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7 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

I disagree.  If that is her only purpose, then she is unnecessary.  We simply need a rift between Jaime and Brienne, and that can happen in many, many ways without introducing LSH.

Then lets agree to disagree. Everything LSH has been leading up to this Jamie/Brienne thing. That's right now the centerpiece to the LSH storyline and actually the first consequential things she's done besides exist. Aside from that, all we really got was the LSH reveal and some Freys being killed. Who cares if they hold that off until her plot builds up more?

She would have been doing nothing for 2-3 seasons and we would have been getting filler to remind us she existed.

Edited by lancerman

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8 minutes ago, Dornishwoman's Husband said:

Now that Dany has promised the conquest of Westeros to her khallasar (which may also be the entire Dothraki civilization right now), surely she must return to Meereen first to deal with her slaver enemies. If she is to secure the freedom to all former slaves, she must wipe out every single slave master in Essos. To do so, the slave cities of Yunkai, Astapor and Volantis must be purged.

That scene where Benjen killed all those wights reminds me of that scene in the book #3, where Coldhands rescues Sam and Gilly. I hope that is not a confirmation of Coldhands being Benjen in the books.

D&D called him Benjen coldhands. Which means that he is both book characters even if they are not the same. I suspect the book characters were originally the same and split. After all, imortal beings tend to accumulate. The 3EC would have an army of them.

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Just now, lancerman said:

Then lets agree to disagree. Everything LSH has been leading up to this Jamie/Brienne thing. That's right now the centerpiece to the LSH storyline and actually the first consequential things she's done besides exist. Aside from that, all we really got was the LSH reveal and some Freys being killed. Who cares?

The situation is already set up for a rift between Jaime and Brienne.  Unlike the books, Brienne has already sworn herself to Sansa...which is where the rift will lie.  Jaime is trying to take down the Blackfish...Brienne is trying to get the Blackfish to help out.  There's no need for a third party in this situation.  And the Freys have already shown us that they are being humiliated.  LSH is simply not required.

If you want to agree to disagree, that's fine.  But that doesn't change the fact that the show has pretty much made her useless to the story at this point.

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Har! Why is everyone so convinced that this episode is a nod that Dany is 'finally going to Westeros?' She gave the same speech that Drogo gave in S1. She's been talking about going west since the first season. I must have missed something because this thread is oozing with people believing that Dany will be landing on the shores of Westeros by next week's episode. She still needs to go back to Mereen and settle things since her departure. And with the way Tyrion has handled the fading out of slavers, I imagine it won't be a simple good bye. She will make a big deal of it. Also, how is she going to get the dothraki onto the wooden horses? Her fleet got burned so I'm guessing she will have to wait for the Greyjoys to make their appearance before she can take her army west. I guess I just don't understand the overwhelming love and joy of the 'Dany is finally going west' jamboree. Not quite yet, folks.

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There are three possible bombshell season endings left:

1) The wall falls

2) Drogon over Kings Landing

3) We get to know Jon's parents.

I think 1 is the end to Season 7. They game of thrones is over because it is now all about the White Walkers. Season 8 is only four episodes. Which makes it essentially an extended length feature film about killing zombies.

Jon will be king in the North by the end of this season. Which makes Drogon the obvious end to season 6.

I don't think we get Jon's parent reveal this season because they don't need it for a blow out ending and the unsullied haven't yet been told that there is a parentage mystery to consider. So there will be a discovery in the crypts of winterfell that raises the question and we will get the suggestion of R+L. But only because it isn't true.

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15 hours ago, plectrum said:

Okay, I realize I'm kind of a nerd for this, but I was kind of hoping she had spotted Quaithe somehow in the desert.  

Me too!

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

There are three possible bombshell season endings left:

1) The wall falls

2) Drogon over Kings Landing

3) We get to know Jon's parents.

I think 1 is the end to Season 7. They game of thrones is over because it is now all about the White Walkers. Season 8 is only four episodes. Which makes it essentially an extended length feature film about killing zombies.

Jon will be king in the North by the end of this season. Which makes Drogon the obvious end to season 6.

I don't think we get Jon's parent reveal this season because they don't need it for a blow out ending and the unsullied haven't yet been told that there is a parentage mystery to consider. So there will be a discovery in the crypts of winterfell that raises the question and we will get the suggestion of R+L. But only because it isn't true.

