Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Free Northman Reborn

What's going on with the Glovers?

Recommended Posts

So in the intrigue, action and chaos of the greater Northern plot, I have only now spent some time really considering the current situation of House Glover. Currently, Lady Glover is holding Deepwood Motte. But we know that Robett Glover, the younger brother of the Master of Deepwood, is in White Harbor raising men.

But this is where it gets quite strange if one thinks about it. Why is Robett Glover doing all of the campaigning, lobbying and organizing for House Glover? This while the head of House Glover is not dead, but is chilling somewhere in the Neck with Howland Reed and Maege Mormont. This gets more peculiar when one considers that the textual evidence does not give any hint that either Lady Glover, or Robett Glover - or the surviving ladies of House Mormont for that matter - have any indication about the current whereabouts of the heads of Houses Glover and Mormont. So either they don't know, or they are deliberately not talking about it.

Other than the very unlikely event that these two heads of prominent Northern Noble Houses simply died obscure off-screen deaths when a lizard lion capsized their boat and ate them in the swamps of the Neck, is there any non-Northern Conspiracy explanation that makes sense when it comes to what is going on here?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some reason I'm more concerned that the two glover kids are hostages on the Iron islands. I hope GRRM takes the time to tell us if they ever make it back home.

 

But to answer your question, I have no doubt that the Glover brothers are in contact with each other and are working on the same plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea I think they have some contact or maybe Galbart told Robett what he wanted him to do before they departed. The whole thing of being in the Neck is quite weird. I reckon the remaining Stark loyalists in the Neck will bypass Moat Cailin with the help of the crannogmen, join up with Robett's and Manderly troops from White Harbour and possibly march on Winterfell with Rickon?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robett Glover also completely disappears after the last Davos chapter. He isn't mentioned again and did apparently not accompany Lord Wyman to Winterfell. One possibility is that he stayed back with Ser Wylis Manderly and his daughters but the other possibility is that we are going to meet him again in the next Davos chapter as companion of Davos on his journey to Skagos.

Davos is in need of at least one Northman who can help him get around on Skagos, not to mention that he has to be able to convince Osha/Rickon and whatever Skagosi they hang out with he is actually not an enemy but an envoy of Lord Manderly and Stannis Baratheon (the latter he should be able to prove but the former would be difficult if he had no companion).

And - who knows - perhaps Wylla Manderly is with them, too.

As to Galbart and Maege - I don't think they are up to anything. If they had a plan they would already have done something. I mean, the crannogmen would have been able to attack Roose's army while crossing the Neck, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robett Glover also completely disappears after the last Davos chapter. He isn't mentioned again and did apparently not accompany Lord Wyman to Winterfell. One possibility is that he stayed back with Ser Wylis Manderly and his daughters but the other possibility is that we are going to meet him again in the next Davos chapter as companion of Davos on his journey to Skagos.

Davos is in need of at least one Northman who can help him get around on Skagos, not to mention that he has to be able to convince Osha/Rickon and whatever Skagosi they hang out with he is actually not an enemy but an envcomoy of Lord Manderly and Stannis Baratheon (the latter he should be able to prove but the former would be difficult if he had no companion).

And - who knows - perhaps Wylla Manderly is with them, too.

As to Galbart and Maege - I don't think they are up to anything. If they had a plan they would already have done something. I mean, the crannogmen would have been able to attack Roose's army while crossing the Neck, right?

Lord Varys

Interesting points about Robett maybe accompanying Davos. I don't discount that possibility, although he might as well be with Manderly's army somewhere up the White Knife, for all we know.

Anyway regarding the main issue, and the option of the Crannogmen attacking Roose in the Neck.   Ramsay holds the North and Moat Cailin, the Lannisters and Freys support him, and the Ryswells, Dustins and others have joined with the Boltons. Dealing some damage to Roose on the causeway hardly serves their plan if they need a Stark to take back Winterfell, and that Stark is not available yet?

If Maege and Gallbart are alive, then it is mind boggling that they have not been in contact with their kin, or made their way back to the North. Gallbart's wife and children are hostage of the Ironborn. And Bear Island is being led by a 10 year old girl, by the sounds of it, with a Wildling army on its doorstep.

