Heresy 185

[wolfmaid7]

On 6/1/2016 at 9:18 AM, Black Crow said:

Just as a by the by on that one; it has been suggested in times past that this particular group of tree-huggers [who may or may not be the very lot who first created the white walkers] may represent a faction, dissident or otherwise, but would that not negate the principle of operating a hive mind through the medium of the trees?

I find it hard to believe that those that enacted the pact spoke for every COTF and greenseer across Westeros.We did speak about this before and i remember saying humans especially colonial countries of the day and some Western countries now have the tendency to lump things under the same umbrella.It was done with the American Indians in how they were referred,renamed and dealt with on a whole ignoring tribal autonomy.

Its the same thing that may have occured did those that took part in the pact on the IOF speak for those in BR's cave,or the ones in the LOAW or the ones in the Summer Isles? 

I don't think hive mind represents a totality though...It could just represent a collective specific to a grove. 

On 6/1/2016 at 9:28 AM, Tucu said:

Not necessarily. There are some options:

-The destruction of a large number of weirwood trees split the hiveminds into multiple hiveminds.

-A corruption of a part of the hivemind by the absortion of a large number of human minds and abuse of ice magic

-Multiple factions within the hivemind. The Technocore in Hyperion is that type of hivemind with billions of factions constantly evolving.

Or their could simply have been several hive minds which i think is highy possible.

On 6/1/2016 at 9:32 AM, Black Crow said:

Options yes, but I'm also looking historically, not just to the tree-huggers guarding Bloodraven but going back to the creation of the White Walkers. While the network may well have deteriorated over the years I'd expect it to be sufficiently functional to rule out rogue factions way back in the day - or night

I don't think so especially if we are dealing with different hives.We saw from the WB that the COTF were all over.That every greenseer was connected and jived off of each other.I doubt it.They may have feared a lot better.I think individual collectives fought to protect their own and some made bargins with the humans while others may have not.

On 6/1/2016 at 10:16 AM, Black Crow said:

I'm not so sure about that business of acting independently. The whole point of the greenseers is their ability to see and communicate. If one of them decided to step out of line, so to speak, the rest would know pretty damn quick.

I'm not sure what you mean by the the BR vs Others split. Craster's boys aint tree huggers.

See and communicate yes with their collective.Plus here's the thing even if that was the case we are speaking about a system that has collective data on the behavior of humans and how their ways affect everyone.They are all seeing the same info collecting the same data it will be kinda hard to look at all that discern the patters and think anything other than they might be screwed.

And there's the curious buisness of BR told Bran the hour is late they are in the 9th. He's told Bran alot of things, mentioned a lot of things.How long has Bran's been in that cave? Like three months and nothing about taking care of wws.He needs Bran he needs a new body to fight.

On 6/1/2016 at 10:53 AM, Tucu said:

The imagery of the dreamers impaled in ice spires is not that different from the dreamers impaled in wierwood roots. I assume that they can still tap to the weirnet or its icy equivalent.  Plus, as we have only seem a small group of CoTF helping BR, there is still a chance that the rest are still part of a bigger CoTF/WW/Weirnet faction.

Something i brought up before as proof that there's another faction out there.In this case whereas the Weirnet is a medium for the ones in the cave.Ice might be another medium and they are plugged in via the icy spheres.

[Tucu]

We might have 3 different mediums for telepathic interactions. Thus we have the songs of earth (weirnet and greendreams - maybe shade of the evening), ice (ice spires and WW communication) and fire (obsidian candles and visions in the flames). 

Those who sing the song of earth might have created an icy hivemind when they messed with the song of ice to create the WW.

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

If we wanted to go down this road, and correlate characters to the Seven, it probably makes more sense to correlate them to the virtue/ideal that each of the Seven represents, rather than searching for literal crones, or matching characters based on the tools they use.

Father: Judgment, Justice
Mother: Fertility, Compassion, Mercy
Warrior: Courage, Strength in Battle
Maiden: Innocence
Smith: Crafts and Labor
Crone: Wisdom
Stranger: Death and the Unknown

Edit: As an example of this principle, we might superficially say Melisandre could be a "crone," if we assume she's much older than she appears, yet a lack of wisdom seems to be one of her defining traits; she has plenty of knowledge, but lacks the wisdom to apply it usefully.

 

The Elder Brother that travelled briefly with Brienne and Pod and told them Sandor was dead, mentioned they were waiting on the seventh ruby...or something to that effect, and I think he was referring to seven people that represented the seven aspects of the Faith. Sandor was their seventh...the Stranger, and I believe Robert was their Smith.