What exactly do you mean by 2) ? I mean to say what is the context of Drogon flying over KL? A battle? A sack? Because if it is just a dragon flying over the city, that is a bit lame for a season finale. Also, in previous seasons we always had battles in episode 9, so that we can have a taste of the aftermath on the last episode. So, I think if anything Drogon - KL happens this season will actually have to be in episode 9. Is there enough time for that? I don't think so.

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At the first peek of the eyes of Benjen I was so excited--I recognized the eyes!  Unsullied Hubby couldn't understand.  He barely remembered Benjen from season 1.

He also barely remembered Walder Frey, but only for causing the Red Wedding.  Heck, he didn't even remember whose wedding it was, and couldn't recall who is Blackfish (at the repeated mentioning of his name) or who is Edmund Tully (when shown on screen).  It was a good five-minute refresher on Riverlands story/history.

Did Theon + Yara steal enough for Dany?  I remember Euron told the Ironborn last episode to build 1000 ships.  Did the Ironborn have 1000 ships to begin with?

 

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When I read Jaime and Brienne reunite in the books, I have this feeling that when we next see them their course will unexpectedly be diverted from returning to LSH. Martin just writes like that; the character tells you where they are going and they never make it there because fate intervenes. Perhaps the important plot point isn't that LSH gets Jaime and Brienne back together, but what they DO. Why bother with LSH if you don't need her? Especially with only 17 episodes left to the entire series? She was a horrible idea in the books and (IMO) it would be a horrible idea to introduce her on the show. If they don't ABSOLUTELY need her they shouldn't do it.

I think it's more interesting that on the show suddenly Jaime and Brienne are positioned to meet around Riverrun. It's obvious now that it's important, and I don't think it has anything to do with LSH.

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15 hours ago, ToTheWolves said:

Sooo uhhm Jamie and cersei are just going to be together forever from the looks of it. As much as I try to separate books from show...I just can't get with this version of Jamie.

I strongly dislike the way they've changed show-jaime. 

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I'm not completely convinced that Arya is the Waif's target right now. I think the promise that the Waif got from Jaqen was that if Arya didn't kill the actress, then she would get to. 

Then once the Waif kills Lady Crane, the younger actress takes her role. Arya then takes the role of Sansa in the play and travels with them.

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1 hour ago, Big Daddy said:

When I read Jaime and Brienne reunite in the books, I have this feeling that when we next see them their course will unexpectedly be diverted from returning to LSH. Martin just writes like that; the character tells you where they are going and they never make it there because fate intervenes. Perhaps the important plot point isn't that LSH gets Jaime and Brienne back together, but what they DO. Why bother with LSH if you don't need her? Especially with only 17 episodes left to the entire series? She was a horrible idea in the books and (IMO) it would be a horrible idea to introduce her on the show. If they don't ABSOLUTELY need her they shouldn't do it.

I think it's more interesting that on the show suddenly Jaime and Brienne are positioned to meet around Riverrun. It's obvious now that it's important, and I don't think it has anything to do with LSH.

I would love for it to pan out as you say in the books at least.  However, in the books, if Fate intervenes and Brienne and Jaime re-routed as it were, what will happen to Pod???  I am not sure I can trust LSH not to feel that Brienne has betrayed her and that her companions need to die in her absence.  Now one things that kept occurring to me when I read the scene and that the show reminded us of when Brienne swears allegiance to Sansa was something on the lines "I shan't ask anything of you that shall bring you dishonour" and clearly asking her to kill Jaime would amount to this, maybe thinking too much like a lawyer lol but thinking (or mayhaps grasping at straws) that this could be a loophole somehow...

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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First impressions. Mixed feelings. Yes, our wishes are being respected again. Sam takes Heartsbane, Arya takes Needle, Daenerys Stormborn First of Her Name Breaker of Chains etc. takes Drogon who has become totally huge. Bran meets his uncle Benjen. And the long absence of the latter has a very simple explanation. Well, there’re only 17 episodes left. Bran can rest till Season 7 but before this he has to reveal R+L=J to these viewers who somehow missed this interesting theory. Jaime rides to Riverrun under some vague and awkward reasons. Well, in the books he rides there too. The trick with Tommen’s “conversion” is very clever. But the old witch had said very distinctly: gold will be their crowns, gold their shrouds. Arya’s storyline goes as predicted. Jaqen is not a kindly man. The Waif obviously lives her last hours. Somehow the show-writers manage to make her a one-dimentional cold-blooded killer with strange envy/loath towards Arya (who is much younger than her, at least in the books). Anyway, it would be weirdly satisfying if Arya will not kill her.  Once again: the Waif is not Rorge, or Polliver, or Meryn Trant. It’s her work.