Gallbart and Maege would have had every motivation to make haste to get back home. Instead, they just go to ground and disappear from the radar. This is not logical behaviour.  What non-conspiracy related explanation is there for this behaviour?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its safe to say they're up to something.  For one thing, I believe those two are the only ones left alive who know the contents of Robb's will firsthand.  For another, Hal Mollen and his retinue who were transporting Ned's bones have also disappeared; I'd be willing to bet they were intercepted by the crannogmen as well, as Greywater Watch may be the safest place to hold those relics for now.  It may be that they're preparing to join the Brotherhood to infiltrate Riverrun; it may be that they're simply raising men to storm Winterfell when the time is right, and coordinating with Robett and Wyman accordingly.

Lastly, we know Howland Reed will be appearing.  We also know that he is the only one alive who knows Jon's parents.  Ergo, the plot requires him to pass that information to Jon.  Jon has no real reason to go seek him out, and Howland has no real reason to go North (he's not exactly a fighter); the most likely scenario is that the northern rebels at Greywater decide they need to head to the wall to convince Jon to join them, and Howland goes along to give Jon that info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe they think Roose is looking for them since they might think he knows that they possesses Robbs will and want to stay out of radar until the time is right? If Roose would find and torture them, they are not only risking their family and seat, but will paint a big, fat target on the Reeds? So they stay put, keeping their head low until they know someone else works against the Boltons too - you don´t get that much news in the swamp and on paper and in theory it seems the North has fallen in line behind the Boltons. Maybe they heard of Manderleys "submission" to the Freys and the Crown and maybe the conspiracy against the Boltons are too loose, too small and too disorganized compared with what some fans think?

In short - they can´t trust anyone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

I think its safe to say they're up to something.  For one thing, I believe those two are the only ones left alive who know the contents of Robb's will firsthand.  For another, Hal Mollen and his retinue who were transporting Ned's bones have also disappeared; I'd be willing to bet they were intercepted by the crannogmen as well, as Greywater Watch may be the safest place to hold those relics for now.  It may be that they're preparing to join the Brotherhood to infiltrate Riverrun; it may be that they're simply raising men to storm Winterfell when the time is right, and coordinating with Robett and Wyman accordingly.

Lastly, we know Howland Reed will be appearing.  We also know that he is the only one alive who knows Jon's parents.  Ergo, the plot requires him to pass that information to Jon.  Jon has no real reason to go seek him out, and Howland has no real reason to go North (he's not exactly a fighter); the most likely scenario is that the northern rebels at Greywater decide they need to head to the wall to convince Jon to join them, and Howland goes along to give Jon that info.

Going to the Wall could have been done long ago. If those people are all somehow in conversation with their people in the North or elsewhere then it is very strange that they did not popularize Robb Stark's last will - after all, that could have made the installation of 'Arya Stark' as Lady of Winterfell much more difficult if not all but impossible, don't you think.

If Robb's will actually disowned Sansa and Arya and named Jon Snow his heir then this would have carried some weight with quite a few anti-Bolton people.

As to the contents - we only know that a few lords (both Riverlords and Northern Lords) affixed their seals to Robb's will. We don't actually know whether he ever read it to them. Or do we? I don't remember. A similar situation would be Robert's last will which was dictated by him, written down (and manipulated) by Eddard Stark, and subsequently sealed in front of witnesses including Pycelle, Selmy, and Renly, I think. But neither of those men actually knew the contents of the will - those were only publicly revealed after the seal was broken and the letter read aloud at court.

George himself has remarked that it is not clear to us, the readers, what Robb's will actually contains. Meaning whether he actually named Jon Snow his heir, legitimized him as a Stark, etc. We know that he discussed this option with his mother in that chapter, but what he actually did was left deliberately obscure by the author. Most likely for a reason. I'd be surprised if it turned out to be exactly as the chapter seemed to imply - if that was the case then we could actually have learned the contents of the will back in ASoS...

I'm not really inclined to believe that Howland Reed will condone or participate in any plans revolving any decrees or wills legitimizing Jon Snow as Eddard Stark's son. He knows the truth, and might not allow Ned's lie to take even deeper roots than it already has.

