Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[Pies are coming]

I took it as "I can't possibly tell Jon I just refused a 10,000 men army to our cause", but apparently, she has ulterior motives.

It seems like Sansa has forgotten some Cersei lessons (ok, it's Cersei, but at least Cersei is still alive):

"In the Game of Thrones, you win, or you die" Why did she let Baelish go? Either she tries to make amends... or why letting him go? Sansa should think Baelish sees her as an obstacle, enemy, rival, whatever you name it. If the Vale army is indeed at Moat Cailin, she can have Littlefinger killed in the spot, go fetch the army and pretend Littlefinger died somewhere else in the road.

"They have to fear you more than your enemies". Davos hints at that while Sansa naively thinks she can turn the Karstarks around. In the books, all Northern Houses lost someone at the Red Wedding. This doesn't seem to be the case in the show. Is she going to counter the fear at the Boltons with, what? Honor? Loyalty? Davos already shot loyalty down. Sansa looked rather naive during that meeting.

 

In other words: Kill Littlefinger. Rally the Vale Army. Rally the Tully Army, if possible. With all those men behind Jon, then campaign around the North. The indecisive Lords will fear both Bolton and Starks and loyalty, honor and the Red Wedding will tip the scales to the Starks.

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

8 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Not surprising that she would have trust issues and want some insurance against the possibility that Jon will do what every other person she's trusted except Brienne has done.

I think she didn't want make Jon angry at her if he knew she met again the man who send her to Ramsay

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

No it's because she lied on Jon, no one must lie to the God Jon, lies to The God Jon is punishable by death

Holy strawman!

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

...I guess once Ramsay out of the way, it will be Sansa vs. Jon? That's probably why Jon and Sansa had such a warm and fuzzy reunion, so that when they wind up at odds, it will be that much more heartbreaking. As I said, LIttlefinger is good.

Pretty much. I thought that all the Jon/Sansa stuff last episode was heading towards romance and what not. But apparently in true GOT fashion (Stannis-Shireen), we get a slow, nice build up of the relationship before Sansa does the backstabbing.

[tmug]

I think it is interesting if Sansa would really betray Jon after he supposedly explained to her about the whole Hardholme thing and the For the Watch thing. She would be truly disgusting character, betray a half brother that was literally resurrected from the dead and now she wants him to go through it again. I feel a new "Ned" role has been inherited by Jon Snow, a pawn not a leader. Leaders are behind the scenes in GoT, not the crown.

Was Sansa not even phased by Jon's whole story?? She seems jealous of him as when she referenced him to Ramsay and getting legitimized, she seems to have realized HER claim could be taken (and most likely threatened when R+L=J is revealed). Could she have learned too much from LF, Cersei, and Margery? As much progress as her character seemed to have made, the show made it a point to portray her as the same old Sansa - unless this is the ultimate "play" Sansa is making on everyone. 

I see a Needle reference come into play from S1, Could this ep be a setup for Arya V. Sansa? Arya gets revenge for her "brother" Jon?

Hopefully after Jon beats the Boltons he will also be able to defeat Sansa and the Vale?

[Newstar]

My two cents on Sansa refusing the Vale forces: she didn't want to owe LF anything. 

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

3 minutes ago, tmug said:

I think it is interesting if Sansa would really betray Jon after he supposedly explained to her about the whole Hardholme thing and the For the Watch thing

We all know each westerosi family, Starks are not Greyjoys, they don't kill or betray each other

[Wilnova]

I was wondering when Sansa was going to do shady stuff in the series and I think we are now here. In the books she has already started (Being complicit in the slow poisoning of SR) being shady and assisting LF despite knowing about him doing shady stuff.

3 minutes ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

We all know each westerosi family, Starks are not Greyjoys, they don't kill or betray each other

Except Sansa has already betrayed her family once. Sansa as a character was created because not all siblings get along and GRRM wanted that one Stark who was not in complete sync with the rest. I think we will get some Stark Vs Stark stuff once LF 'enters the fray' once again towards the end. With the Vale and Tully armies behind her, I think Sansa will want to be Queen in the North opposing Jon who wins the battle for WF.

 

[tmug]

1 minute ago, Newstar said:

My two cents on Sansa refusing the Vale forces: she didn't want to owe LF anything. 

Oh boy, Ned also made the fatal decisions all in the name of his "honor". Refusing LFs army may be the worst decision in her short tenure as "leader". LF's original plan was revealed to us where he promises Cersei to wipe out whoever's left of the Battle of WF. GRR already has been reported to say the ending is "bitter sweet". What does that really mean?

[Boudica]

2 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

I was wondering when Sansa was going to do shady stuff in the series and I think we are now here. In the books she has already started (Being complicit in the slow poisoning of SR) being shady and assisting LF despite knowing about him doing shady stuff.