The Horn Hill scenes are relatively good. The castle itself is very impressive. The castle cast is, well, not bad. What Randyll Tarly will do now?  

And the rule “3 or more fresh corpses for an episode in Season Six” is not observed in ep6. This is the greatest surprise. (Wights can't be seen as “fresh corpses”. Honestly, I don’t like and never liked these happy skeletons in the TV-version of the saga. It’s not Peter Jackson’s LOTR. I think TV-White Walkers are more sinister.)

 Cersei’s trial is nowhere in sight.

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5 hours ago, hallam said:

I think it is a test of Waif rather than Arya.

The Waif obviously isn't a fully qualified FM. She is also in training but is a year or two ahead. She certainly doesn't fit the character profile. But that is always the problem for baddies, where do you get the hired help. There isn't a craigslist in Westeros.

This makes a lot of sense. I imagine Jaqen must be irritated about how difficult it is to find, or even train, dispassionate killers these days. "Augh! Everyone has opinions these days, and emotions! By the Many-Faced God, someone invent Craigslist!" (I will admit I entertained myself imagining Jaqen trying to compose exactly the right Craigslist ad.) 

4 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I’d like to think that with the Wall now all but gone, House Stark has far graver concerns than Dany’s little game of thrones down in the southlands.  And Jon and Sansa have no army, at least not before the Knights of the Vale crush the Bolton rabble.  All other threats pale before the Long Night.

That said, I do think you're on to something, because it sure looks like Martin is setting things up so that not even one Great House will make it through the War for the Dawn via inheritance through some true-born male heir. There may be a message there.

It's a good opportunity to show the unsustainability of feudal patriarchy, that's for sure--especially during wartime, when men are far more likely to die than women. (And yeah, technically Lannister did just get their male heir back in the game with Jaime being out of the Kingsguard--but I think we can all agree he's unlikely to go settle down at Casterly Rock with some nice girl who's not his twin.) I mean, even if Dany manages to get the Iron Throne, if we believe Mirri Maz Duur, she's not going to bear an heir at all, which means all she's doing is staving off future chaos for a few decades at most.

We do have the Dornish and Wildling examples where women inherit / go to war, and I think it's going to be interesting just how bad the crisis gets--will Westeros go Dornish, basically feudalism with egalitarian inheritance... or will it be bad enough to force them to Wildling-style rule (anarchy? Variation on democracy? Definitely not feudalism anyway). 

Given that GRRM is drawing his inspiration from medieval Europe, I'd say that the best Dany can hope for is a variation on Elizabeth I, hoping like hell that Jon Snow has himself a few children so that, like Elizabeth, she ends up with a northern nephew to pass the throne to. Alternately, you end up like France after the Valois line ended, with so many options that you get the 100 Years' War. Or maybe we skip ahead a lot, and get the French Revolution--I think the Wildlings would favor that option, I can definitely see Tormund getting a kick out of the guillotine... 

I mean, we know from history that once the idea of self-determination hits, monarchies are difficult to sustain. Unless monarchs are willing to give up their power and sit as figureheads, the way the remaining European monarchies have done, they're ultimately doomed. And with the arrival of the Wildlings below the wall, the idea of self-determination has just been set loose. Sure, it's going to take a while, but that aspect of the Wildlings is probably their most dangerous aspect. Not their spears or their bad table manners, but their centuries of self-governance. That's the doom of the kings and great houses, ultimately. 

(Well unless everyone turns into White Walker snacks beforehand.) 

 

4 hours ago, Dornishwoman's Husband said:

Now that Dany has promised the conquest of Westeros to her khallasar (which may also be the entire Dothraki civilization right now), surely she must return to Meereen first to deal with her slaver enemies. If she is to secure the freedom to all former slaves, she must wipe out every single slave master in Essos. To do so, the slave cities of Yunkai, Astapor and Volantis must be purged.

That scene where Benjen killed all those wights reminds me of that scene in the book #3, where Coldhands rescues Sam and Gilly. I hope that is not a confirmation of Coldhands being Benjen in the books.

