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3legImp

Little finger threatening Lord Royce

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How does Littlefinger's story about Sansa getting taken even make sense?  Any route which Littlefinger's story would propose would mean any Bolton force that intercepted their party would be invading the Vale.  

How on Earth does Littlefinger rely on this story to make him innocent?  And Littlefinger completely undoes himself when he turns the accusations around. 

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Yeah, that was the one scene I really didn't like in this otherwise very good episode. Imo, it didn't make sense for multiple reasons.

1. As you said, where would they intercept? All the paths lead through the Vale. So if LF really wants to accuse Royce, he has to imply that Royce was in line with the Boltons landing in the Vale and operating within the Vale. I find it excessively hard to believe that someone you label a traitor to such a degree is one you could reasonably claim to trust afterwards, without raising suspicion from others.

2. Why threaten Royce in order to get him to lead the army? I was always under the impression that Royce would be in favour of entering the war anyway. He might have doubts about the side to choose (maybe) - but LF could still use his grip over Robyn Arryn to "enforce" the right direction then. But then again, Royce should be aware that Sansa is a traitor/accused of regicide by the ruling house (Lannister), so the very fact that he at least implicitly consents to hiding her from them means that he wouldn't join on the Lannister side.

Of course, if LF had tried to enter the war "normally" without threatening Royce, he would have had to make up another story how Sansa got North. And this is probably the crux of the whole issue: what would be a more credible story that would not totally discredit LF? So maybe that's why he had to go for this - still highly dubious and, to me unconvincing - approach. He shouldn't have sent Sansa North like that in the first place. Pretty sure he could've gotten Robyn to March there either, to take back Sansa's homeland, blahblah, then they can marry and rule it together....and oh noes, suddenly Robyn died.

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I honestly don't think Lord Royce believed him. But Robin (I think that's his name in the show) is Baelysh's puppet and, being Lord of the Vale, he can get Royce killed.

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21 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

I honestly don't think Lord Royce believed him. But Robin (I think that's his name in the show) is Baelysh's puppet and, being Lord of the Vale, he can get Royce killed.

This was my take from the scene. Royce looked annoyed / frustrated that he couldn't argue back as Robin would believe Uncle Petyr no matter how ridiculous his claims.

Also Royce probably doesn't mind leading an army against the Boltons. It's not like Littlefinger had him arrested and thrown in a sky cell. No point arguing against Littlefinger when the outcome suits him fine.

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What I don’t understand is why is SweetRobin in charge in the first place?

In real life when we have an underage monarch a Regent is named that will rule until the ruler comes of age. In the book we have the same things. The Lords Declarants of the Vale, Lord Protector of the Vale, Hands, Wardens that could fill that role.

In the show a small unstable child is able to make decisions that could spell disaster for an entire kingdom? And all for plot purposes, because LF has to be shown as a badass while playing SR and Royce. If LF would have tried that with Lord Protector Royce, he would have died the next second.

Abandon all common sense and logic ye who watch this!

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The scene makes about equal sense as Rickon telling Bolton guards to arrest Ramsay and them obeying. The realistic reaction from Royce and his personal guards. The logical conlcusion would have been that LF has an unhealthy control over the young Lord and the young Lord has to be removed from under his influence at all cost. 

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Littlefinger wanted to have control over Royce. If he didn't, Royce was trying to frame him of kidnapping Sansa. Not that it makes complete sense the way it did go down, but that was Littlefinger's motivation. Obey me or I'll make Robin execute you.

What show completely skips over is the feudal power dynamics. You can't threaten a vassal in his own castle to execute him. He'll have much more men than you have, and threatening a vassal for no reason is (I think a valid casus belli). So Royce could just have them killed both right and there (by our world's logic, not show's logic).

Even better, Robin should not be able to make decisions; a regent should be in his place. We can assume some of kingdoms who did not do this back in history, probably didn't last very long. And I saved the best for the last, Most bannermen of sweetrobin would support Royce instead of sweetrobin and Littlefinger most likely. So not only he would have a valid casus belli to overpower them, he would not suffer in the aftermath as well and gain more power for himself in the Vale.

