Bakker's TGO Excerpts II: Mining our Merest Fraction [Spoilers]s

[themerchant]

I knew you'd get it if you thought about it

Or maybe something else. Are we communicating in good faith?

[Sci-2]

I think the funniest thing is we're clearly running dry of revisiting the same topics again and again, if my offhand guess spawns an actual debate on the final series' completion.

We'll be eating each other Great Ordeal style if TGO somehow doesn't come through in July. 

[Madness]

It exists, Sci.

My insatiable #2 at SA keeps track of Bakker artifact collectables - six ARCs have sold on eBay already (three of which are members at SA) and a seventh has 9 days of bidding left on it.

If any of the Westerosi are the fourth, fifth, and sixth ARC buyers, let me know and you win access to a private subforum at SA. Bakker fans being the unique, interesting individuals they are - having already preordered their hardcovers anyways - have been sharing the ARCs around between them. There are... eight members, so far, broken by the narrative happenings of TGO and commiserating as they can therein, with another four either reading right now or expecting mail soon.

Shit's real, people .

[Lord Patrek]

On 23/5/2016 at 3:35 PM, Kalbear said:

Thanks, MSJ. Link to the prior thread for future use.

@Lord Patrek - any surprises as to our reactions to the excerpts so far?

To be honest, when you guys go into all that metaphysical stuff, I often lose track of what's going on!

But you guys are excited and that's what's important!

Patrick

[Callan S.]

Have we discussed the halo's around the hands? I thought it was to do with Kellhus - maybe only what he is doing is good, not him. But then ages back in the story they find a mosaic of an ancient prophet with halo's around his hands. So maybe it was just a difference in 'universe'. But now Mimara has a halo around her head, not her hands. So maybe the location of the halo does have significance?

[JGP]

1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

Have we discussed the halo's around the hands? I thought it was to do with Kellhus - maybe only what he is doing is good, not him. But then ages back in the story they find a mosaic of an ancient prophet with halo's around his hands. So maybe it was just a difference in 'universe'. But now Mimara has a halo around her head, not her hands. So maybe the location of the halo does have significance?

The halos have come up a few times. Oddest case was Serwe seeing them around the hands of a skin-spy that was impersonating Kellhus.

Other than that, if memory serves, it was the Prophet Inri Sejenus of antiquity that had the haloed hands-- which was one of the signposts that brought Achamian around to worship Kellhus in the way back days before he started to suspect otherwise. One of the issues there, for Achamian anyway, was that Sejenus could purportedly heal, and Kellhus cannot. 

The location of the halo could very well have significance, I just have no idea what it could be. Currently.    

[Kalbear]

The haloes for mimara only show up with the judging eye.

Hmm. Does serwe have or had the judging eye?

[JGP]

Jeez, we had so few PoVs... she was pregnant too, wasn't she?

She saw Kellhus as the God though, or a representation thereof, while Mimara seems to have seen the blasted taint of the damned on him, no?

 

I still haven't decided if I'm continuing with this series, and until I do, a reread isn't going to happen-- so forgive a man his memory. 

[Callan S.]

6 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

The halos have come up a few times. Oddest case was Serwe seeing them around the hands of a skin-spy that was impersonating Kellhus.

Other than that, if memory serves, it was the Prophet Inri Sejenus of antiquity that had the haloed hands-- which was one of the signposts that brought Achamian around to worship Kellhus in the way back days before he started to suspect otherwise. One of the issues there, for Achamian anyway, was that Sejenus could purportedly heal, and Kellhus cannot. 

The location of the halo could very well have significance, I just have no idea what it could be. Currently.    

Ah yeah, the skin spy!

So the halo can be a missfire. Interesting if it's just a missfire for Kellhus to see it as well.  I wonder if the judging eye sees past these halo's? Not that I treat the judging eye as a reliable witness. But if ' Wanting something to happen actually influences outcomes. ' then maybe that's what makes the halo hands happen? Even on a skinspy, because wanting to happen.

[Kalbear]

@Michael Seswatha Jordan - I hadn't realized this until now, but please go back and edit the title of this topic to say (spoilers). it's a board rule that spoilers can be discussed openly and without tags - but the topic needs to clearly indicate that. Thanks!

And please try and respect the wishes of those who don't want to be spoiled.

[Sci-2]

13 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

.One of the issues there, for Achamian anyway, was that Sejenus could purportedly heal, and Kellhus cannot. 

