[Spoilers] EP605

[ginny11]

13 hours ago, hallam said:

I can't see that happening either. Or the Night's King would simply mark someone rather than kill them to get past the wall.

Of course they don't. Just like they are still whining about Shireen's burning being 'fan fic'. They are absolutely convinced that doesn't happen in the books despite confirmation it does and the fact that it is really obviously going to happen in Shireen's first book chapter.

When they find out R+J= nothing they are not going to believe it either.

What do you think "promise me, ned"  means? Considering that Ned says he's paid a high price to keep that promise, it must be something significant.

Edited for typo

Edited May 24, 2016 by ginny11

[RadSam]

D&D really can't do anything without getting bashed, can they? Honestly, it will have absolutely no effect so who cares? Seriously? It was a random name in a list of random names. The viewers won't know the families mentioned, what does it matter if they have a little fun with it?

1 hour ago, madchad said:

A little bit dissapointed wth the whole hodor dying. I was hoping that Bran was going to warg into Hodor and take Meera's maiden head first.

Whaaaat 

[mdrichey]

8 hours ago, lancerman said:

You do realize that GRRM once juxtaposed a house with a blue beetle sigil and a green arrow sigil side by side just to make an inside comic book reference, right? Or the time he created a piece of history to reference his favorite team winning the Super a Bowl.

Its not a big deal. 

El Guapo was being sarcastic, as his mention of "House of Jordayne of the Tor" makes clear.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I thought it was a great episode.  Big reveals on WW origins and Hodor's name.  Took me a while to get my head around the Bran/Hodor time loop but it makes sense.  This is how I understood it...  

Bloodraven realised their time was almost up once the nights King had found Bran, so he had to pass on as much knowledge as he could before Bran left.  The knowledge is the key to Bran saving the world and this is why Bloodraven and Bran were locked in to the weirnet throughout the attack - Bran needed the knowledge to survive and fulfil his destiny, so he had to take the risk and count on the Children, Meera and Hodor protecting Bran.  Bloodraven also knew he had to take Bran to the point in time where they broke Hodor's mind in order to get them back to this point. Without that happening, Hodor wouldn't have been Bran's legs after his fall, he wouldn't have been there to protect Bran on his journey north, Bran wouldn't have been able to skin change him, Bran, in short, would never have made it to Bloodraven.  A lot of people commenting that it was all pointless, but I think we'll see later that it was all completely necessary for Bran to get there and to gain the knowledge in order to overcome whatever happens next.  This could literally save the world.

It's heartbreaking what happened to Hodor - I actually cried when I realised the significance of 'hold the door' - but I am consoling myself with the fact that he was a hero who saved Bran multiple times and played a pivotal role.  This will be shown as even more important in the events to come.  If things had been different, Wyllis the stableboy would have died another time in another way without anyone taking much notice.  I'm not saying that makes it alright, I'm just saying that his life and death had meaning and purpose.

Varys being unnerved by the Meereen red priestess was very interesting.  What was the name in the fire??!! I wonder what she knows about Jon too.

Arya and the theatre was very moving.  Nice Richard E Grant appearance! Not nice warty knob, but a suitable response to the whingebag complaints of gratuitous nudity 

I was unsure about LF meeting Sansa & Brienne by himself - very risky for someone so calculating! She could have brought anyone! I wondered if he'd chosen molestown because he could hide some reinforcements there if things got nasty.  I don't believe him at all about the Blackfish.  I think he's just trying to get all the big houses, Starks included, to take each other down and then take what's left for himself. He'll probably end up as Margaery's next husband . Now Brienne is off to the river lands, im hoping we'll see the Brotherhood again... maybe Gendry will finally resurface! 

Seems like they are combining Euron and Victarion into one character.  He doesn't look like Euron is described but if it's a combined character rather than 100% Evil Euron then that doesn't matter much.  I did wonder if they cast an actor with a resemblance to Alfie Allen because he was going to turn out to be Theon's real father.  Well, he did sleep with Victarion's woman in the book...

On a lighter note...

Did Euron remind anyone else of Lord Flashheart from Blackadder? Surely it can't be just me! 

 

[El Guapo]

59 minutes ago, mdrichey said:

El Guapo was being sarcastic, as his mention of "House of Jordayne of the Tor" makes clear.

Thank you. I thought it was quite obvious.