Except Sansa has already betrayed her family once. Sansa as a character was created because not all siblings get along and GRRM wanted that one Stark who was not in complete sync with the rest. I think we will get some Stark Vs Stark stuff once LF 'enters the fray' once again towards the end. With the Vale and Tully armies behind her, I think Sansa will want to be Queen in the North opposing Jon who wins the battle for WF.

 

 

If Sansa wants to be the Queen in the North or the leader in the North, Jon would not oppose her. He did not present himself or campaign for himself as the leader of the North. It would be a illogical motive for Sansa to follow up on. 

There will be nothing left of a Tully army, the army is done. 

[joaozinm]

So, is littlefinger an enemy or an idiot? I love how dnd just show their own inconsistences and them leave without answer.

[Smoke317]

I think initially Sansa refused LF because she didn't want his help. But LF ever the master manipulator, left her with those parting words of Jon being her half brother and it worked.  When the time came she made it clear that Jon was indeed a bastard and it was "her" name that would rally the northern houses. Now this shows that either Sansa still has LF's hooks in her and can still be manipulated by him or she knows he's the ultimate schemer and manipulator and she's taking the "direction" he gave her and will use it for her own benefit (and ultimately double cross LF in the end.  Hopefully this is the case). Regardless, I didn't like her lying to Jon. Not because he's my favorite character but because Jon has always placed his family above himself. And he'd never do anything to manipulate or scheme against his siblings. He'd give his life for any and all of them. And if he took Winterfell from the Boltons, he would cede it to Bran, Rickon, Sansa, or Arya without any complaint or hesitation. Also, I think the wolf cloak Sansa made for Jon was nothing more than manipulation. It seems like she's using Jon for her own personal gain. Something that she's learned from her true father figure LF. Notice how when she gave Jon the cloak, he was truly honored and touched by it. But what did Sansa do?  She basically walked on by afterwards. No return of the sentimentality. None of the closeness that was there from their reunion. Sansa has become a player in the big game now and the big game is dangerous. Let's hope she doesn't lose her way or get in too far over her head. It'll be interesting to see how she responds when the other Northern Houses rally to Jon and name him King in the North. 

[throney]

I would hate it if they are setting up Stark vs Stark. A final judgement can only be made if/when the lie gets out. The cloak giving scene though seems to contradict this though, at least to me.

On a positive note, I love that she made the wolf dress. Now that is the Sansa of old perfect needlework.

[Wilnova]

21 minutes ago, Boudica said:

 

If Sansa wants to be the Queen in the North or the leader in the North, Jon would not oppose her. He did not present himself or campaign for himself as the leader of the North. It would be a illogical motive for Sansa to follow up on. 

There will be nothing left of a Tully army, the army is done. 

So Jon would just shrug his shoulders and be all a-ok with it? I can see that from the earlier Jon who did not want to fight. But Sansa is forcing him to fight and is pushing him to do so as Ned's son and rightful Warden of the North. After he wins, and Sansa is all lol jk, I am going to be queen, you think Jon would be ok with that? That's Sansa using him to achieve her goals, and I don't think that Jon is a fool to just nod his head and go his way.

Jon's fight is with the Others. Even if they win WF, I don't see him squatting there for long. I think Sansa/LF will be the push that gets him to leave WF.

The 'Inside the episode' view from Benioff and Weiss is also interesting. They say that if she is a 'clean, pure' stark, that she would have trusted Jon. The fact that she does not, is indicative of LF having an effect on her. And I do think they have to connect this Sansa to her book version somehow. Book Sansa is doing some not so squeaky clean things in the Vale which hints that her hands are not going to be so clean in the future. We have yet to see that from show Sansa. To be a player of the game (As everyone wants her to be) one must get ones hands dirty.

There is no reason for her not to tell Jon the truth. Jon is fighting for her and Rickon and he is shown to be pragmatic and intelligent. The only reason she is holding back is LF planted that seed about Jon being her half brother.

[Princess of Dragonflies]

5 minutes ago, throney said:

I would hate it if they are setting up Stark vs Stark. A final judgement can only be made if/when the gets out. The cloak giving scene though seems to contradict this though, at least to me.

On a positive note, I love that she made the wolf dress. Now that is the Sansa of old perfect needlework.

I would hate this, too. But I feel like the reference to the needlework, her giving the cloak to Jon and then the play Arya watches... I have a feeling that history is about to repeat itself 

[Smoke317]

3 minutes ago, Princess of Dragonflies said:

I would hate this, too. But I feel like the reference to the needlework, her giving the cloak to Jon and then the play Arya watches... I have a feeling that history is about to repeat itself 

Interesting. Didn't connect the dots with the play. The girl playing Sansa in the play is jealous of the other actress because she is better than her. A hint that Sansa may be a little jealous of Jon...  Good catch. 

