Question about the Causeway at Queenscrown.

[Kyll.Ing.]

It doesn't have to be the water level changing. The far more likely explanation is that the heavy stone causeway sank into the muddy bottom of the lake as the years went by.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, something like that. It's an abandoned village, without people to keep stuff like riverbeds like it should be, those change rather quickly. GRRM rarely makes those mistakes. Especially since the historic references had way, way lower water levels. Nothing beyond ankle-deep, just enough to obscure the path. Not chest-high.

 

As to Old Nan, it isn't impossible. Just very, very unlikely. She got like a full century to gather her stories, compared to the ten years of coherent memory Meera or Jojen could boast. Who live about 1,000 miles further south anyway.

Why do you think it's very very unlikely? It seems quite likely Nan could have spent time at the Queenscrown village as small folk to the Lordling who ruled the holdfast but fled south to either the Umbers or the mountain clans when Wildling raids got to much to bear.

Im not sure what it's very very unlikely about this? 

Where do you think Old Nan hails from?

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

It doesn't have to be the water level changing. The far more likely explanation is that the heavy stone causeway sank into the muddy bottom of the lake as the years went by.

Sounds like a decent explanation actually. 

 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Why do you think it's very very unlikely? It seems quite likely Nan could have spent time at the Queenscrown village as small folk to the Lordling who ruled the holdfast but fled south to either the Umbers or the mountain clans when Wildling raids got to much to bear.

Im not sure what it's very very unlikely about this? 

Where do you think Old Nan hails from?

Because then Bran should know that she was from there. She would have told her stories from first person perspective, and Bran would have mentioned it.

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Feel free to share any thoughts you ever have CP, pessimistic or no. 

Okay, all in good cheer and camaraderie

The towerhouse and the causeway.  As you know I have not read the coffee table history book.

Which was built first the towerhouse or the causeway?  There’s a towerhouse setting on an island in a lake or there is a towerhouse setting on a piece of land surrounded by a moat. Either way there is no drawbridge.

Both you and I have provided the Bran & Jon information about Queenscrown, well at least what they know about it. So, my wee lil tartan where do we go from there.

Was the causeway built before there was water in the lake? Was it a dry moat? Did the, some little Lord, as Jon describes him, have Starks or Targs help build the towerhouse?  Somehow or another both the towerhouse & the causeway got built. Jon tells Ygritte the lord would like a becon fire atop the towerhouse as a signal.

I’m open to the idea that Nan could have been recruited from the Queenscrown area. I’m more inclined to think she was recruited from Winter town, because the mother of one of the Brandon’s died during childbirth. The Stark’s would need to find a wet nurse rather quickly. BUT that doesn’t mean that Nan couldn’t have migrated from Queencrown to Winter town.

Let’s delve a bit deeper into the author’s spinning of tales in the story, as in a story within a story. The Good Queen became bored at WF. Flew her dragon to Queenscrown for a visit and stayed a night.  She then flew her dragon to the Wall. The NW was so enamored by her & her donation they renamed a castle after her.

As I have said you may be onto something with your idea about Nan.

As to the original question,” Has the Causeway at Queenscrown that leads to the Holdfast on the Island always been hidden under water or was it once visible?”

Me no no. Which was built first the towerhouse or the causeway?

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Damn unlikely. Not because it wouldn't be viable per se, but because it wouldn't be viable in the North. Except during the height of summer or winter, the holdfast would be completely cut off. Anybody coming to, or especially coming from the holdfast would get frostburn from feet to chest. Wet feet alone are a death sentence as soon as the temperature consistently drops below ~10°C, long, long before the lake would be frozen solid and could be crossed that way.

Crossing by boat wouldn't be possible either, due to the lake being partially frozen.

 

Stuff like that works, but it requires either consistently warm climate, or varying tides completely exposing it part of the day. Or the water being level with the causeway, not rising above the bootsoles.

Ahhh, but the tricksy northmen know about snowshoes, so perhaps, they know how to skate across the frozen lake/moat. That doesn't solve it either cuz the wildlings could walk across the frozen moat unless, crack pot alert, the lake/moat is heated by an underground...

Then the intruders would need to bring their own dingy's or walk the causeway & be picked off by arrows. All the while the beacon has been lit and is burning and the northern clans are riding to the rescue.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The frozen lake wouldn't be a problem - if it's frozen solid. The months while the temperature is low enough to kill, but not low enough for the lake to be completely frozen, those are the problem.

