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Heresy Branch Office E05


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2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm thinking of this particular passage from the WB, since technically the main text says the CotF gathered at Moat Cailin.

While I'm still minded to link the creation scene with Bran's actual vision of a sacrifice at Winterfell, the mention [presumably exaggerated] of 1,000 human prisoners being sacrificed rather suggests that in book terms the tree-huggers didn't create a single "Nights King" but rather created a whole slew of walkers.

Only men of course which is why they now need Craster's sons to keep their numbers up.

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Can I go a bit off-topic here?

An overlooked sentence at the beginning of TWOIAF (p.20) states, "The gods the children worshipped were the nameless ones...". R'hllor's dualistic adversary is 'The One Who Cannot Be Named'. I'm making the connection that we have an ancient nature religion from the West and an ancient fire religion from the East. Both involve blood magic and human sacrifice. I wonder if some of the invading Andals brought R'hllor worship up north, which was the specific threat that prompted the COTF to create the Others. I like a theory a poster presented recently that says the decisive event that has caused the Others to prepare an attack on the Wall was the appearance of Stannis and Melissandre with R'hllor banners north of the Wall and their intolerant fundamentalist crusade to completely eliminate that which is not of 'The Lord of Light' (which I maintain is basically Satan)

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7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Can I go a bit off-topic here?

An overlooked sentence at the beginning of TWOIAF (p.20) states, "The gods the children worshipped were the nameless ones...". R'hllor's dualistic adversary is 'The One Who Cannot Be Named'. I'm making the connection that we have an ancient nature religion from the West and an ancient fire religion from the East. Both involve blood magic and human sacrifice. I wonder if some of the invading Andals brought R'hllor worship up north, which was the specific threat that prompted the COTF to create the Others. I like a theory a poster presented recently that says the decisive event that has caused the Others to prepare an attack on the Wall was the appearance of Stannis and Melissandre with R'hllor banners north of the Wall and their intolerant fundamentalist crusade to completely eliminate that which is not of 'The Lord of Light' (which I maintain is basically Satan)

Though I agree R'hllor is basically Satan, I don't think the Andals brought R'hllor to Westeros. the Andals brought the faith of the 7 (the humans with faith in humanity, basically).

There were some old theories that dragons were first created in Asshai by blood sacrifice and breeding humans with demons or something, which eventually led to the destruction of Asshai and the Long Night as a kind of planetary dragon extinction event. I think it's also possible that Targs are genetically engineered (for want of a better phrase (demon engineered/sorcery engineered?)) people specifically for dragon bonding.

It is possible that R'hllor is opposed to the Children's gods - but I just thought these nameless ones were all the old Pagan deities of Westeros, like the Drowned god.

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3 minutes ago, ummester said:

Though I agree R'hllor is basically Satan, I don't think the Andals brought R'hllor to Westeros. the Andals brought the faith of the 7 (the humans with faith in humanity, basically).

There were some old theories that dragons were first created in Asshai by blood sacrifice and breeding humans with demons or something, which eventually led to the destruction of Asshai and the Long Night as a kind of planetary dragon extinction event. I think it's also possible that Targs are genetically engineered (for want of a better phrase (demon engineered/sorcery engineered?)) people specifically for dragon bonding.

It is possible that R'hllor is opposed to the Children's gods - but I just thought these nameless ones were all the old Pagan deities of Westeros, like the Drowned god.

I'm speculating that a small minority of Andals brought R'hllor worship to Westeros even though the Faith of the Seven was the version that took hold. A long shot. And there may be nothing in the phrase "the nameless ones", but on the other hand it could be a subtle plant. It fits in with my bigger theory that the Children, Others, First Men, Starks are all ultimately on the same side of the impending Manichaen Armageddon. 

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I think you are correct in supposing the Others & First men will unite under the Starks for team ice and that R'hllor will have Dany as a champion for team fire - but I think there will be a 3rd team in the Armageddon, that of team human (or team 7), represented by King's Landing and uniting under Jamie.