[dbunting]

11 hours ago, El Guapo said:

It is a big deal. Only a couple of complete hacks would name a minor house to honor one of their writer friends.  D&D should stick to the houses in the books, such as House Jordayne of the Tor.

 

So GRRM is also a hack in your opinion since he named Ser Patrick Star after his friend, a Cowboys fan after losing a bet on a Giants - Cowboys game? GRRM said in an interview that he did this, so it is fact. He is the person WunWun (a Giant) killed by smashing him around while drunk. 

NVM, just saw the sarcasm post. Can we make a sarcasm symbol so all can recognize it? I am sarcastic as hell in real life but have trouble reading it in written form!

Edited May 24, 2016 by dbunting
Posted on sarcasm that I missed!

[Hangatyr]

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I thought it was a great episode.  Big reveals on WW origins and Hodor's name.  Took me a while to get my head around the Bran/Hodor time loop but it makes sense.  This is how I understood it...  

Bloodraven realised their time was almost up once the nights King had found Bran, so he had to pass on as much knowledge as he could before Bran left.  The knowledge is the key to Bran saving the world and this is why Bloodraven and Bran were locked in to the weirnet throughout the attack - Bran needed the knowledge to survive and fulfil his destiny, so he had to take the risk and count on the Children, Meera and Hodor protecting Bran.  Bloodraven also knew he had to take Bran to the point in time where they broke Hodor's mind in order to get them back to this point. Without that happening, Hodor wouldn't have been Bran's legs after his fall, he wouldn't have been there to protect Bran on his journey north, Bran wouldn't have been able to skin change him, Bran, in short, would never have made it to Bloodraven.  A lot of people commenting that it was all pointless, but I think we'll see later that it was all completely necessary for Bran to get there and to gain the knowledge in order to overcome whatever happens next.  This could literally save the world.

Here's what I dont understand: Wasn't Bran already controlling Hodor when the attack started? The episode doesn't make it clear that this control was through Wyllis - we only see Wyllis being warged by the end of the episode. The boostrap paradox explanation is compealing, but either it is wrong, or the show failed to make it clear. Or did I miss something?

Edited May 24, 2016 by Hangatyr

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

3 minutes ago, Hangatyr said:

Here's what I dont understand: Wasn't Bran already controlling Hodor when the attack started? The episode doesn't make it clear that this control was through Wyllis - we only see Wyllis being warged by the end of the episode. The boostrap paradox explanation is compealing, but either it is wrong, or the show failed to make it clear. Or did I miss something?

I need to watch again, but I thought that Meera was trying to wake Bran from the vision/trance because they needed him to skinchange Hodor to fight and run from the attackers.  Bran has skinchanged him every time they've had a scary conflict situation on their journey (Queenscrown tower, Craster's & outside the cave) as he's too afraid to deal with this type of thing, and we know now why.  

I think either (1) Bran accidentally made some kind of a link between past Hodor/Wyllis and present Hodor which caused Hodor/Wyllis to be permanently traumatised at the realisation he had heard his own death or (2) he broke Wyllis mentally by skinchanging him (a big no no with humans in the books) and at the same time, Wyllis could hear what Bran could hear, which was Meera screaming "hold the door", and it stuck.

I'm hoping this bit in the book will have more in-depth explanation, but there's only so much you can to on TV without giving someone a big long monologue to explain it. 

[Hangatyr]

36 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I need to watch again, but I thought that Meera was trying to wake Bran from the vision/trance because they needed him to skinchange Hodor to fight and run from the attackers.  Bran has skinchanged him every time they've had a scary conflict situation on their journey (Queenscrown tower, Craster's & outside the cave) as he's too afraid to deal with this type of thing, and we know now why.  

I think either (1) Bran accidentally made some kind of a link between past Hodor/Wyllis and present Hodor which caused Hodor/Wyllis to be permanently traumatised at the realisation he had heard his own death or (2) he broke Wyllis mentally by skinchanging him (a big no no with humans in the books) and at the same time, Wyllis could hear what Bran could hear, which was Meera screaming "hold the door", and it stuck.

I'm hoping this bit in the book will have more in-depth explanation, but there's only so much you can to on TV without giving someone a big long monologue to explain it. 