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Because then Bran should know that she was from there. She would have told her stories from first person perspective, and Bran would have mentioned it.

Not necessarily, if Bran knew where she was from then wouldn't he have said when he first describes her to us in AGOT? Instead he says vague stuff like "nobody knows how old she is", and "she came to wet nurse for a Brandon Stark", but he doesn't say she came from 'such and such' to wet nurse for a Brandon Stark. 

Its possible Nan has never told them where she actually came from and just kept her mysterious story teller aura, or GRRM is, as always, being vague about where she came from. 

If GRRM wanted us to know he would have revealed it already, he may well just want us to discuss and theorise it to keep us guessing for even longer and reveal it at the end. 

I'm not saying Nan is from the village, but I do believe she was from the Umber lands or the Mountain clans and there is evidence that people from that village in the gift fled Wildling Raiders to head south to Umber or mountain clan lands, and there is also evidence Nan harbours some kind of ill feeling toward Wildlings which may point to previous bad experience. 

So having said all that, Nan being from the village surrounding Queenscrown before fleeing south I believe is just as likely as any Nan possibility there ever was. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

20 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Okay, all in good cheer and camaraderie

The towerhouse and the causeway.  As you know I have not read the coffee table history book.

Which was built first the towerhouse or the causeway?  There’s a towerhouse setting on an island in a lake or there is a towerhouse setting on a piece of land surrounded by a moat. Either way there is no drawbridge.

Both you and I have provided the Bran & Jon information about Queenscrown, well at least what they know about it. So, my wee lil tartan where do we go from there.

Was the causeway built before there was water in the lake? Was it a dry moat? Did the, some little Lord, as Jon describes him, have Starks or Targs help build the towerhouse?  Somehow or another both the towerhouse & the causeway got built. Jon tells Ygritte the lord would like a becon fire atop the towerhouse as a signal.

I’m open to the idea that Nan could have been recruited from the Queenscrown area. I’m more inclined to think she was recruited from Winter town, because the mother of one of the Brandon’s died during childbirth. The Stark’s would need to find a wet nurse rather quickly. BUT that doesn’t mean that Nan couldn’t have migrated from Queencrown to Winter town.

Let’s delve a bit deeper into the author’s spinning of tales in the story, as in a story within a story. The Good Queen became bored at WF. Flew her dragon to Queenscrown for a visit and stayed a night.  She then flew her dragon to the Wall. The NW was so enamored by her & her donation they renamed a castle after her.

As I have said you may be onto something with your idea about Nan.

As to the original question,” Has the Causeway at Queenscrown that leads to the Holdfast on the Island always been hidden under water or was it once visible?”

Me no no. Which was built first the towerhouse or the causeway?

Ah, now that is the question isn't it?.

The setting is a tower house holdfast on an island, in a lake. I'm not sure who built it and what was built first now that I think of it, but if I had to guess though I'd say the tower was built first and then the defence minded zig-zig approach causeway was built after. 

The only way I could see this built without serious hassles was with the help of Giants, although I'm not sure how old the tower is and I'm not sure the text helps there with a year or era. 

As to Old Nan, I'll clarify a wee bit better. I am not claiming that she was recruited from Queenscrown to wet nurse. I think though that it is very possible Nan has spent time in the village there, or actually grew up there, before fleeing Wildling Raiders to seek refuge with either the Umbers or Mountain clans, and she was recruited from there. 

There is evidence the Queenscrown village people's in the gift fled Wildlings to seek shelter from Umbers and mountain clans and there is evidence Nan has ill feelings toward the Wildlings that point to a bad experience with them. 

I hear you about the baby needing a Wet nurse quickly. If my years are correct though, it may have been spring time when Nan was needed at WF, for two reasons- the baby dies at 3 of a summer chill, and, I believe that Nan heads to WF just a wee bit before D&E head there, and when they are heading there the realm is feeling the effects of the great Spring sickness. So I think the Winter town is possibly less likely as it doesn't fill up until winter hits.

Also, Last hearth is not far up the Kingsroad, while the mountains are not the furthest away either, and I think there is ways to nourish a baby sufficiently until a lactating human arrives such as goats milk etc. 

