisandre - my god she's outdone herself - she's just got it so right - and got it so wrong. Yes, Jon is TPTWP, but TPTWP is not Azor Ahai. Mel worships R'hllor, The Lord of Light. In this dualistic cosmology, who is R'hllor's antagonist, or anti-god? They refer to him as 'The Great Other'. The god of The Others, the book name for the White Walkers. Yes, I'm saying Jon is the saviour of the god of the WWs. 

We're being set up for a grand finale - Messiahbowl, Jon vs Dany. Dany will turn out to be the Big Bad and the WWs the good guys. 'Messiahbowl' - you heard it here first!!!!  

 

It is a problem that the show has fudged the messiahs so far, and left out a lot of backstory, but my ideas are so fundamental to the endgame, if I'm right, a basic version will have to become apparent in the show eventually.

[for further details of my crackpot theory, see posts I've dropped in a couple of threads earlier today]

[sj4iy]

4 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

Hmm so now the requirements and titles mean nothing LOL.

They mean nothing because people will interpret them however they want to, anyway.  Some people don't see Dany's dragons as Lightbringer- others don't see the bleeding star with Jon (in the books) because it wasn't a star; etc etc etc.  Basically, prophecies are up to interpretation.  Even here, where people pick and choose what they want about the prophecies in favor of the person of they want to support.

But what WILL be important is what people do and what they do against the White Walkers.  In the end, that's all that is important.  Who cares if this person fulfilled this requirement or that person fulfilled that requirement...at this point, all I care about is 'will this person take up the fight for humanity?'  Both of them will, undoubtedly.  And both of them will have followers who believe they are gods, as we already have seen.  So both will probably be called the same title at some point or another...and it won't matter in the end.

[Drogonthedread]

1 hour ago, sj4iy said:

They mean nothing because people will interpret them however they want to, anyway.  Some people don't see Dany's dragons as Lightbringer- others don't see the bleeding star with Jon (in the books) because it wasn't a star; etc etc etc.  Basically, prophecies are up to interpretation.  Even here, where people pick and choose what they want about the prophecies in favor of the person of they want to support.

But what WILL be important is what people do and what they do against the White Walkers.  In the end, that's all that is important.  Who cares if this person fulfilled this requirement or that person fulfilled that requirement...at this point, all I care about is 'will this person take up the fight for humanity?'  Both of them will, undoubtedly.  And both of them will have followers who believe they are gods, as we already have seen.  So both will probably be called the same title at some point or another...and it won't matter in the end.

I mean i find the timing you start to claim this as interesting ..denial perhaps 

 The thing about dany is it fits with all which means likely to be true 

There exists more theory about jon because one can't come up with more sensible way ...they think its him and then go making fit him into it ..

Of course it matters ..the one who fulfill the requirement will also do what they have to do ..it will be their destiny ..and another reason why it matters is out of two who have given the title one has fulfilled the requirement naratively while the other did not and only doing in the fan theories . 

And that does not mean others like Jon bran and others will not be playing their role in it 

[sandpiper]

On 17/05/2016 at 1:42 PM, sj4iy said:

That's my thought, as well.  It seems like the perfect setup for Jon to meet with Howland Reed, and the show specifically introduced him by name in the ToJ flashback.

Now you mention it, yes, that sounds eminently logical and set up nicely.

15 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I can see her doing just that. There must be a reason, why she's still wandering around. Maybe she has some sort of deal with the Red God? Like "you won't die until you see Azor Ahai reborn with your ow eyes".

I don't think she feels bad for killing Shireen for no reason in the end. Or for pushing Stannis on the path, that ultimately lead to his death. I think the only thing she cares about is the fulfillment of the prophecy. And if some people die because she was wrong? - that's just collateral. But I think the fact she was wrong upset her deeply - but that's more about her mistake than its deadly consequences.

I was only half serious, but if we consider her as a priestess who had discovered the prophecy and become completely obsessed by it, she could well have spent her rather long life seeking people who might fulfill it. And you are right, there may be more background to this. Certainly Rhaegar and master aemon were very interested in the prohecy. I dont know how old it is. She could well be upset because she thought she finally had it solved, and then found she did not. She is probably missing key facts about Jon, which she may now discover if she tags along.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, sj4iy said:

They mean nothing because people will interpret them however they want to, anyway.  Some people don't see Dany's dragons as Lightbringer- others don't see the bleeding star with Jon (in the books) because it wasn't a star; etc etc etc.  Basically, prophecies are up to interpretation.  Even here, where people pick and choose what they want about the prophecies in favor of the person of they want to support.

But what WILL be important is what people do and what they do against the White Walkers.  In the end, that's all that is important.  Who cares if this person fulfilled this requirement or that person fulfilled that requirement...at this point, all I care about is 'will this person take up the fight for humanity?'  Both of them will, undoubtedly.  And both of them will have followers who believe they are gods, as we already have seen.  So both will probably be called the same title at some point or another...and it won't matter in the end.