One strong point for the bootstrap paradox: Brynden had to be trying to teach Bran something by going to the past at that critical moment. I mean, the cave was under attack and they both were strolling through the past.I can think of two kind of lessons to be taught, one practical and other more philosophical. The practical is more obvious: "Look, Bran, you can change the past". What's the problema with this kind of lesson? Well, like Brynden said, "the past is already written, the ink is already dry". I think that's the problem with the bootstrap paradox: even if you can go back in time, you won't be able to change anything - in the best (or worst) case, your attempt to change the past will be the cause of the event that you were trying to change in the first place. And that's a strong point against the bootstrap theory: The power to change the past is useless.

Now there's another thing that Brynden could be trying to teach Bran by showing him Hodor's past. What if Brynden foresaw the cave attack years before current events? What if he decided that Hodor would very important to Bran's mission and tried to show this to Wyllis (and thing went really bad, like we saw)? I know, this is a very long shot, but by showing Hodor's past, Brynden could be trying to explain how important Bran's mission is, and that sacrifices would be needed to fulfill that mission.

[Into the Weirwood]

7 minutes ago, Hangatyr said:

One strong point for the bootstrap paradox: Brynden had to be trying to teach Bran something by going to the past at that critical moment. I mean, the cave was under attack and they both were strolling through the past.I can think of two kind of lessons to be taught, one practical and other more philosophical. The practical is more obvious: "Look, Bran, you can change the past". What's the problema with this kind of lesson? Well, like Brynden said, "the past is already written, the ink is already dry". I think that's the problem with the bootstrap paradox: even if you can go back in time, you won't be able to change anything - in the best (or worst) case, your attempt to change the past will be the cause of the event that you were trying to change in the first place. And that's a strong point against the bootstrap theory: The power to change the past is useless.

Now there's another thing that Brynden could be trying to teach Bran by showing him Hodor's past. What if Brynden foresaw the cave attack years before current events? What if he decided that Hodor would very important to Bran's mission and tried to show this to Wyllis (and thing went really bad, like we saw)? I know, this is a very long shot, but by showing Hodor's past, Brynden could be trying to explain how important Bran's mission is, and that sacrifices would be needed to fulfill that mission.

I strongly believe in the second option. I think he knew what was going to happen and for that reason pulled Bran into the vision (otherwhise it'd make no sense to do so during an attack). If Wylis hadn't become Hodor, Bran wouldn't even be there.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Into the Weirwood

[Hangatyr]

10 minutes ago, Into the Weirwood said:

I strongly believe in the second option. I think he knew what was going to happen and for that reason pulled Bran into the vision (otherwhise it'd make no sense to do so during an attack). If Wylis hadn't become Hodor, Bran wouldn't even be there.

The problem is: Who will tell this to Bran now that Brynden is dead? ; /

[Into the Weirwood]

6 minutes ago, Hangatyr said:

The problem is: Who will tell this to Bran now that Brynden is dead? ; /

I've heard some people say that BR was "downloading" all his knowledge (or something like that) into Bran in that short amount of time before his death. So maybe Bran will know this because it was put in his conscience. If that was the case though, why did the last vision took him specifically to Winterfell and the Hodor situation? (I imagine if he was receiving a great amount of knowledge, they'd portray it visually by making Bran see a lot of visions super fast?) And if BR knew what was going to happen all along, why didn't he teach Bran faster?

I think maybe some of the flaws we find when we think about this are caused by the way they had to portray the situation in the show (they can't explain everything), but in the books we'll find more answers.

[Ser Creighton]

So where is Theon going? Will Jon finally get a Eunuch of his very own? Or will Dany collect another. Euron plans on going to Dany, and probably will, so we get the complete parallel if Theon and Yara ally with Jon, and Vic... Euron goes to Dany.

Calling it now, EurVic will not survive 1 Episode with Dany. I guess he could she needs the ships hers got all burnt up on the show. But god that guy is Zero Charisma. Then again we saw how she got the Dothraki, just remove the leader and the rest is yours.  

[Dragon Sharpe]

Flashheart had charisma.  Euron is all "Wuf Wuf".  I do see your point though. Euron would need his own Bob to reach rival Flashheart.

I didn't want the Iron Islands storyline in the show but since let's hope there is some significance to the main plot.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by Dragon Sharpe

[Darkstream]

On 5/23/2016 at 8:00 PM, Tooms said:

You may recall GRRM's  Kathunk speech he gave Tyrion in season 4.