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I think the 'middle ground' will have slaughtered each other - the outcome of the whole 'game of thrones'. "You win or you die" said Cercei. Well, nobody wins, all die. The remnant will join 'Team Ice' in the face of the barbaric behaviour of the Dothraki and Iron Born. The Westerosi will realise the Others are basically less savage versions of themselves!

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5 hours ago, hiemal said:

Possibly, but that's another ball of wax. The transcendence I was referring to is the interconnected web of the weirwoods, the weirnet, that allows some people, bound to weirnet by ancestral blood sacrifice and chosen by some sort of genetic lottery, to see and even in a limited way interact with space and time in a non-linear fashion, at least as regards the apparent past. Perhaps the past is the gift of Ice and the future (by means of prophecy) that of Fire?

I was kind of sticking it to religion on the religious thread, as what was resurrected from paganism? :P. Dreadful 3.4. The coin with 2 sides, but the same coin, fire/ice, death/life. if rebirth continues these lasting cycles, do we also need separate cores, because killing the boy to save the world isn't quite what was in mind? Avatar was understood what was lost in corruption is its solution and the explanation to its opposition and magics. Ice brought fire Lightbringer, the night gave way to spring, but then it repeated?

 

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A significant factor to add to the religion side may be the Drowned god which if I remember my World of Ice and fire correctly predates the andals and even possibly the first men as I believe the first men discovered evidence of settlement on the Iron islands predating their own colonisation of the islands? If I remember correctly, the drowned god within the ironborn's religion opposes a storm god with the drowned god having some association with fire and the storm god being associated with ravens? Sounds oddly familiar to the differences between R'hllor and the Great Other and indeed connections can be made with the significance ravens obviously. Of course, not really much in the show regarding the drowned god so may be more relevant for novel canon as opposed to show canon.

Might be relevant though since the Ironborn religion which is significantly different from the other religions found in westeros must have gotten to the iron isles somehow.

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21 minutes ago, Charles Stuart said:

A significant factor to add to the religion side may be the Drowned god which if I remember my World of Ice and fire correctly predates the andals and even possibly the first men as I believe the first men discovered evidence of settlement on the Iron islands predating their own colonisation of the islands? If I remember correctly, the drowned god within the ironborn's religion opposes a storm god with the drowned god having some association with fire and the storm god being associated with ravens? Sounds oddly familiar to the differences between R'hllor and the Great Other and indeed connections can be made with the significance ravens obviously. Of course, not really much in the show regarding the drowned god so may be more relevant for novel canon as opposed to show canon.

Might be relevant though since the Ironborn religion which is significantly different from the other religions found in westeros must have gotten to the iron isles somehow.

Adding in the stranger tides from Braavos? I dunno for the jibe, what's dead may never die sound more like an icicle?

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

Though I agree R'hllor is basically Satan, I don't think the Andals brought R'hllor to Westeros. the Andals brought the faith of the 7 (the humans with faith in humanity, basically).

There were some old theories that dragons were first created in Asshai by blood sacrifice and breeding humans with demons or something, which eventually led to the destruction of Asshai and the Long Night as a kind of planetary dragon extinction event. I think it's also possible that Targs are genetically engineered (for want of a better phrase (demon engineered/sorcery engineered?)) people specifically for dragon bonding.

It is possible that R'hllor is opposed to the Children's gods - but I just thought these nameless ones were all the old Pagan deities of Westeros, like the Drowned god.

R'hllor is not equivalent to Satan. The R'hllor religion borrows a lot from Zoroastrianism including the dual gods; one god represents order, light and good and the other chaos, darkness and evil. It also borrows their end of the world scenario: the world will fall into winter and a saviour figure will guide the forces of order to battle; during that battle the world will burn to purify it and all the souls from evil.

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58 minutes ago, Tucu said:

R'hllor is not equivalent to Satan. The R'hllor religion borrows a lot from Zoroastrianism including the dual gods; one god represents order, light and good and the other chaos, darkness and evil. It also borrows their end of the world scenario: the world will fall into winter and a saviour figure will guide the forces of order to battle; during that battle the world will burn to purify it and all the souls from evil.

To become a heretic, becoming philosophical. Without one there isn't another. When in relying on saviors, the world always pays from their opposition, but they are the same. If only we would learn that in order to evolve, means none, because there is only life not another pretense founded through hypocrisy in opposition.