 

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

My take on the lead up to the rebellion was that either Jon Arryn or Rickard Stark was masterminding the potential usurpation, while Rhaegar's friends and supporters were pushing him to depose his father, a step Rhaegar himself was reluctant to take, as evidenced in his (granted, limited) characterization, and his final conversation with Jaime Lannister.

IMO, Tywin Lannister was keeping his options open, and may have even been leaning toward the Rhaegar end of things. It's important to remember that he served as Hand for almost all of Rhaegar's life. Tywin may be awful on an interpersonal level, and ruthless, but he's also an incredibly competent steward for the realm, and by all accounts the Seven Kingdoms prospered despite Aerys rule, because of Tywin--it was the lords that most thoroughly despised and feared Aerys.

With all of that in mind, we might reasonably assume there was a relationship between Tywin and Rhaegar; probably not friendship, but Rhaegar might have at least respected Tywin, and there may have been a belief that the two could work together, even after Aerys and Tywin had fallen out.

I'm not saying the two were necessarily working together, only that Tywin was probably at least maintaining the appearance of being receptive; after all, there's no guarantee that Rhaegar would have lost at the Trident - even though Tywin's army would have begun marching well before that battle was decided - and there's also no guarantee that Lyanna would die and open up Robert's marriage options.

 

Bingo to the bolded above. Tywin maintained an appearance of being receptive to both sides. That's how he pulls off these deceptive plots.

[Mother of Dragons]

On June 1, 2016 at 11:15 PM, Feather Crystal said:

She wasn't the only one. There were several sources.

Nope, but I was first! Yay!

& thanks for the qualifier, @wolfmaid7, glad to see you back online. I want to come back to this Aeron chapter and discuss, but I magically got this weekend off, and we're highballing our nads off in the backyard right now roasting a Cochon de Lait (Cajun microwave from my LSU days). 

Ciao for now!

[TheMiddleHero]

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

It would be difficult to accept point 8 if you haven't read steps 1-7. You can read my full essays through the links in my signature, specifically Eating the Dragon's Tail and The Queenmaker, but I'll lay out a condensed version here.

Prior to the Rebellion there was the planning stage, and many readers suspect that Rhaegar was tooling up support to overthrow his father, Aerys II.  The Harrenhal tourney was cover to gather sympathetic Houses to Rhaegar's cause. Officially it was hosted by Lord Whent, but there were rumors that the money behind the event was Tywin Lannister. There's also evidence of several great lords joining their Houses as a sort of power bloc. They were already familiar with each other, because they fought the War of the Ninepenny Kings just a few years prior. Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon, Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister were all war buddies and on friendly terms as evidenced by the way they sent each other wards and planned marriage alliances, something Lady Barbery referred to as “southron amitions”. This was highly unusual, because under normal circumstances the great houses didn’t inter-marry. Traditionally, they married into their own bannermen in order to gain or retain influence with their own vassals. Here were the “southron” pairings: Brandon Stark - Catelyn Tully, Robert Baratheon - Lyanna Stark, Jaime Lannister - Lysa Tully.

IMO Tywin was pulling all the strings. He had the biggest ax to grind against Aerys II and was not a man to take insults lightly. He bides his time until he's got a plan in place and then he exterminates his enemies. He is responsible for wiping out the Tarbecks, Reynes, the northmen at the Red Wedding, and I believe he plotted to kill all Targaryens. He used his daughter, Cersei to seduce Robert way before the Rebellion, and he conspired with Jon Arryn with help from the Citadel and the Faith to overthrow the Targaryen reign. This was more than a game of thrones, this was placing control of Westeros back into the hands of the Andals.

Robert was a willing conspirator with Tywin, Cersei, and Jon Arryn. The marriage alliance with the Starks was only a means to bring them to their side, and killing Lyanna and framing Rhaegar for it would secure the north. Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen. He offered her in marriage as a bride for Rhaegar, but was soundly rejected. So he developed an alternate plan that would put her on the throne. Lyanna had to go in order to make way for Cersei to wed Tywin's chosen king.

I expect a revelation that the Arryns were fervent members of the Faith. Maester Pycelle was a big promoter of Tywin, and I believe the Faith saw Robert as a way to wrest control of the Seven Kingdoms. Robert is a classic narcissist. He has charisma...winning people to his side, but underneath was an inflated self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and lack of empathy for others. We only saw flashes of his true self whenever he and Ned fought over the killing of children: Rhaenys, Aegon, Viserys, and Daenerys. Robert called them all dragon's spawn.