"Surely she must"... You're absolutely right, IF she's a responsible ruler. I'd say that's a major test she's facing, and I'd say that's a major test she's going to fail with flying colors (and dragons). She wants glory and adulation, not the hard slog that follows it. Also, it's not nearly as easy as wiping out the slavers. After all, that means either wiping out their families (and Dany doesn't like killing children), or leaving children alive who plan to avenge their families and retake their city when they're old enough. There's no good solution there, and like it or not, pragmatic Tyrion's got the right idea negotiating with the slavers. I mean, giving them 7 years was too long, because that's an entire childhood given away, but 3-4 years and substantial help in establishing a non-slave economy is probably the most sustainable way to make lasting change. After all, you have to set up something that will stay functional once the threatening dragons are away in Westeros. But Dany wants to be ideologically pure, and unfortunately for her, effective rulers are rarely ideologically pure. (It's what did in Ned Stark way back when, too. Honor is a good thing, but too much honor makes you a bad politician and ruler. I'd say that's true not just in the Game of Thrones, but in real life, too. Lincoln was way more of a pragmatist than we remember, for example.)  It's why she's a conqueror but not a ruler--you can conquer without compromise, but ruling requires compromise. 

Finally, let's not forget that the Dothraki are a major source of slaves, via their conquests. She's going to be asking former slaves to trust her when she's leading a giant army full of people who enslaved some of them. Plus, taking the Dothraki out of the area may well be helpful in the long run, but unless you plan it right it's also going to leave a power vacuum that any unscrupulous bunch of masters might easily exploit. If Dany plans to leave right now for Westeros, she's condemning that whole area to chaos and collapse. 

 

As to Benjen I'm pretty sure that GRRM said that Coldhands isn't Benjen in the books, and even if he hasn't said that, I think it's pretty clear, given Coldhands' extensive interaction with Bran in the books where Bran does not recognize him, and the difference in the physical description of Coldhands and Benjen, that they are not the same person in the books. This is another point where the show has streamlined several characters into one. 

 

6 hours ago, hallam said:

I was thinking there wasn't time to make ships. It use to take years just to season the wood. Of course they may make ships of dubious seaworthiness.

 I would laugh so hard if Dany's entire, massive army drowns on the crossing, ending her conquest in the most anticlimactic of ways. 

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2 hours ago, 43ry5274rg4ry3n said:

What exactly do you mean by 2) ? I mean to say what is the context of Drogon flying over KL? A battle? A sack? Because if it is just a dragon flying over the city, that is a bit lame for a season finale. Also, in previous seasons we always had battles in episode 9, so that we can have a taste of the aftermath on the last episode. So, I think if anything Drogon - KL happens this season will actually have to be in episode 9. Is there enough time for that? I don't think so.

Since Episode 9 will have the battle of Winterfell, there can't be another battle scene in episode 10. But Drogon flying over Kings Landing would be a sign that Danny is going to be landing there episode 1 of next season.

The season closer establishes the setup for next season. So it isn't the end of the battle for KL, its the beginning.

1 hour ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I'm not completely convinced that Arya is the Waif's target right now. I think the promise that the Waif got from Jaqen was that if Arya didn't kill the actress, then she would get to. 

Then once the Waif kills Lady Crane, the younger actress takes her role. Arya then takes the role of Sansa in the play and travels with them.

I think it is very clear that the Waif's target is Arya and that Arya is prepared.

What was not clear to me is where she was sleeping. Did she go back to the house of B&W? Was it meant to be somewhere else? Seems we lacked a bit of context there.

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Loved Sam finding his balls and making off with Heartsbane! B)  I wondered did he suddenly realise that his father would treat Gilly and little Sam the way he treated big Sam? Also, I'm sure Dickon sniggering at the idea of Sam killing a white walker is what made him want the sword - why should that idiot inherit it just to hang it on a wall, while men of the nights watch need good steel?

I am delighted to see Benjen back, although I am still hoping that, in the book, Coldhands will be Coldhands and Benjen will be Benjen.  Bran now seems to know everything or is fast approaching it. Does he also contain the spirit of Bloodraven or is he just the 'new' 3 eyed Raven?

Margaery totally has a plan and I reckon it's about saving Loras.  Tommen is completely oblivious (like a junior Mace Tyrrell). The high sparrow could be on to her but playing along to get the crown on side for now, because it suits his plans. It definitely looked like she hadn't expected a rescue party. I'm sure Lady Oleanna will be in on the plan before long though, even if Jamie & Cersei are pushed out.  I really hope TV Kevan gets what's coming to him soon.