If you are referring to the beetle speech with Jaimie, you do realize that was all d$d.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Darkstream

[throney]

Not sure if it's been said upthread but but the folk at Winterfell are a bunch of arseholes. Poor Willas/Walder, everyone calling him Hodor. He has a real name, use it! How old was he in that scene? 12? 13? That's fricking traumatic.

[hallam]

5 hours ago, Hangatyr said:

The problem is: Who will tell this to Bran now that Brynden is dead? ; /

Brynden IS dead. But he wasn't earlier and he could travel into the future as well as the past. And presumably when Bran travels into the past he will meet Brynden there if he is going back to the same place.

[CrypticWeirwood]

7 hours ago, Hangatyr said:

The problem is: Who will tell this to Bran now that Brynden is dead? ; /

Brynden, of course.

Brynden Rivers isn't just a skinchanger like Varymyr or Orell; he's a greenseer — and now, I think, one of the old gods.

A skinchanger has a second life in one of his possessed creatures, although lesser creatures’ limited wetware cannot support the host mind without it fading.

Greenseers are to skinchangers as skinchangers are to mundane mortals and other lesser creatures. The two most obvious places for Bloodraven’s mind to now reside after his body gave out is in Bran’s wetware or in the weirnet itself.  Either would easily suffice for him to explain these matters, amongst others, to Bran.

Why do you think that tree had his face, anyway?

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

If you are referring to the beetle speech with Jaimie, you do realize that was all d$d.

I suspect that the showrunners may not have been pleased when Uncle Orson scathingly wrote:

But wouldn't it have been nice if HBO had presented an adult version of this masterpiece of fantasy literature, instead of giving us the lonely-14-year-old-boy's version.

This has been reasonably theorized to be a dig at Card’s genocide in Ender’s Game of the “buggers”, an insectoid, beetle-like race of space-faring extraterrestrials.

Understand that Card quite likes A Song of Ice and Fire: notice he calls it “a masterpiece of fantasy literature”. But the show gratuitous nudity, perhaps amongst other things, seems to have rubbed him quite the wrong way.  

Then again, he's hardly alone in this regard.

Edited May 25, 2016 by CrypticWeirwood

[Ty_the_Burnt]

Bit of a double-dip here. Longtime book-reader, show-watcher, and forum-scrounge, first time contributing comment. Figured it's as good a time as any, what with winter finally come at last and all that. Enjoyed reading the varied discussions thus far and just wanted to express a few stray thoughts.

• In northern Wisconsin, there's a myth of a creature known as a hodag, which is essentially a cross between a bull and a crocodile. One of the previous theories suggested Hodor saw something in the crypts of Winterfell that causes his condition. Didn't truly believe that'd come to fruition, but anything's possible, and with the similarity Hodor always reminding me of hodag, I couldn't help but imagine poor, young Walder (Wyllis) and the hodag having a confrontation. Anyways, moving on...
• So it's basically been confirmed that the Children did indeed create the Others as a last-ditch effort to curb the tide of first men into Westeros, after the Broken Arm and the Neck proved fruitless. Some have said that it's a letdown that the Others really aren't' malevolent after all, and it's actually man who's the antagonist to the natural world. Personally, I find it fitting. If there's any True Detective fans out there, all of it reminds me of the tagline from the first season, "Man is the cruelest animal", which in turn was taken from a quote from Nietzsche. It's not exactly a false statement.
• Finally, if anyone would like to add another dimension to their enjoyment of GOT and ASOIAF, I'd recommend listening to the album 'GODS OF THE EARTH" by THE SWORD. Musically it's not for everyone, though I hope you can at least appreciate it for what it is, but the band and album took heavy influence from ASOIAF and the works of H.P. Lovecraft (how can you go wrong?). Beyond just the style, the lyrics directly reference the source material. A few sample song titles are "To Take the Black", "Maiden, Mother, and Crone", and "Lords". Specifically though, in regards to "The Door" and the remaining season(s), give "HOW HEAVY THIS AXE" a listen; considering the album was released in 2008, it's chillingly spectacular how much that track sets the tone for recent events and the wars still to come.

Well folks, that's all. Thank you for reading and bearing with me. In the future I will practice more brevity. Valar doeharis.