And, actually, Howland Reed is completely unnecessary for the revelation of the whole Jon Snow mystery. We know that Jon Snow is supposed to find out the truth about his parents eventually, but there is no reason to believe this has to happen soon or via Howland Reed. The Daynes know stuff, too, and Wylla might still live with them, after all. And as it happens Areo Hotah might soon interact with some Daynes, and possibly even go to Starfall (or talk to people who once lived there). I'm pretty sure the first relevant pieces of information solving the puzzle for the reader (in the usual non-direct George way comparable to the Tansy mystery in ASoS) will come from Hotah's chapters in TWoW.

I agree that Hallis Mollen was (also?) forced by Howland Reed to stay indefinitely as his guest, perhaps even against his will (back then Winterfell had not yet fallen, after all). And if I had to guess then Howland Reed has other things on his mind that a Stark restoration or participating in Stark wars. If that had been the case he would have joined with Robb on his way down south. Instead all he did was sending his son and daughter to Bran. Howland is preoccupied with stuff involving the coming fight against the Others. 

6 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Maybe they think Roose is looking for them since they might think/know that they possesses Robbs will and want to stay out of radar until the time is right? If Roose would find and torture them, they are not only risking their family and seat, but will paint a fat, big target on the Reeds? So they stay put, keeping their head low until they know someone else works against the Boltons too - you don´t get that much news in the swamp and on paper and in theory it seems the North has fallen in line behind the Boltons. Maybe they heard of Manderleys "submission" to the Freys and the Crown and maybe the conspiracy against the Boltons are too loose, too small and too disorganized compared with what some fans think?

In short - they can´t trust anyone. 

There is already a big target on the Reeds, anyway. Or why else do you think Roose took precautions to ensure that he isn't killed by poisoned dart?

@Free Northman Reborn

There is no army up the White Knife we know of. Perhaps there are some ships, but Manderly has no reason whatsoever to man those ships unless he intends to dispatch his entire navy in the near future. Not to mention that doesn't even seem to have really good sailors. Else he wouldn't need Davos at all, right? He even says as much himself.

Well, all of Roose's men were complicit in the Red Wedding and the crannogmen happen to have no hostages of their own at the Twins. I don't see any reason why they should not try to attack them to avenge Robb and the dead at the Red Wedding - not to mention that a lucky poison dart killing Roose certainly could have made a lot of things easier. Either they lacked the strength or they have other plans.

By the way, Galbart Glover is unwed. Lady Sybelle is the wife of Robett Glover who happens to be the heir to Deepwood.

Lyanna Mormont may have written that letter to Stannis, but that doesn't mean she is in charge of Bear Island right now. At least not alone. Alysane may have just been out fishing or something like that. Not to mention that it might have been a sign of contempt directed at Stannis to have the little girl answer the letter of this self-proclaimed pretender to the Iron Throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is already a big target on the Reeds, anyway. Or why else do you think Roose took precautions to ensure that he isn't killed by poisoned dart?

 

Is there? I saw that more as Roose being careful around territory that belongs to a extra loyal Stark supporter and not as a known enemy he knows wants him dead. Otherwise, why not hire a boat for you and your most loyal troops while the rest take the road. Lack of trust doesnt need to mean suspection of "treason"

I think the Reeds too want to avoid drawing attention to them. In theory - a joint Crown-Bolton attack could be bad for them and I don´t think they know how strong the Boltons position actually is. They havn´t aligned with the Boltons, but they havn´t spoken or acted against him either. Remember - no poisoned dart hit the fake Roose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general, just because two people conspire against the same target doesn´t mean they work together or are even aware of the other´s scheming. For me, this is where GNC fail for me - the coordination. This is not the age of cell phones and no one wants to be exposed so they hide their plans even for possible friends in order to stay safe. 

I don´t think Howland, Maege and Robett are aware Wyman is up to something. And vice versa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As to the contents - we only know that a few lords (both Riverlords and Northern Lords) affixed their seals to Robb's will. We don't actually know whether he ever read it to them. Or do we? I don't remember. A similar situation would be Robert's last will which was dictated by him, written down (and manipulated) by Eddard Stark, and subsequently sealed in front of witnesses including Pycelle, Selmy, and Renly, I think. But neither of those men actually knew the contents of the will - those were only publicly revealed after the seal was broken and the letter read aloud at court.