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Ahhh, but the tricksy northmen know about snowshoes, so perhaps, they know how to skate across the frozen lake/moat. That doesn't solve it either cuz the wildlings could walk across the frozen moat unless, crack pot alert, the lake/moat is heated by an underground...

Then the intruders would need to bring their own dingy's or walk the causeway & be picked off by arrows. All the while the beacon has been lit and is burning and the northern clans are riding to the rescue.

Come on then CP out with your full crackpot! Lay it on the table lol. Crackpottery is welcome. 

[Clegane'sPup]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Come on then CP out with your full crackpot! Lay it on the table lol. Crackpottery is welcome. 

HAR! My first attempt at cracked pottery. I usually try to debunk it. Keep in mind that I am posting tongue in cheek using my best Tormund interpretation.

None of Bran & companions mention the water temperature as they twisted and turned their way along the causeway at Queencrown.

In the Bran chapter (c. 24) before they reach Queenscrown Bran was talking about cold wind, freezing rain and sleet. The little group of companions also were talking about the Isle of Faces. The Isle of Faces is an island surrounded by a lake named God’s Eye. Weeeeel, Queenscrown is a little isle surrounded by a lake. Could there be a connection between the two?

In c.26 while Jon is traveling with the wildlings on the north side of the Wall he and Ygritte slip off into the cave and find an underground river. Ygritte tells Jon the tale of Gorne & Grendel. They have their love fest. Ygritte stumbles into a pool and screeches at the cold of the water. Is this underground river part of the underground river in the CotF’s cave? If so, that cold water river must not be feeding into the water at Queenscrown. Neither Bran nor any of his companions commented on the water temperature at Queencrown even though previously they had experienced freezing rain and sleet.

How does this relate to the water at Queenscrown, you might be asking. Four chapter’s, two Bran and two Jon, I learn four stories within a story; Laughing Tree Knight, Isle of Faces, Good Queen Alysanne and Gorne & Grendel. I still have not answered the question about the water temperature at Queenscrown.

Winterfell. Heated by a hot spring. If I look at the pretty picture of Queenscrown on wiki I see mist rising from the water. The simple answer is bodies of water, such as lakes, ponds, and rivers, are much slower to cool down than land areas are. During clear fall nights, the warmth of the land escapes into space. As the air over the land cools, it will drift over the warmer water.

Har! So there you have it. The Queenscrown isle water is heated.

Wee little lad or lassie ask me no more questions and I will spin ye no more tales.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

15 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Also, Last hearth is not far up the Kingsroad, while the mountains are not the furthest away either, and I think there is ways to nourish a baby sufficiently until a lactating human arrives such as goats milk etc. 

"Not far up the Kingsroad" actually being about 500 miles as the raven flies. For a commoner, that's about two to three months on the road. Even for a noble, with access to good horses and everythig, at least a month.

Why would any parent with two neurons to rub against each other hire a wetnurse, who couldn't start feeding the babe for three to four months, instead of one of the thousands upon thousands of nursing mothers inside a  sinle day's ride?

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

"Not far up the Kingsroad" actually being about 500 miles as the raven flies. For a commoner, that's about two to three months on the road. Even for a noble, with access to good horses and everythig, at least a month.

Why would any parent with two neurons to rub against each other hire a wetnurse, who couldn't start feeding the babe for three to four months, instead of one of the thousands upon thousands of nursing mothers inside a  sinle day's ride?

I take you agree with my first part about Nans origin being vague and all that yes? 

Ok, Umber lands stretch much farther down than Last hearth to the lonely hills south of the last river which if you look at a map is not far from WF. 

And where are you getting 500 miles? Has that been stated as a fact? 

A healthy horse can actually travel around 40 miles a day at a trot, and it's spring time then with plenty streams and nourishment to keep it healthy.

So if we do the math, your 500 miles is around 12 days riding.

But let's say the journey is less than 500 miles, the Umber lands stretch for a hundred leagues along the east side of the Kingsroad. That's around 340 miles. So that's less days. And that's at a trot.

So no, not a few months, or a month. 

More like around a weeks riding, maybe a few days more.

So are you saying that you think Nan came from somewhere a days ride from WF? State the place? I'd like to know your thoughts. 

Jon recruits two wet nurses from the mountain clans to castle black, while I'm sure a molestown wench could have easy enough squeezed out a whelp recently no? And there were no lactating nurses among the Wildlings apparently. So this child had goats milk until the clan wet nurses arrived. 