[Smoke317]

5 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

So Jon would just shrug his shoulders and be all a-ok with it? I can see that from the earlier Jon who did not want to fight. But Sansa is forcing him to fight and is pushing him to do so as Ned's son and rightful Warden of the North. After he wins, and Sansa is all lol jk, I am going to be queen, you think Jon would be ok with that? That's Sansa using him to achieve her goals, and I don't think that Jon is a fool to just nod his head and go his way. That's way too much loyalty to someone who was only using him. Though they do seem to be undermining Jon a lot in these scenes.

Jon's fight is with the Others. Even if they win WF, I don't see him squatting there for long. I think Sansa/LF will be the push that gets him to leave WF.

The 'Inside the episode' view from Benioff and Weiss is also interesting. They say that if she is a 'clean, pure' stark, that she would have trusted Jon. The fact that she does not, is indicative of LF having an effect on her. And I do think they have to connect this Sansa to her book version somehow. Book Sansa is doing some not so squeaky clean things in the Vale which hints that her hands are not going to be so clean in the future. We have yet to see that from show Sansa. To be a player of the game (As everyone wants her to be) one must get ones hands dirty.

There is no reason for her not to tell Jon the truth. Jon is fighting for her and Rickon and he is shown to be pragmatic and intelligent. The only reason she is holding back is LF planted that seed about Jon being her half brother.

This is exactly what I'm thinking.  Sansa has been around LF too long and I believe that in the end she will make the mistake of choosing others or her own selfish goals over her family. Let's hope not. But it's sure looking that way and if D&D said that then hmmm...  

[iceheart91]

I really did love the way Sansa stood up for herself against Littlefinger. I think, however, his snarky little comment about Jon only being her half-brother did some sort of number on her. In a way, he was like, "well, he's not Robb, so he won't have as much influence on the Northern houses as you do". 

I was really confused as to why she lied to Jon about LF. Why lie to pretty much the only person in Westeros that she knows will always be on her side? That seems rather foolish, and I'm sure he'll find out about it one way or another. Perhaps she's just having trust issues, and that's understandable, but if she's genuinely just trying to manipulate Jon and the others, then I'm not sure how to feel about her. I have a bad feeling this will all come around to bite her in the ass in the next few episodes. I hope to god I'm wrong.

[Joao]

Long time lurker and first time poster...

Sansa is totally pregnant.  And she gave it away in the dialogue.  While we were all searching for deeper meaning of her body hurting from abuse...what she was truly trying to tell us was that she was pregnant.

And how fitting was that new dress to hide this fact. 

[VarysWig]

7 minutes ago, Joao said:

Long time lurker and first time poster...

Sansa it totally pregnant.  And she gave it away in the dialogue.  While we were all searching for deeper meaning of her body hurting from abuse...what she was truly trying to tell us was that she was pregnant.

And how fitting was that new dress to hide this fact. 

I didn't even think that! My friend who doesn't even watch the show said after that scene.. Ok so she's pregnant right? I was like oh.. Shit. I can see how that makes sense and I hope not

[Newstar]

Judging from Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger, Ramsay didn't cut her at least, since Sansa instead of answering Littlefinger's "Did he cut you?" proceeds to call the "other things" Ramsay did "things that ladies aren't supposed to talk about" but that "brothel keepers" know about. So at least Sansa doesn't bear any physical scars (unlike Book Jeyne, who had bite marks on her breasts). Small mercies, I guess.

13 minutes ago, Joao said:

Long time lurker and first time poster...

Sansa is totally pregnant.  And she gave it away in the dialogue.  While we were all searching for deeper meaning of her body hurting from abuse...what she was truly trying to tell us was that she was pregnant.

And how fitting was that new dress to hide this fact. 

Hey, Joao! Welcome to the boards!

I'm pretty sure if she was pregnant she would throw it in Littlefinger's face. I'm less sure, but pretty confident, that Sansa would not be as functional as she appears to be if she believed she was carrying Ramsay's child. 

Her statements about still being able to feel what he did to her seemed to me a reference to having memories of the abuse he inflicted on her. I didn't read "secret pregnancy" in any of that. As for her new dress, her old dress was looking pretty dingy and drab, so it makes sense that she would want to change it up to sell the Northern lords on supporting her (especially with wolf embroidery). Book Sansa was very aware of the language of clothes, so it's nice to see TV Sansa making clothes to communicate specific messages as well.

With all that said, Sansa could be referencing a pregnancy. We did get a reminder that Ramsay was doing everything in his power to impregnate her ("he did what he liked with the rest of me as long as I could still give him an heir").