Interesting that Arya was sympathetic to Cersei in the play.  Another one to be removed from the list?  I am looking forward to a final Arya/waif showdown. Maybe Arya will go back to the house of black & white wearing the Waif's face and kill Jaq'en! 

I don't care if the direwolf cgi budget was sacrificed to pay for Drogon (although I don't believe that only direwolves can pay for dragons), he's a massive dragon FFS!! Great to see him back.  We just need a dragon reunion now with the other 2.  I'll be pissed if they kill of Nymeria and Ghost though.  As we know, things NEVER go according to plans and I think Dany's plans will change when she gets towards Westeros and finds its being beseiged by white walkers. Just as Stannis changed his plan and attempted to win over the 7 kingdoms by saving them from the real threat from beyond the wall, I think so too will Dany.

I thought it was another great episode.  It's never going to be a patch on the books because TV never is, but I'm really enjoying it regardless. 

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5 hours ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

Har! Why is everyone so convinced that this episode is a nod that Dany is 'finally going to Westeros?' She gave the same speech that Drogo gave in S1. She's been talking about going west since the first season. I must have missed something because this thread is oozing with people believing that Dany will be landing on the shores of Westeros by next week's episode. She still needs to go back to Mereen and settle things since her departure. And with the way Tyrion has handled the fading out of slavers, I imagine it won't be a simple good bye. She will make a big deal of it. Also, how is she going to get the dothraki onto the wooden horses? Her fleet got burned so I'm guessing she will have to wait for the Greyjoys to make their appearance before she can take her army west. I guess I just don't understand the overwhelming love and joy of the 'Dany is finally going west' jamboree. Not quite yet, folks.

I agree, I think it's wishful thinking lol (at least on my part) the Dany in Essos plot is sending me to sleep both in books and show and the waste of characters like Tyrion (stuck with the Secoond Sons in the books) Jorah etc is driving me insane too.  If it were a matter of sending her ships and I were rich lol I would tell her to bid for them on e-bay and charge them to my credit card ;)

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Thoughts while watching:

 - Liked Bran's flashbacks, and the introduction of Coldhands. Pretty good opening scene, and it was nice to get flashes of the Mad King. The follow-up wasn't great, but more on that in a minute...

 - Now that things are actually happening with it, I'm enjoying Arya's storyline this season. Still can't stand the Waif though. And I would say in regard to her reactions to "Cersei" that she was dwelling on the thought of having to kill someone she saw as a decent woman, not that she's about to find newfound sympathy and compassion for the woman who took down her father.

 - First week: didn't care about the KL story. Week after that: didn't care about the KL story. Week after that: didn't  care about the KL story. This week: oh my god, how much less can I care about the KL story!?

To be fair, once the Tyrell army arrived, this material was very well-paced and staged. The reveal of Tommen as being on the side of the Sparrows was well-executed, and the transition into Jaime's dismissal was well-handled. On the other hand - if they're going to use the ADwD material for Brienne and Jaime anyway, what the hell was the point of the season-and-a-half detours they've both been on!?

In Brienne's case, she at least intersected with Sansa's story and had a (brief, arguably unnecessary) role in it. Jaime's excursion to Dorne accomplished nothing, and it's meant that he's spent sixteen episodes at this point coasting along with no substantial character development or change.

 - Good casting on Randyll Tarly, and all these scenes were well-paced and performed. Not all that interested though.

 - The reintroduction of Benjen was rather tossed-off, wasn't it? I don't understand why such big moments in this season are just being thrown out without any care or finesse. Remember how Ser Barristan was reintroduced? Where's something like that for the last full-grown Stark?

 - I have the same problem with Drogon's reintroduction too. How does a dragon that big not get noticed by anyone but Dany? That whole ending felt rather underwhelming for me, compared to what I'm sure they intended with it.

Overall feeling: some good stuff, but it just felt a bit lacking IMO. Hard to describe why; things just didn't gel.

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58 minutes ago, hallam said:

What was not clear to me is where she was sleeping. Did she go back to the house of B&W? Was it meant to be somewhere else? Seems we lacked a bit of context there.

I was wondering about that also. Why in the world would she go back to the house of black and white?

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