Just like Baby Brandon Stark could have done until Old Nan arrived from either the Mountain Clans, or Umber lands. Easily possible.

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

HAR! My first attempt at cracked pottery. I usually try to debunk it. Keep in mind that I am posting tongue in cheek using my best Tormund interpretation.

None of Bran & companions mention the water temperature as they twisted and turned their way along the causeway at Queencrown.

In the Bran chapter (c. 24) before they reach Queenscrown Bran was talking about cold wind, freezing rain and sleet. The little group of companions also were talking about the Isle of Faces. The Isle of Faces is an island surrounded by a lake named God’s Eye. Weeeeel, Queenscrown is a little isle surrounded by a lake. Could there be a connection between the two?

In c.26 while Jon is traveling with the wildlings on the north side of the Wall he and Ygritte slip off into the cave and find an underground river. Ygritte tells Jon the tale of Gorne & Grendel. They have their love fest. Ygritte stumbles into a pool and screeches at the cold of the water. Is this underground river part of the underground river in the CotF’s cave? If so, that cold water river must not be feeding into the water at Queenscrown. Neither Bran nor any of his companions commented on the water temperature at Queencrown even though previously they had experienced freezing rain and sleet.

How does this relate to the water at Queenscrown, you might be asking. Four chapter’s, two Bran and two Jon, I learn four stories within a story; Laughing Tree Knight, Isle of Faces, Good Queen Alysanne and Gorne & Grendel. I still have not answered the question about the water temperature at Queenscrown.

Winterfell. Heated by a hot spring. If I look at the pretty picture of Queenscrown on wiki I see mist rising from the water. The simple answer is bodies of water, such as lakes, ponds, and rivers, are much slower to cool down than land areas are. During clear fall nights, the warmth of the land escapes into space. As the air over the land cools, it will drift over the warmer water.

Har! So there you have it. The Queenscrown isle water is heated.

Wee little lad or lassie ask me no more questions and I will spin ye no more tales.

Lol the Tormund voice was noted, Infact I read the entire post with a Tormund voice. 

Your right I don't recall Bran and co mention the temperature actually while crossing. You could be on to something. 

So if it is a lake surrounding Queenscrown with no underwater passages connecting or feeding water to it. And it is heated somehow. 

Then elaborate CP, is there more crack pottery here? Take this further if you'd like.

I will sift through the chapters to check if there is note of cold temperatures in the water but I don't think there was.

I had a look at the chapter, the only thing I could find of note was just before they walk out, Bran notes how it had been a warm sunny day, that may go some way to proving the water was warm enough for them to wade through without being freezing afterward?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, Old Nan's origins are vague and unknown. Point being unknown, that's it.

 

Yes, the Umber lands extend further south than Last Hearth, but that's not exactly helpful.

The Wall is ~300 miles long. That's an established fact. Take a ruler to a map of the North and you'll measure the distance from Winterfell to Last Hearth at about 1.7 times the length of the Wall. So, about 500 miles.

A healthy horse yes. For a day or two. Afterwards, exhaustion is a factor. With a competent rider. Any travel time longer than a about a week and a guy or gal on foot is actually faster.

Anyway, that's the noble I'm referencing. Smallfolk would walk, or travel by oxcart. And those make about eight miles per day.

 

Yes, I think Old Nan is from some little village or farm about Winterfell. One providing grain, eggs, fresh milk to it, and sometimes servants of one kind or another.

Kinda like the miller's family Ramsay and Theon murdered in Clash. They lived close enough that Theon could go for a date and be back the next morning.

 

 

Molestown is a pissant little village, maybe twenty to thirty women in childbearing age, and most of them using contraceptives. The Wildlings are about 3,000 total, maybe 500 women of childbearing age - and all of them damn close to the brink of starvation. That's rather bad for nursing women, causing them to dry up soon, if they ever had enough for two.

In contrast, the area around Winterfell, no more than half a day's travel by oxcart, got to have between 50,000 and 100,000 inhabitants. That's simply the minumum Winterfell requires to feed itself. Wellfed, healthy inhabitants, with lots of babes and nursing mothers to go around.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 25 May 2016 at 6:00 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

 

[Macgregor of the North]

19 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Yes, Old Nan's origins are vague and unknown. Point being unknown, that's it.