Doubting that thomas will translate, because of what is judas becoming ingrained into psyche condemning any later forgiveness, and we will always need a superhuman to role-model? Hence something else messianic?

Totally off topic, and possibly considered heresy from its philosophy? Not entirely relevant to this topic.

 

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10 hours ago, Charles Stuart said:

.... imprison the NK and WW somehow with bus imprisonment ending somehow leading to the long night with the newly released NK seeking vengeance against the children.

as to current motivations, who knows. will have to wait and see.

Don’t know about their current priorities, but for the reawakening part, I still believe that it was Mance that had a hand in it. Mance says that the only reason for which he established himself as King Beyond the Wall is to protect his people from the incoming WW threat, and go south of the Wall to relative safety. But in order to pass the Wall, he is digging around for the Horn of Joramun, that can destroy the Wall. But this makes no sense, as he later states himself. Why bother to go south, if you plan to do it by destroying the Wall, thus making it easy for the WW to pass south as well, and they end up dead anyway. He shouldn’t be digging for the horn if he was afraid of the WW. The Wall would be the only thing keeping them safe while south of it.

I think that Mance started his reign using the usual spiel. Amass a big army, pass the Wall, raid big time and return. Or if the campaign was very successful, create a beachhead there(hold several big castles and continue the raiding from a big base south of the Wall). But in order to limit the losses he would incur against the NW when passing the Wall, he started looking for the Horn of Joramun. Now, the question is, why was he so damn sure he would find a legendary horn lost for 8000 years(if such a thing even exists). Maybe he has some dreams about it? And if so, who was the one sending those dreams to him?

Anyway, he starts looking for the horn, digging up ancient burial grounds(shouldn’t that be a big no no in on itself?). During those excavations, something was released from there. We find this in a conversation Ygritte has with Jon. “We never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never fond the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!”. So, they let all those shades loose in the world. She doesn’t say ghosts or spirits, but shades, which has a more darker connotation. Also, that use of the word makes me believe that she wasn’t talking metaphorical, as many believed, she could have used other words to describe the shadowy entities if that was the case.  But Jon is too preoccupied to ask about those shades, so we never hear about this ever again. I think that was the moment the WW were released into the world. And Mance had to undo his mistake by trying to save as many of his people and bring them south of the Wall, and having to do that while also keeping the Wall intact, because once he was south of it, it would become the best line of defense against the WW. The timing seems to fit. When Mance is starting to amass his army, we see the first WW attacks in the last 8000 years, when that NW patrol finds them after they just killed a wildling camp.

Or maybe he did find the horn of Joramun and used it. After all, the horn is said to ‘wake giants out of stone’ and bring the Wall down. But it’s meaning isn’t as direct as that. The ‘giants’ are the WW, and they will attack the Wall and bring it down. But if this were to be the case, why go through all the trouble of sealing the WW, then create an item that could release them? Maybe the first King Beyond the Wall and the Children north of the Wall created it as a failsafe. Maybe they created the Wall to defend themselves against threats from the south, but it was later commandeered by the enemy, and it’s initial purpose subverted. And the horn was something like: if you ever try to kill us or attack us from the south, we blow this horn, and even if we die as well, we’ll make sure you won’t survive us by long. A ‘break in case of emergency’ type scenario.

And if you really want to put a tinfoil hat on your tinfoil hat, you could say that those shades might not be the WW, but some other sort of entity, probably in direct opposition with the WW. Like the fire to their ice.

On my first re-read, the first thing that come to mind when reading that paragraph was shades-shadow babies. So, if the Children used black magic to create the WW, maybe nature/magic tried to balance things out by creating an opposing force, aka shadow babies. Or maybe the humans used their own blood magic rituals to fight the Children’s WW, aka shadow babies. Now the WW can turn children into new WW, and the followers of R’hllor can give birth to shadow babies, and the fight is on. Or maybe the shadow babies ritual is a warped human ritual of the one the Children used to make the WW. Same as the humans making the wildfire flasks/grenades, similar to the projectiles used by the Children in battle(if that is the case in the books?!?).