The show lacks historical logic.

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1 hour ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

What I don’t understand is why is SweetRobin in charge in the first place?

In real life when we have an underage monarch a Regent is named that will rule until the ruler comes of age. In the book we have the same things. The Lords Declarants of the Vale, Lord Protector of the Vale, Hands, Wardens that could fill that role.

In the show a small unstable child is able to make decisions that could spell disaster for an entire kingdom? And all for plot purposes, because LF has to be shown as a badass while playing SR and Royce. If LF would have tried that with Lord Protector Royce, he would have died the next second.

Abandon all common sense and logic ye who watch this!

I agree

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1 hour ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

What I don’t understand is why is SweetRobin in charge in the first place?

In real life when we have an underage monarch a Regent is named that will rule until the ruler comes of age. In the book we have the same things. The Lords Declarants of the Vale, Lord Protector of the Vale, Hands, Wardens that could fill that role.

It makes kind of sense for Littlefinger to convince Robin to go to war. Littlefinger is Lord Protector but the Lords of the Vale mistrust him but if the Lord Protector and the Lord of the Vale agree it is next to impossible for the Lords to disagree.

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Much a dislike these 'Criticize without repercussion' threads that are mostly rants by posters who just don't get it, in this case I have to say this was the weak point in an otherwise impressive episode. I do agree with all the bemusement articulated above.

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12 minutes ago, messem said:

It makes kind of sense for Littlefinger to convince Robin to go to war. Littlefinger is Lord Protector but the Lords of the Vale mistrust him but if the Lord Protector and the Lord of the Vale agree it is next to impossible for the Lords to disagree.

 

If he was Lord Protector in the show he wouldn’t need SR approval to do anything, he could do it directly, because SR is a minor, thus unable to decide in matters of state. He should try to convince the other lords, not the kid.

 

 

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I actually think that this scene was a set-up for precisely the thing you are talking about - LF's downfall at the hands of Vale lords.

Baelish excuse was lame because his lies and schemes finally start to catch up with him. He tried to grasp too many things at once and now they are slowly slipping from his hands. I think he banked on the idea, that when he (and Vale) meets with Sansa, she'll back him up as she did it with Lysa's murder. He may be in for a nasty surprise - Sansa might not outright hate him, but she certainly doesn't trust him blindly either. 

He threatened Royce, to showcase growing tension between the two and set up future payback. LF is actually Lord Protector of the Vale right now, so he has a de facto power over the land and its people. But he is also seen as a stranger there and if he blatantly behaves as if he owns the place, then he most certainly would have an uprising on his hands. So he pretends to follow Robin, who is of Arryn blood. 

I think Robin being the last Arryn is what actually made people like Royce accommodate his whims and moods until now. Remember two things - Vale is loyal to Arryns since forever and Robin's moods ruled the Vale for some time now because Lysa wasn't exactly mitigating him. Could Royce kill LF for threatening him? Yes, but that would mean going against his loyalty to Arryns since it was Robin and not LF making the actual judgement.

Also, it was clear that Royce was completely thrown out of balance by LF's accusation and threat. Last time LF was in Vale he and Royce were on fairly good terms, it seemed both of them understood that Robin is a complete failure as a Lord and they must work together to keep Vale intact. Now LF made an 180 on this. Also, Royce must remember, that people were killed on Robin's whim before, so the threat was very real for him. Also, I think Robin has personal guards (I'm sure LF wouldn't trust him entirely to Royce), so attacking LF and stealing Robin from him right then and there would be a rash move. But I'm sure Royce is coming around to understand, that in the end all the Robin can do is throw a fit if Vale gives him and LF collective finger and he will act on that knowledge eventually.

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It's no more complicated than serving as an engine to show just who owns Brave Sir Robyn. Now we are in no doubt that the likes of Royce knows it as well.