While Rhaegar was "down south", and while Rickard and Brandon were on their way to Riverrun, Maester Walys somehow takes Lyanna out of Winterfell. Robert, who was dressed in a suit of armor that looked like Rhaegar's armor, and with men disguised as Rhaegar's men, abduct Lyanna and took her to a remote area where they planned to kill her. The Queenmaker chapter hints that it was a well, but that may just be symbolic as the Lannister's frequently used wells and water to drown their enemies. Arthur Dayne rescues Lyanna from her captors, but not before she is injured much like when Myrcella was cut by Darkstar. Everyone thought it was Rhaegar...even Lyanna.

 

 

Very cool, thanks. Not sure I agree wholeheartedly, but would like to have time to run through your more thorough essays. Some interesting propositions happening, especially with Tywin being more involved than initially thought. Will add it to my waiting for TWOW reading. I read a lot in my free time, about the only thing I watch on TV is HBO on Sunday. Been a bad non fiction reader lately though, need to correct that.

[Black Crow]

I think that Tywin is very much a dog who barked in the night; strangely absent at crucial moments

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Elder Brother that travelled briefly with Brienne and Pod and told them Sandor was dead, mentioned they were waiting on the seventh ruby...or something to that effect, and I think he was referring to seven people that represented the seven aspects of the Faith. Sandor was their seventh...

I think its reasonable to interpret the seven rubies as seven people, especially as I have a feeling that's the only time the number of rubies is alluded to and earlier references to the armour although unspecific give the impression there were more.

I'd have to disagree on Sandor though. He might well be one of the rubies, but if the Elder Brother was still waiting for the 7th ruby to wash up...

Taking this on a little further though, if we do say for the sake of argument that its so and that Sandor was the 6th; who were the preceding five and is it significant that to "qualify" Sandor was a broken man seeking peace and redemption?

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, Mother of Dragons said:

Nope, but I was first! Yay!

& thanks for the qualifier, @wolfmaid7, glad to see you back online. I want to come back to this Aeron chapter and discuss, but I magically got this weekend off, and we're highballing our nads off in the backyard right now roasting a Cochon de Lait (Cajun microwave from my LSU days). 

Ciao for now!

 

I wouldn't brag about illegally tape recording copyrited material.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think its reasonable to interpret the seven rubies as seven people, especially as I have a feeling that's the only time the number of rubies is alluded to and earlier references to the armour although unspecific give the impression there were more.

I'd have to disagree on Sandor though. He might well be one of the rubies, but if the Elder Brother was still waiting for the 7th ruby to wash up...

Taking this on a little further though, if we do say for the sake of argument that its so and that Sandor was the 6th; who were the preceding five and is it significant that to "qualify" Sandor was a broken man seeking peace and redemption?

If you were the Elder Brother and you were walking with two people who knew who Sandor was, especially if you're trying to convince them that he's actually dead, then he can't then say he was their seventh. The seventh is the Stranger, representing death. Sandor's horse was named Stranger and the Elder Brother said they had him in their stalls.

It would be interesting to explore who may be the Faith's seven people and whether or not these people will be actively and knowingly be working with the Faith.

Edited to add:  I'd like to point out that since the Elder Brother is speaking about collecting Rhaegar's seven rubies that this is a connection between Robert and the Faith since it was Robert's blow from his warhammer that killed Rhaegar and won the crown. 

Septon Meribald tells Pod that Brienne is a warrior maid upon a quest. After asking about a room at the inn the next line calls Gendry the "boy smith".  Gendry is Robert's bastard son, so if Gendry is the boy smith, Robert is the Smith.

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, TheMiddleHero said:

Very cool, thanks. Not sure I agree wholeheartedly, but would like to have time to run through your more thorough essays. Some interesting propositions happening, especially with Tywin being more involved than initially thought. Will add it to my waiting for TWOW reading. I read a lot in my free time, about the only thing I watch on TV is HBO on Sunday. Been a bad non fiction reader lately though, need to correct that.

Thank you. I am happy to hear that you plan to read some of them. I appreciate your feedback even if you don't agree with me.

[Mother of Dragons]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think its reasonable to interpret the seven rubies as seven people, especially as I have a feeling that's the only time the number of rubies is alluded to and earlier references to the armour although unspecific give the impression there were more.

I'd have to disagree on Sandor though. He might well be one of the rubies, but if the Elder Brother was still waiting for the 7th ruby to wash up...

Taking this on a little further though, if we do say for the sake of argument that its so and that Sandor was the 6th; who were the preceding five and is it significant that to "qualify" Sandor was a broken man seeking peace and redemption?

 

Why not the seven gods? Too obvious?