This SSM from 2000 suggests to me that Robb's witnesses are aware of the contents, at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

This SSM from 2000 suggests to me that Robb's witnesses are aware of the contents, at least.

Very nice.  Jason Mallister is now a prisoner in his own castle, currently being held by Black Walder.  So that makes 3 Frey prisoners in the Riverlands who know the heir - Jason Mallister at Seaguard, Edmure at Riverrun, and the Greatjon at the Twins - along with Maege and Galbart (presumably) at Greyguard.  

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Going to the Wall could have been done long ago. If those people are all somehow in conversation with their people in the North or elsewhere then it is very strange that they did not popularize Robb Stark's last will - after all, that could have made the installation of 'Arya Stark' as Lady of Winterfell much more difficult if not all but impossible, don't you think.

I disagree.  It took Janos Slynt an entire book to get from King's Landing to the wall on main roads.  It took Bran & co all of ASOS to get from Winterfell to the Nightfort avoiding the main roads. Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell left for the wall from Riverrun in AFFC, and still have not arrived.  Getting from Greywater to the wall while avoiding Boltons and Freys along the way is not as simple or direct as we'd like to think.

There is no reason for the conspirators to popularize Robb's will - in fact its better that they don't.  They have no clue that Jon has an army; making known to their enemies that Jon was named as Robb's heir would put him in danger.  Besides, the Bolton's deal with the IC and the Riverlands' capitulation means that no one is left to claim Robb's legitimacy as King, and, thus, Jon is still a bastard, unless and until the conspirators were to fight for and win independence in Robb's name.

As for "Arya," The Manderlys and Robett Glover, at least, know that Rickon is still alive, and is the proper living heir to Winterfell.  For now, might makes right, and the conspirators have nothing to gain by going public until they are sure they have an army.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There has been time enough for Alysane Mormont to travel from the Neck to her home on Bear Island and join Stannis. If Maege and Galbert truly desired to reach the Wall it is suprising they have not got there; it remains possible they will travel to the Wall but it seems an increasingly remote possibility.

Not that I think they are in contact with Manderly and Robett. The true failing of Robb's kingdom was not the lack of an heir but that so many of his lords had to kneel to the Iron Throne when their kin were taken hostage, so I think they are working to rectify that. The Neck borders the Frey lands so I think they are watching the Twins and waiting for the hostages to be moved from the castle so they can be freed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

There has been time enough for Alysane Mormont to travel from the Neck to her home on Bear Island and join Stannis.

Alysane wasn't in the Neck. She never travelled south with Robb. Presumably because of her infant son.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

There has been time enough for Alysane Mormont to travel from the Neck to her home on Bear Island and join Stannis. If Maege and Galbert truly desired to reach the Wall it is suprising they have not got there; it remains possible they will travel to the Wall but it seems an increasingly remote possibility.

Not that I think they are in contact with Manderly and Robett. The true failing of Robb's kingdom was not the lack of an heir but that so many of his lords had to kneel to the Iron Throne when their kin were taken hostage, so I think they are working to rectify that. The Neck borders the Frey lands so I think they are watching the Twins and waiting for the hostages to be moved from the castle so they can be freed.

When was Alysane Mormont ever in the Neck?  I thought she went from Bear Island to Deepwood Motte, met Stannis there, and has been on the march from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell ever since?  Her sisters Lyra and Jorelle are in the Neck with her mother, but I don't remember her ever being there. 

That reminds me, though, the distance from Greywater Watch to the Wall is probably 5x the distance from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell, and the latter has taken almost an entire book with the snows (of course, an army moves a lot slower than a small retinue).

I'd say the true failing of Robb's kingdom was that he got murdered and betrayed, not that the IC holds northern hostages.