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10 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I actually think that this scene was a set-up for precisely the thing you are talking about - LF's downfall at the hands of Vale lords.

Baelish excuse was lame because his lies and schemes finally start to catch up with him. He tried to grasp too many things at once and now they are slowly slipping from his hands. I think he banked on the idea, that when he (and Vale) meets with Sansa, she'll back him up as she did it with Lysa's murder. He may be in for a nasty surprise - Sansa might not outright hate him, but she certainly doesn't trust him blindly either. 

He threatened Royce, to showcase growing tension between the two and set up future payback. LF is actually Lord Protector of the Vale right now, so he has a de facto power over the land and its people. But he is also seen as a stranger there and if he blatantly behaves as if he owns the place, then he most certainly would have an uprising on his hands. So he pretends to follow Robin, who is of Arryn blood. 

I think Robin being the last Arryn is what actually made people like Royce accommodate his whims and moods until now. Remember two things - Vale is loyal to Arryns since forever and Robin's moods ruled the Vale for some time now because Lysa wasn't exactly mitigating him. Could Royce kill LF for threatening him? Yes, but that would mean going against his loyalty to Arryns since it was Robin and not LF making the actual judgement.

Also, it was clear that Royce was completely thrown out of balance by LF's accusation and threat. Last time LF was in vale he and Royce were on fairly well terms, it seemed both of them understood that Robin is a complete failure as a Lord and they must work together to keep Vale intact. Now LF made an 180 on this. Also, Royce must remember, that people were killed on Robin's whim before, so the threat was very real for him. Also, I think Robin has personal guards (I'm sure LF wouldn't trust him entirely to Royce), so attacking LF and stealing Robin from him right then and there would be a rash move. But I'm sure Royce is coming around to understand, that in the end all the Robin can do is throw a fit if Vale gives him and LF collective finger and he will act on that knowledge eventually.

Actually, where the hell was Robin fostered? Isn't it Royce's place?

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As long as Lysa lived he was fostered at her tit, so to speak. He was isolated from pretty much anyone, who could influence him. And since his mother's death, he is in Royce's custody in fact. But it's easy to see, why he would prefer LF over Royce, even if he spends more time with Royce then with LF. LF spoils and indulges him every chance - possibly arranges for gifts even when he is away. And Royce actually tries to make a lord out of Robin, which means discipline and training - two least favorite of Robin's things. 

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3 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

As long as Lysa lived he was fostered at her tit, so to speak. He was isolated from pretty much anyone, who could influence him. And since his mother's death, he is in Royce's custody in fact. But it's easy to see, why he would prefer LF over Royce, even if he spends more time with Royce then with LF. LF spoils and indulges him every chance - possibly arranges for gifts even when he is away. And Royce actually tries to make a lord out of Robin, which means discipline and training - two least favorite of Robin's things. 

Good point. We see that from the way Robyn drops his archery kit as soon as he sees LF (the camera makes a point of showing it hit the floor)

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my sweetrobin will let littlefinger fly through the moon door. littlefinger is worthless so far away from kings landing and without his brothel. time to fly

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I've rewatched LF-Royce standoff and the scene makes it pretty clear, that Royce is outnumbered. Royce actually invokes home field advantage against Littlefinger at first, but then LF turns to Robin and the power immediately shifts. As soon as Robin says "Should we make him fly, uncle?" the knights all around Royce grab their swords. It's clear, for now Vale is still absolutely loyal to the last Arryn. But I don't think this will last much longer. Royce is definitely fed up with this little shit bossing him around - and as soon as Sansa will come into play I think they will plot LF's demise.

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The point of that scene was in part to show that LF has power over Royce. It happens differently in the books but the point remains the same. 

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What wonderd me most was LF telling Royce a lie which this will at once detect as a lie - he accused him to be a traitor, but even if Royce can not proof that he is not, he KNOWS he ist not.

So LF has in fact told Royce "I'm a liar!" And, Royce can be nearly sure that it was LF who gave Sansa to the Boltons.

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