 

Yes, the Umber lands extend further south than Last Hearth, but that's not exactly helpful.

The Wall is ~300 miles long. That's an established fact. Take a ruler to a map of the North and you'll measure the distance from Winterfell to Last Hearth at about 1.7 times the length of the Wall. So, about 500 miles.

A healthy horse yes. For a day or two. Afterwards, exhaustion is a factor. With a competent rider. Any travel time longer than a about a week and a guy or gal on foot is actually faster.

Anyway, that's the noble I'm referencing. Smallfolk would walk, or travel by oxcart. And those make about eight miles per day.

 

Yes, I think Old Nan is from some little village or farm about Winterfell. One providing grain, eggs, fresh milk to it, and sometimes servants of one kind or another.

Kinda like the miller's family Ramsay and Theon murdered in Clash. They lived close enough that Theon could go for a date and be back the next morning.

 

 

Molestown is a pissant little village, maybe twenty to thirty women in childbearing age, and most of them using contraceptives. The Wildlings are about 3,000 total, maybe 500 women of childbearing age - and all of them damn close to the brink of starvation. That's rather bad for nursing women, causing them to dry up soon, if they ever had enough for two.

In contrast, the area around Winterfell, no more than half a day's travel by oxcart, got to have between 50,000 and 100,000 inhabitants. That's simply the minumum Winterfell requires to feed itself. Wellfed, healthy inhabitants, with lots of babes and nursing mothers to go around.

If Nan can from Umber lands it wouldn't likely be from Last hearth but maybe surrounding lands. 

It's 5 days ride laden with provisions from WF to the woods northeast that surround the Kingsroasd. That distance again east and you are deep in Umber lands easily. That's only ten days ride. 

If a small party is travelling for a wet nurse purpose, they would have the best horses possible and would make good steady time. As I said, there's no chance this would take a month or months like you stated. Likely around 12 days tops. 

Jon says nothing of the Wildlings health so that's not a factor, by the passage it means he would be happy to use one if there was one. He doesn't though, he uses Mountain clans wet nurses who would have had to travel over harder terrain than a possible Nan journey, so there is precedent for waiting a wee while for Nan to make it while using goats milk. 

Where are you getting 50'000-100'000 inhabitants around WF from? 

Robert hardly sees a soul on his way north, and the Winter town would be damn near empty at that time. 

I get that you think Nan came from a very close village, that's all well and good, but don't use that assumption to debunk another perfectly reasonable assumption that Nan may have came from Umber lands or even Mountain clan lands. 

Especially when GRRM shows us that Jon was surrounded by thousands of people including women but couldn't get a wet nurse so had to wait for two from the mountains to make quite a journey to the wall, and in the meantime he used goats milk.

It is a perfectly reasonable assumption to think Nans situation was similar. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Last Hearth or surrounding lands makes no difference. 500 miles or 300, both is outside sensible recruiting distance.

Please provide a motivation for Lord Stark to recruit a wetnurse from outside the local populace. It's not as if there is a lack of suitable candidates.

Jon has an entire chapter dedicated to the Wildlings being on starvation rations. Women not having enough milk for their own children (much less anybody elses) included.

From estimates about Winterfell's population. Castle population can make up about one to two percent of the total population of an area, but no more. Otherwise, you're either importing everything from far, far away (not a natural state for anything but dedicated border fortresses like at the Wall), or starving.

Standard medieval european settlement pattern: villages close enough to the market and taxation center to get there with an oxcart full of harvest by late morning, doing shopping or taxpaying, being back home in time for dinner. That's the standard pattern for Westeros as well. Winterfell's inhabitants require about 50,000-100,000 people (and that estimate is lowballing it) in that area.

 

Robert is comparing with the area about K, which is more densely settlet.

 

The problem with Old Nan being from far away is simple: There is no motivation for Lord Stark to waste time like this. None. Try to come up with one before trying to deal with the problems.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

The problem with Old Nan being from far away is simple: There is no motivation for Lord Stark to waste time like this. None. Try to come up with one before trying to deal with the problems.

I think one of the problems with this back and forth is that the important thing is not whether the most practical solution for a wet nurse was pursued, but whether something of symbolic importance is shown. I know not everyone in this forum looks at the books as literature, but a lot of what goes on has meaning beyond the plot.