At any rate, I really like your idea that the missing bannermen are watching the Twins.  In fact I like it better than my own theory.  If anyone is going to appeal to Jon, it would be Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell, who asked to go to the wall.  Edmure was one of the 5 people who knew the contents of Robb's will, so that could easily have been one of the pieces of information he passed on to the Blackfish and the other inhabitants of Riverrun when Jaime send him inside to negotiate.  It may be that they are going there on a mission from the Blackfish, to fill Jon in on the conspiracy and attempt to win the Night's Watch to their cause.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not explicit that she was in the Neck because none of Maege's daughters but Dacey were named in ASOS. She does not appear to have been at Bear Island the entire time, her younger sister Lyanna was the one to respond to a letter from Stannis. That she knows Lyra and Jorelle were with Maege rather than elsewhere with the scattered northern forces, implies she was with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

This SSM from 2000 suggests to me that Robb's witnesses are aware of the contents, at least.

Wasn't there a more recent report from a Q&A where George explicitly stated that the contents of Robb's will are unknown. Or rather, not the way we, the readers, might think they are? I seem to recall something like that.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

I disagree.  It took Janos Slynt an entire book to get from King's Landing to the wall on main roads.  It took Bran & co all of ASOS to get from Winterfell to the Nightfort avoiding the main roads. Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell left for the wall from Riverrun in AFFC, and still have not arrived.  Getting from Greywater to the wall while avoiding Boltons and Freys along the way is not as simple or direct as we'd like to think.

You have to keep in mind that ACoK didn't exactly cover an entire year (like AGoT did - in that book the way from Winterfell to KL was covered rather quickly). And we actually have no way of knowing by which route Thorne reached KL (he could have gone there by way of White Harbor, Sisterton, Braavos, Pentos, Gulltown, and Duskendale) nor how long he had to wait at Eastwatch to catch a ship.

ASoS covered even less time, and ADwD did not exactly cover much time after the end of the Riverrun siege, either.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

There is no reason for the conspirators to popularize Robb's will - in fact its better that they don't.  They have no clue that Jon has an army; making known to their enemies that Jon was named as Robb's heir would put him in danger.  Besides, the Bolton's deal with the IC and the Riverlands' capitulation means that no one is left to claim Robb's legitimacy as King, and, thus, Jon is still a bastard, unless and until the conspirators were to fight for and win independence in Robb's name.

Who cares about Jon? The point is to get back at the Boltons and to prevent their rise to power. The longer you wait to prevent the consolidation of power after an usurpation the bigger the chance to usurper gets through with it. And Robb's will or not - I see little to no chance that many Northmen would support any such action. Remember Lord Ryswell's son. The Northmen take the NW oaths very seriously. King Robb might have been able to get Jon Snow out of his vows but King Robb is dead and all that remains is a piece of paper. A piece of paper has no chance to prevail against tradition and custom.

Robb was recognized as King in the North by all his subjects. If his last will also contained a legitimization decree of the sort Aegon the Unworthy used then Jon Snow might indeed have been legitimized as Jon Stark, Eddard Stark's son. Whether this would be universally accepted is another matter. Probably not in the South. And it would not affect the fact that Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and bound to stay there.

1 hour ago, estermonty python said:

As for "Arya," The Manderlys and Robett Glover, at least, know that Rickon is still alive, and is the proper living heir to Winterfell.  For now, might makes right, and the conspirators have nothing to gain by going public until they are sure they have an army.  

There is actually no indication in the last Davos chapter that Wyman has some hidden army or wants to stage another war. He wants to use Rickon Stark as propaganda tool to challenge the Bolton claim to Winterfell. And even that is a stretch, you know, because the true heir would be Brandon Stark. If Roose would pull him out of ass suddenly then Rickon wouldn't be worth all that much. That's not going to happen, of course, but the plan there seems to be to hope to crush the flimsy support Roose still has among some Northmen.

How this whole thing fits into with Wyman going to Winterfell I still don't understand. He doesn't have many men with him, and he is completely in Roose's power. Not to mention that - as things turned out - he has no way of reaching Stannis directly. One hopes whoever is going to command the Manderly army carries a letter written, signed, and sealed by Davos Seaworth or else any chance of Stannis ever allying himself with the Manderlys is gone. The man still thinks Manderly beheaded Davos, after all.

But even with such a letter existing - possibly also containing the information about Rickon and Davos' mission - it is very difficult to guess whether it will ever reach Stannis.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Wasn't there a more recent report from a Q&A where George explicitly stated that the contents of Robb's will are unknown. Or rather, not the way we, the readers, might think they are? I seem to recall something like that.