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If you were the Elder Brother and you were walking with two people who knew who Sandor was, especially if you're trying to convince them that he's actually dead, then he can't then say he was their seventh.

 

Given that Sandor [assuming he is the gravedigger] is not identified as anyone, there's no sense in the Elder brother pretending that they are still waiting for number seven. I'm happy with the theory that he may be one of the "rubies", but there's still another to be washed up - which is why I'm wondering why Sandor may have "qualified" and who the others might be as this may help predict the identity of the seventh who is yet to come.

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, Mother of Dragons said:

 

Why not the seven gods? Too obvious?

The gods might well give us clues, but essentially I'd say we're looking in the first instance at five people who have so far washed up [whether literally or metaphorically] at the monastery, who share something in common, and probably something if not directly connected to the Trident they are at least connected through the Game of Thrones - I'm not necessarily talking major players, but there has to be some kind of connection. And then there's the seventh yet to come 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The gods might well give us clues, but essentially I'd say we're looking in the first instance at five people who have so far washed up [whether literally or metaphorically] at the monastery, who share something in common, and probably something if not directly connected to the Trident they are at least connected through the Game of Thrones - I'm not necessarily talking major players, but there has to be some kind of connection. And then there's the seventh yet to come 

You could go that way with it. In the past, there was much debate on other threads about the seventh ruby and how those gems represented the Targs. Jon being the seventh. But, yes, there were far more than seven rubies on Rhaegar's armor so that doesn't really cut it.  My conclusion was...  Obviously after finding six washing up they are waiting for the seventh because that is the number of the faces of the god they worship. The last on the list is the Stranger. Not many give thought to the Stranger in worship. Yet here at the Isle they ate awaiting the total of the seven aspects of the Faith. 

I won't go so far as to say these guys are looking forward Death to come knocking, but with the war just passed, the instability and winter on its way,, who's to say they aren't quietly preparing for something momentous. (Think about the Sept which Catelyn visits with the drawing of the Stranger as a shadow with star eyes.)

As human visitors who have 'washed up' on the isle, Brienne is the latest to do so. Sandor is already there, but he is not death or otherwordly. Just a quiet grave digger. At least for now.

Sudden thought. Brienne doesn't fit the totality of the Stranger either,  but she does fit the bill for 'neither man nor woman.' At least in the eyes of most folks she does. Pod can't even keep it straight. Ser, my Lady. Heh. I cant say where her story is going or that she will become an instrument of death, but I see some dark days ahead of her. Just saying.

[Black Crow]

24 minutes ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

You could go that way with it. In the past, there was much debate on other threads about the seventh ruby and how those gems represented the Targs. Jon being the seventh. But, yes, there were far more than seven rubies on Rhaegar's armor so that doesn't really cut it.  My conclusion was...  Obviously after finding six washing up they are waiting for the seventh because that is the number of the faces of the god they worship. The last on the list is the Stranger. Not many give thought to the Stranger in worship. Yet here at the Isle they ate awaiting the total of the seven aspects of the Faith. 

I won't go so far as to say these guys are looking forward Death to come knocking,..

Not at all, but there was a clear implication in what the elder brother said that they were looking towards completing the full set and it is that set rather than any one part of it which is important.

[LordImp]

Whats the heretics general view on the shadowbinders ? Quathie especially. 

[Black Crow]

From my point of view the biggest problem with looking at Quaithe is an almost complete lack of information.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

From my point of view the biggest problem with looking at Quaithe is an almost complete lack of information.

Exactly. The same goes with Melisandre's "Melony, lot 7"...right now it seems pretty random.

[LordImp]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

From my point of view the biggest problem with looking at Quaithe is an almost complete lack of information.

Yeah. But do you think Quathie and the shadowbinders have a important role to play? 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Yeah. But do you think Quathie and the shadowbinders have a important role to play? 

It's hard to say, but I think their place in the story is not dissimilar to that of the CotF, where they don't have a lot of narrative prominence, nor is the present story really "about" them, but they may be important to the history and lore of the world. For whatever reason, the shadowbinders seem to keep turning up in proximity to Dragon Business.

Besides Quaithe attaching herself to Dany, and Melisandre trying to wake dragons from stone, there's also Aegon V consulting shadowbinders before the tragedy at Summerhall, and a brief blurb in the WB that says histories of Asshai suggest that dragons were first tamed in the Shadow, and the Shadowlanders later passed that lore onto the Valyrians.

In that regard, I think their significance is largely limited to whatever influence Quaithe wields with Dany, in much the same way that BR and the CotF's significance to the present story is whatever influence they wield with Bran.