Anyway, whatever those shades were, it was probably the starting point of the entire debacle.

Ahhh, how I missed the heresy threads. (removes the triple layered tinfoil bodysuit).

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23 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

“We never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never fond the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!”

What do we make of this line from WOIAF p33?

Quote

In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves 

Cold Servants - wights, or something else??

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Oh I love reading the Heresy forums (although I only posted once or twice and it has grown so quickly that I wasn't able to read it all :p) so I am happy to find this show thread!

So I have related questions: 

  • The White Walkers (on the show at least and maybe in the books too, as they seem to need Craster's babies too) seem to be unable to reproduce naturally. They obviously need to turn humans to ensure their race's survival. Now, we can deduce that if the WW's goal is indeed (as the men and COTF suspect in Westeros) to just genocide mankind, this would mean their race would ultimately be extinct, as there wouldn't be anyone left to turn. They sure don't look friendly but... They can't only be killing machines. In the show, they spared Samwell twice (once before the Fist of the First Men attack; a mounted walked saw Sam hiding behind a rock and let him be. The second time when the Walker came for Gilly's baby. It shattered Sam's blade and pushed him aside instead of killing him. This is why I believe they must have another agenda, and they are certainly not pure evil. Do you guys or does heresy have a theory about what could be the WW's endgame?
     
  • Now books and show related. In aGoT, Bran looks in the heart of Winter and sees "sees spires of ice rising up to impale him and the bodies of a thousand dreamers before him". Which makes me think that the Walkers (maybe even the NK) are protecting themselves from greenseers (I guess "dreamers" refers to people who have visions like Bran and can project their consciousness in other places through space-time. This could explain why the NK seemed to be so keen to catch and kill Bran (and Bloodraven at the same time): he knows his demise will come from a greenseer and I was thinking: could Bran's dream about impaled dreamers mean that there have been, during the past thousands of years, attempts from other greenseers to understand what's in the heart of winter and to defeat it? It would also add weight to the theory that the NK was/is himself a greenseer, he seems to have been building protection against greensight. 
     
  • Now going on books Coldhands territory: we've been discussing for years the fact that Coldhands tells Bran "(I am) your monster, Brandon Stark". Now that we knows (show only though but likely to happen in the books) that Bran already mingled with the past through his visions and that he is responsible of some of the events that are currently taking place, maybe this can explaining what Coldhand is? Maybe Coldhands is a creature created by future Bran during one of his visions to rescue, help and guide Bran and co when they are beyond the Wall. Which would explain why Coldhands seems to be "unique" (he seems to be a wight who kept his mind). Maybe he was warged by Bran during one of Bran's vision while he was being turned into a wight, hence allowing him to retain his "soul"?

    Anyway, thanks for the interesting discussion and looking forward to read your opinions :) please feel free to direct me to another topic if my questions have already been addressed elsewhere :)
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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

R'hllor is not equivalent to Satan. The R'hllor religion borrows a lot from Zoroastrianism including the dual gods; one god represents order, light and good and the other chaos, darkness and evil. It also borrows their end of the world scenario: the world will fall into winter and a saviour figure will guide the forces of order to battle; during that battle the world will burn to purify it and all the souls from evil.

Edited 1 hour ago by Tucu

Umm...

one god represents order, light and good - kind of like God, or Jesus?

and the other chaos, darkness and evil - kind of like Satan?

end of the world scenario - kind of like Revelations?

Sure, the Red Faith may have their Savior and destroyer all arse about, but I fail to see how any dualistic religion is not somewhat like Zoroastrianism? There's a good guy and a bad guy, no room for grey here. Pick a side and follow us to righteousness!

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Quote

The White Walkers (on the show at least and maybe in the books too, as they seem to need Craster's babies too) seem to be unable to reproduce naturally. They obviously need to turn humans to ensure their race's survival. Now, we can deduce that if the WW's goal is indeed (as the men and COTF suspect in Westeros) to just genocide mankind, this would mean their race would ultimately be extinct, as there wouldn't be anyone left to turn. They sure don't look friendly but... They can't only be killing machines. In the show, they spared Samwell twice (once before the Fist of the First Men attack; a mounted walked saw Sam hiding behind a rock and let him be. The second time when the Walker came for Gilly's baby. It shattered Sam's blade and pushed him aside instead of killing him. This is why I believe they must have another agenda, and they are certainly not pure evil. Do you guys or does heresy have a theory about what could be the WW's endgame?