You have to keep in mind that ACoK didn't exactly cover an entire year (like AGoT did - in that book the way from Winterfell to KL was covered rather quickly). And we actually have no way of knowing by which route Thorne reached KL (he could have gone there by way of White Harbor, Sisterton, Braavos, Pentos, Gulltown, and Duskendale) nor how long he had to wait at Eastwatch to catch a ship.

ASoS covered even less time, and ADwD did not exactly cover much time after the end of the Riverrun siege, either.

Who cares about Jon? The point is to get back at the Boltons and to prevent their rise to power. The longer you wait to prevent the consolidation of power after an usurpation the bigger the chance to usurper gets through with it. And Robb's will or not - I see little to no chance that many Northmen would support any such action. Remember Lord Ryswell's son. The Northmen take the NW oaths very seriously. King Robb might have been able to get Jon Snow out of his vows but King Robb is dead and all that remains is a piece of paper. A piece of paper has no chance to prevail against tradition and custom.

Robb was recognized as King in the North by all his subjects. If his last will also contained a legitimization decree of the sort Aegon the Unworthy used then Jon Snow might indeed have been legitimized as Jon Stark, Eddard Stark's son. Whether this would be universally accepted is another matter. Probably not in the South. And it would not affect the fact that Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and bound to stay there.

There is actually no indication in the last Davos chapter that Wyman has some hidden army or wants to stage another war. He wants to use Rickon Stark as propaganda tool to challenge the Bolton claim to Winterfell. And even that is a stretch, you know, because the true heir would be Brandon Stark. If Roose would pull him out of ass suddenly then Rickon wouldn't be worth all that much. That's not going to happen, of course, but the plan there seems to be to hope to crush the flimsy support Roose still has among some Northmen.

How this whole thing fits into with Wyman going to Winterfell I still don't understand. He doesn't have many men with him, and he is completely in Roose's power. Not to mention that - as things turned out - he has no way of reaching Stannis directly. One hopes whoever is going to command the Manderly army carries a letter written, signed, and sealed by Davos Seaworth or else any chance of Stannis ever allying himself with the Manderlys is gone. The man still thinks Manderly beheaded Davos, after all.

But even with such a letter existing - possibly also containing the information about Rickon and Davos' mission - it is very difficult to guess whether it will ever reach Stannis.

 

Lord Varys

I have to say that you discount a lot of information that contradicts your conclusion here.

It all fits together if Manderly and co are playing the long con against everyone, including against Stannis. They care about the Starks. Wylla makes that clear, despite their best attempts to shut her up in front of the Freys. And Martin planted numerous clues as to why they were biding their time. Manderly wanted his son released in the South. And he had to play the farce with the Freys present.

Meanwhile he was raising men as fast as he could in White Harbor, as witnessed by Davos. And building a navy. And doing all of this as secretly as possible. And he is conspiring with Robett Glover.

Meanwhile, the Mormonts seem covinced that there is still a King in the North, and his name is Stark. The Umbers are waiting for the Greatjon's release/escape. Maege and Gallbart are biding their time, with Howland, waiting.

Everyone is waiting. For it all to come together. Wyman went to Winterfell, because he had to. But Roose himself notes that he brought no hostages. He is an old man. And much like Big Bucket Wull, apparantly doesn't care too much about his own safety. From his general health's look, it appears he might not live much longer anyway.

He has 50 ships. More heavy horse than even the Boltons. The Boltons have in the region of 4000 men, and likely close to 1000 cavalry. Where does that put the size of Manderly's forces? 1500 cavalry? And a proportionate number of infantry on top of that?

And he is recruiting new men still. Compare that to the 300 men he brought to Winterfell. It is clearly an honor guard only. The rest of his army is somewhere else.

Something big is afoot. If I had to guess, I expect Maege, Gallbart and Howland Reed are conspiring to free the Northern hostages that were kept at the Twins. The Crannogmen are perfect for ambush attacks, and those hostages are about to be moved. Once the Greatjon and others are freed, we have a situation were the Umbers, Reeds, Mormonts, Glovers, Mountain Clans and Manderlys (who have the Lockes, Slates and Flints of Widow's Watch in tow according to Wyman) are united to take the North back for the Starks. Armed with Robb's will.