The location of the halo could very well have significance, I just have no idea what it could be. Currently.    

I've always wondered why others haven't asked this? I know we've gotten some speculation of Kellhus being a Prophet of War rather than a Prophet of Healing, and that if he did miracles of his "brother" men would not be tested in their faith....

But has this been explicitly addressed his TTT? Maybe it's merely my memory that falters...

<humor>insert Nonman joke here</humor>

[JGP]

I don't recall either.

The Prophet of War v. Prophet of Faith idea is compelling, but on the surface doesn't seem to jive with what we've been learning about the Outside. What I mean to imply, I guess, is that if either 'role' is implicit, in purpose and nature made or set to oppose [if you will] then it kind of begs an extrapolation to what it has been set against [the splintered Hundred and their Gluteny?] and by what [The 'Godest' sleeps lightly, dreams of peace or struggles with nightmares or something?]

I don't know.

[Hello World]

13 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

She saw Kellhus as the God though, or a representation thereof, while Mimara seems to have seen the blasted taint of the damned on him, no?

You're forgetting that Kellhus was devine until he 'gave Serwë'  away at the circumfix and Cnaiür swore to bear her instead, thus becoming Meppa. Hence the dream with the monk and the beast exchanging places. There was a post on it ages ago but I won't be bothered to find it on my phone.

[JGP]

6 minutes ago, Hello World said:

You're forgetting that Kellhus was devine until he 'gave Serwë'  away at the circumfix and Cnaiür swore to bear her instead, thus becoming Meppa. Hence the dream with the monk and the beast exchanging places. There was a post on it ages ago but I won't be bothered to find it on my phone.

I'd love to see it, cause I can't forget something I never knew or was exposed to. That's interesting.

[Kalbear]

So we know that the second series is an homage to LotR, right - we have Akka/Mimara being the ringbearers, we have the Great Ordeal being at least part of the Gondor/Rohim fight. I'm not sure what part of LotR's homage is Esmenet, but let's skip that.

What part is Serwa/Sorweel? if it's going to be like RotK, the obvious correlation is that they'd serve as the Pippin/Merry part. I'm not sure if they're going to be molested by sentient trees any time soon, but them going to Ish and finding a really horrible set of nonmen who are corrupted by Palantir-like tech makes sense, no? 

[JGP]

It parallels nicely. 

Maybe Bombadili though?  

[Kalbear]

Just now, JEORDHl said:

It parallels nicely. 

Maybe Bombadili though?  

Gods, I hope not. A Bakker Bombadil would cause me to drop the series entirely. 

(and if Bakker and his fans are listening and wanting to talk about this at TSA, I promise you - having a weird-ass godling who rescues people randomly while singing happy songs about rape and having a hot young thing as his concubine will make me drop the series - so get your writing campaign in)

[JGP]

Lulz

[themerchant]

A good way to avoid spoilers is to not ask questions about what happens in the The great ordeal to those that have read it.

Serwe in my opinion is just the first to succumb to his false divinity, that's what Bakker meant with her being the Cipher of the series.. As opposed to the interpretation Locke has taken over the years.

The haloe'd hands cast zero light. They make no shadows they aren't objectively Kellhus's, Serwe sees them on who she thinks is Kellhus, It's the "light of delusion" they aren't even the same colour/tone as what is ostensibly the god's view of holy/good halo's.

 

My feelings on the LOTR Homage is we might see Akka get to Ishterbenith and through some revelation, maybe Serwe pregnancy,maybe from wearing Nil'giccas's nimil robe. Which would then have the Nonman chariots riding to Dalgiash. To save or betray.

 

 

[Sci-2]

Didn't Kellhus - either personally or via the Traveller - talk to Cleric at some point?

Additonally, if he has access to Akka's consciousness* he would know by now that even the Intact of Ishterbenith   are in the thrall of Golgotterath.

*Again, William James idea seems to hint at the Bakkerverse ->

Quote

Out of my experience, such as it is (and it is limited enough) one fixed conclusion dogmatically emerges, and that is this, that we with our lives are like islands in the sea, or like trees in the forest. The maple and the pine may whisper to each other with their leaves. … But the trees also commingle their roots in the darkness underground, and the islands also hang together through the ocean's bottom. Just so there is a continuum of cosmic consciousness, against which our individuality builds but accidental fences, and into which our several minds plunge as into a mother-sea or reservoir.