My guess is that is just survival. You have Men increasingly encroaching in their territory and you have the believers of R'hllor assembling a global army to get rid of them by burning the world. 

Quote

Now books and show related. In aGoT, Bran looks in the heart of Winter and sees "sees spires of ice rising up to impale him and the bodies of a thousand dreamers before him". Which makes me think that the Walkers (maybe even the NK) are protecting themselves from greenseers (I guess "dreamers" refers to people who have visions like Bran and can project their consciousness in other places through space-time. This could explain why the NK seemed to be so keen to catch and kill Bran (and Bloodraven at the same time): he knows his demise will come from a greenseer and I was thinking: could Bran's dream about impaled dreamers mean that there have been, during the past thousands of years, attempts from other greenseers to understand what's in the heart of winter and to defeat it? It would also add weight to the theory that the NK was/is himself a greenseer, he seems to have been building protection against greensight. 

My understanding of that section is that the dreamers impaled in ice are the Others' version of the Weirnet. In a similar way that there is a symbiotic relationship between the CoTF and the Weirwoods, there is a relationship between the Other's dreamers and the WW.

Quote

Now going on books Coldhands territory: we've been discussing for years the fact that Coldhands tells Bran "(I am) your monster, Brandon Stark". Now that we knows (show only though but likely to happen in the books) that Bran already mingled with the past through his visions and that he is responsible of some of the events that are currently taking place, maybe this can explaining what Coldhand is? Maybe Coldhands is a creature created by future Bran during one of his visions to rescue, help and guide Bran and co when they are beyond the Wall. Which would explain why Coldhands seems to be "unique" (he seems to be a wight who kept his mind). Maybe he was warged by Bran during one of Bran's vision while he was being turned into a wight, hence allowing him to retain his "soul"?

I always understood that the "monster" in that quote was Bloodraven. Quote for reference:

Quote
Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"
"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.
"A monster," Bran said.
The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

 

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25 minutes ago, Mayura said:

They can't only be killing machines. In the show, they spared Samwell twice (once before the Fist of the First Men attack; a mounted walked saw Sam hiding behind a rock and let him be. The second time when the Walker came for Gilly's baby. It shattered Sam's blade and pushed him aside instead of killing him. This is why I believe they must have another agenda, and they are certainly not pure evil.

Indeed - people tend to look over these little things because the books and show is doing a good job of directing most to see things a certain way - pick the non human side, as it were. No matter how bad the humans in this saga get, there must always be something worse than us, right?

I watched an interview with John Carpenter on a horror movie documentary recently - he said something like this:

There are 2 types of evil we use in storytelling - the first is them, the other, the enemy, those who are outside the safety of our groups fire. The second type, which is a much harder story to tell, is that the evil is in us, all of us, that there is more to fear in those you share your fire with than those outside.

For some reason, I don't think GRRM is going for the simplicity of the first type of story.

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7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I always understood that the "monster" in that quote was Bloodraven. Quote for reference:

 

Thanks for your input :) 

About the "your monster" quote, I agree the discussion is misleading, because Meera interrupts a conversation in which Bran talks about Coldhands to inquire about the 3EC. But at the end of the chapter, Jojen says something along the line of "either we go with Bran's monster (designating Coldhands) or we die..." so I still don't know whether "monster" designated Coldhands or BR. 

But in any case, Bran might have "created" the 3EC as well. Which would explain the whole setting of the story and why the COTF and Bloodraven are waiting for Bran, imo. If Bloodraven is the last greenseer, Bran is something else I guess.

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I don't see R'hllor as being the evil god and the Great Other being the good god, as I think they are both basically evil. There'll probably be a battle involving the Starks and the Great Other versus R'hllor and Dany, but the ultimate battle will be between humans and the gods. This fits in with the anti-religion theme of the books.

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