And if it turns out that Lady Dustin was a great actress all this time - because lets face it, her supposed reason for hating the Starks sounds suspect as hell - then we have a perfect storm, with the Dustins and Ryswells added to the mix.

All of this not to serve Stannis in some vainglorious and doomed quest to take back the Iron Throne. The North could care less about the Iron Throne. This perfect storm is to put a King in the North back in Winterfell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, James Steller said:

For some reason I'm more concerned that the two glover kids are hostages on the Iron islands. I hope GRRM takes the time to tell us if they ever make it back home.

 

But to answer your question, I have no doubt that the Glover brothers are in contact with each other and are working on the same plan.

At least they are not in Beth Cassel's shoes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

I have to say that you discount a lot of information that contradicts your conclusion here.

It all fits together if Manderly and co are playing the long con against everyone, including against Stannis. They care about the Starks. Wylla makes that clear, despite their best attempts to shut her up in front of the Freys. And Martin planted numerous clues as to why they were biding their time. Manderly wanted his son released in the South. And he had to play the farce with the Freys present.

Meanwhile he was raising men as fast as he could in White Harbor, as witnessed by Davos. And building a navy. And doing all of this as secretly as possible. And he is conspiring with Robett Glover.

Meanwhile, the Mormonts seem covinced that there is still a King in the North, and his name is Stark. The Umbers are waiting for the Greatjon's release/escape. Maege and Gallbart are biding their time, with Howland, waiting.

Everyone is waiting. For it all to come together. Wyman went to Winterfell, because he had to. But Roose himself notes that he brought no hostages. He is an old man. And much like Big Bucket Wull, apparantly doesn't care too much about his own safety. From his general health's look, it appears he might not live much longer anyway.

He has 50 ships. More heavy horse than even the Boltons. The Boltons have in the region of 4000 men, and likely close to 1000 cavalry. Where does that put the size of Manderly's forces? 1500 cavalry? And a proportionate number of infantry on top of that?

And he is recruiting new men still. Compare that to the 300 men he brought to Winterfell. It is clearly an honor guard only. The rest of his army is somewhere else.

Something big is afoot. If I had to guess, I expect Maege, Gallbart and Howland Reed are conspiring to free the Northern hostages that were kept at the Twins. The Crannogmen are perfect for ambush attacks, and those hostages are about to be moved. Once the Greatjon and others are freed, we have a situation were the Umbers, Reeds, Mormonts, Glovers, Mountain Clans and Manderlys (who have the Lockes, Slates and Flints of Widow's Watch in tow according to Wyman) are united to take the North back for the Starks. Armed with Robb's will.

And if it turns out that Lady Dustin was a great actress all this time - because lets face it, her supposed reason for hating the Starks sounds suspect as hell - then we have a perfect storm, with the Dustins and Ryswells added to the mix.

All of this not to serve Stannis in some vainglorious and doomed quest to take back the Iron Throne. The North could care less about the Iron Throne. This perfect storm is to put a King in the North back in Winterfell.

If all this is as you say - why are they even scheming? If every lord is in on it, has coordinated and want to do something about it, why not, after Tywins death and the chaos in the south, raise your troops officially and beat the Boltons up. The rest of the lords should have numbers at least twice, most likely trice or more then them. Why care about hostages - people die, after all - just mobilize and kick the shit out of the fucking Boltons.

No, this conspiracy must lack coordination and participants. Not all lords can be in on it. Many, like Lady Dustin, is on the fence or have gotten their previous lords killed - which means we have a internal struggle in many northern houses (suddenly, you could be leader of your house and only thing you need to do is to like the opposite faction - Bolton/Stark than your opponent). I think the Stark dislike and the Bolton support in the North is higher than this forum think and that Lady Dustin was written in to represent those that resent the Starks, but at the same time are nervous about the current events (and of course hates the Freys and dislikes Ramsay).

I think this struggle will be far more even, painful and bloody. If GNC is true, this will be over very quickly. Which makes the best literature?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×