Just as it is very important where a person is born (and reborn), wet nurses and milk brothers - the person who first nourishes you and the baby who shares the same nourishment - are VERY important, I think. GRRM provides an excuse that explains why the wet nurse for the baby Gilly left at the Wall had to be from a mountain clan, but the important thing is that the baby born beyond the Wall (Craster's baby) is now being nourished by a mountain clan woman from south of the Wall. I think this will prove significant in the potential development later in the books of the fall of the Wall and the reconciliation between the artificially divided wildlings and mountain clans.

Similarly, Old Nan's origin is significant, especially if the symbolism is that she nourished a Brandon Stark in the Stark "family tree." Does she come from the Frey family, with her great-grandson Walder and her occasional "mayhaps"? Is she from Umber-area smallfolk, as Macgregor OTN has convincingly laid out for us? Maybe she is both, or maybe she is none of the above. And GRRM may know but won't tell us. What will be important, if we do find out, is understanding how "Bran" was nourished as a brand new baby, and what this nourishment did to shape the Stark outlook on life.

And it may turn out that GRRM will have an explanation of how Old Nan, as a young mother, was a refugee from far away or traveled for another reason. If so, it will be because her origin is important in creating a connection between her birthplace or her family and the Stark family. Similar to the complicated explanation of the Manderly family setting up in White Harbor. (By the way, I was just discussing on another thread the wordplay around the words flow and wolf, and I suspect that the wet nurse symbolism, with the connotations of flowing milk, may tie into symbolism around rivers that flow. The Manderlys obviously also carry a Mander River connection to the North. If rivers and milk are connected, it's probably significant that pike (fish) is often poached in almond milk for Westeros feasts.)

I think the wet nurse and milk brother symbolism are intended to be considered alongside the "nipples on a breastplate" remark. Men in the story who utter this line consider armor to be sufficient protection for violent attacks. They completely discount the importance of mother's milk for protecting and sustaining life. It should probably also be considered alongside Milk of the Poppy. Interesting. I wonder whether "poppy" is intended as an allusion to "pop," a nickname for a father? If so, we would have mother's milk representing life and father's milk (milk of the pop) representing relief from pain and consciousness and (in sufficient quantity) death.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Last Hearth or surrounding lands makes no difference. 500 miles or 300, both is outside sensible recruiting distance.

Please provide a motivation for Lord Stark to recruit a wetnurse from outside the local populace. It's not as if there is a lack of suitable candidates.

Jon has an entire chapter dedicated to the Wildlings being on starvation rations. Women not having enough milk for their own children (much less anybody elses) included.

From estimates about Winterfell's population. Castle population can make up about one to two percent of the total population of an area, but no more. Otherwise, you're either importing everything from far, far away (not a natural state for anything but dedicated border fortresses like at the Wall), or starving.

Standard medieval european settlement pattern: villages close enough to the market and taxation center to get there with an oxcart full of harvest by late morning, doing shopping or taxpaying, being back home in time for dinner. That's the standard pattern for Westeros as well. Winterfell's inhabitants require about 50,000-100,000 people (and that estimate is lowballing it) in that area.

 

Robert is comparing with the area about K, which is more densely settlet.

 

The problem with Old Nan being from far away is simple: There is no motivation for Lord Stark to waste time like this. None. Try to come up with one before trying to deal with the problems.

Ok, let's set Old Nan aside for now, I clearly think GRRM could easily have had her come from Umber lands but you think she came from a village half a days ride from WF. Cool. I'm happy enough to wait until there's a reveal on her origin. 

What I really want to know though is how did you come the idea that WF and its people who live within it need 50'000-100'000, well you said that's lowballing it so you think it's more likely 100'000, so let's go with that number. 

You think that the surrounding villages and holdfasts around WF, not including the Wintertown which is nearly empty in spring and summer, have 100'000 small folk all working just to feed WF and its people within? 

Is this number supposed to all live in the wintertown when winter hits? How much do you think wintertown holds? 

Robbs host has 18'000 men and thats not counting the men he met on the road south, he has less from when he was readying to leave WF, and these men filled wintertown and had to camp all over the countryside. So wintertown holds less than 18'000 people obviously. 

So where do you think WF houses it's 100'000 small folk in winter? 

Could you lay out for me how you came to the figure that 100'000 small folk live all within a half days ride from WF please?