Well said.

[Drogonthedread]

33 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Well said.

I would have said well said too if she had been saying that from before Jon got resurrected but she is only changing that now because Jon is resurrected and not fulfilled the requirement.

[Smoke317]

Mel is such a fanatic that she is trying to force things to be true rather than accepting that she herself is truly powerless and its R'hllor who has the true power.  She explained to Selyse in the tub scene her tricks of the trade. All parlor tricks...  Her greatest and purest act (resurrecting Jon) came when she dropped the know it all bullshitter routine and simply begged R'hllor "Please".  What really would have been awesome is if she had to remove her own glamour and was forced to do the resurrection and "please" in her true form in order for it to work.  But now she's ready to try and force TPTWP prophecy on Jon which if he bought into it, it would lead to his demise just like it led to Stannis'. Don't do it Jon

[Drogonthedread]

27 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Mel is such a fanatic that she is trying to force things to be true rather than accepting that she herself is truly powerless and its R'hllor who has the true power.  She explained to Selyse in the tub scene her tricks of the trade. All parlor tricks...  Her greatest and purest act (resurrecting Jon) came when she dropped the know it all bullshitter routine and simply begged R'hllor "Please".  What really would have been awesome is if she had to remove her own glamour and was forced to do the resurrection and "please" in her true form in order for it to work.  But now she's ready to try and force TPTWP prophecy on Jon which if he bought into it, it would lead to his demise just like it led to Stannis'. Don't do it Jon

Exactly 

[sj4iy]

6 hours ago, Drogonthedread said:

I mean i find the timing you start to claim this as interesting ..denial perhaps 

 The thing about dany is it fits with all which means likely to be true 

There exists more theory about jon because one can't come up with more sensible way ...they think its him and then go making fit him into it ..

Of course it matters ..the one who fulfill the requirement will also do what they have to do ..it will be their destiny ..and another reason why it matters is out of two who have given the title one has fulfilled the requirement naratively while the other did not and only doing in the fan theories . 

And that does not mean others like Jon bran and others will not be playing their role in it 

Uh, no, there's no denial.  It's just that at this point I don't really care...I just want them to get on with the story.  I still expect Jon to fulfill the requirements (we haven't seen his birth yet, and he very clearly fulfilled the requirements in the books and was heavily hinted at in the books as such), and saying that Melisandre is 'less credible' than the other red priest or priestess who proclaims the same about Dany is rather ridiculous, in my mind.  They are simply saying 'this person is it!' because they've seen something with their own eyes.  They don't know about the other characters, so of course they aren't going to proclaim the same about them.  If you want to get into picking apart the prophecies and who fulfills what, I could simply come back with "Dragons aren't a sword" and it would an endless cycle of argue, rinse, repeat.

You seem intent on saying that I'm denying that Jon is AAR- I'm definitely not doing that.  And Melisandre isn't 'forcing' Jon to follow the prophecy, because she clearly didn't think he would come back when she attempted to bring him back.  She had already 'chosen' Stannis as her messiah and then worked the prophecy around him...that is not what's going on with Jon, nor does it seem like Jon really gives a crap about prophecies at this point.  He's reluctantly fighting to save his family...he's most definitely not going on a crusade to become king or a messiah.  So the argument that she is 'forcing' him into the prophecy makes no sense.

I'm not so sure it's clearcut that it's one character at this point, and that's fine with me...because for the past five years, this same argument has gone back and forth with the same information from the books.  But now, we have more information from the show, which means the story has finally progressed and now we can actually move on from the same arguments using the same information.  Again, pick who you want, deny who you want, it won't matter in the end who fulfilled what or when or how, because both will be instrumental in the War for the Dawn and I don't see Jon or Dany being 'less' important than the other when it comes to that war.

[sj4iy]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but does the show ever actually use the AAR/TPTWP prophecies like the books?  Because I don't recall anything about 'star, salt, smoke, dragons' in the show.  Melisandre says:

"After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North...In the ancient books, it's written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer."

The show never connects 'bleeding stars' to the warrior, it connects it to the dead rising in the North.  It connects the 'burning sword' to the warrior, though, and calls it Lightbringer by name.  There's also nothing about 'salt' or 'smoke'.

Later, after the Battle of the Blackwater, Melisandre says this to Stannis:

"This war has just begun. It will last for years. Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you. You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear. And it will all be worth it because you are the Son of Fire. You are the Warrior of Light. You will sweep aside this pretender and that one. You will be King."

That also seems like a prophecy to me, but obviously not one that was in the books.  So are we attempting to connect these 'prophetic fulfillments' in the show to book prophecies which aren't applicable in this case?  Let me know if I've missed something, but if we are going to make the case that this person or that person needs to fulfill this or that, I think we shouldn't be judging the show characters by the book prophecies in general.