LadyAlisande Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, GabeSnow said: As GRRM said, the battle for good and evil occurs more so in the human heart than in a cheesy, one dimensional conflict between the "bad guys and the good guys". Which is why I am curious about the White Walker's motives. In every other aspect of the story, he has refused to make cliched Villains and Good Guys battle each other, so I wonder if the Walkers are actually bad guys. Maybe there is more to their agenda than we can see?? I like this idea. If you come at the novels and show with the assumption that there are no gods, only different forms of magic, and there is no "good" or "evil," only people corrupted by power, what's being set up could be described as a battle between two kinds of magic: ice/CotF-based magic, and fire/blood magic. Both have dark elements as well as the potential to do good. The walkers are the manifestation of the darkest part of ice magic, while arguably dragons, shadow demons, etc. are the dark manifestations of fire magic. Neither side is necessarily right or wrong, but they do balance each other, with humanity caught in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GabeSnow Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 I don't know mate. I'm pretty sure the WW are against the living, and it seems their own agenda is pretty simple; destroy everything living and make everyone experience the same suffering they have. Who knows, but it seems fairly certain Dany and her dragons are being set up to fight the Walkers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 15 minutes ago, LadyAlisande said: I didn't realize the 3 Eyed Raven had control over the Night King -- just regular warg-ing control, or some other magic? Is that from the books? I don't think Bran will send the walkers to King's Landing, that doesn't seem like his MO. He is gaining wisdom and insight, not turning into a vengeful brat. It's very possible -- and I think this has been hinted -- that he wouldn't have such strong powers had he not been paralyzed. Completely agree. It's not in the books - GRRM has said that it's by no means clear that the legendary NK ever actually existed. Both 3ER and NK are portrayed so radically different in the show that's it's astounding. At least whatever they get up to in the show won't spoil TWOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 1 minute ago, GabeSnow said: Who knows, but it seems fairly certain Dany and her dragons are being set up to fight the Walkers... of course it does, that's how plot twists work. Seems Stannis was being set up like he loved his daughter. Seemed Robb was being set up as the hero who would save the day. and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GabeSnow Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, ummester said: It won't be good guys and bad guys. If it's team Stark and white walkers vs team Lannister with the human armies and faith of the 7 inside the city and team Dany with her dragons and Red faith, who do you want to win? And what's the bet no-one does, that the game of thrones leads to the thrones destruction. Yeah you could be right. GRRM has said he is not interested in the whole "Good vs Evil" Cliche. He has also said that the only allegory he has included in his work is the horror and stupidity of war. Maybe the end is a clusterfuck where no one wins, everyone loses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyAlisande Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 1 minute ago, GabeSnow said: I don't know mate. I'm pretty sure the WW are against the living, and it seems their own agenda is pretty simple; destroy everything living and make everyone experience the same suffering they have. Who knows, but it seems fairly certain Dany and her dragons are being set up to fight the Walkers... That seems to be the case. But what if there's more nuance? I mean, the walkers themselves are undead zombies, they clearly don't have free will. But what if the Night King sees and knows more and has magical divination, such that he is aware of the red faith and Dany with her dragons, and is preparing not to annihilate humanity but to save the world from the true evil -- blood/fire magic? Unlikely perhaps, but Martin dislikes simplistic good/evil battles, so it's worth considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GabeSnow Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 Totally. That's what makes the whole thing so great. WHO KNOWS what's going to happen? It may not be so simple as the good guys win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 2 hours ago, grufolo said: This oh, and the dagger used to create the WW was probably just a magical item sharpened as a dagger so to be able to penetrate It was dragon glass, wasn't it? And that's why it can kill them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GabeSnow Posted May 24, 2016 Author Share Posted May 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, LadyAlisande said: That seems to be the case. But what if there's more nuance? I mean, the walkers themselves are undead zombies, they clearly don't have free will. But what if the Night King sees and knows more and has magical divination, such that he is aware of the red faith and Dany with her dragons, and is preparing not to annihilate humanity but to save the world from the true evil -- blood/fire magic? Unlikely perhaps, but Martin dislikes simplistic good/evil battles, so it's worth considering. I have to disagree. I think the walkers have discovered free will. And whomsoever still has control over them they are intent on destroying. Thats why the Children of the Forest and the Wildlings are now shitting themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnowed Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 58 minutes ago, GabeSnow said: As GRRM said, the battle for good and evil occurs more so in the human heart than in a cheesy, one dimensional conflict between the "bad guys and the good guys". Which is why I am curious about the White Walker's motives. In every other aspect of the story, he has refused to make cliched Villains and Good Guys battle each other, so I wonder if the Walkers are actually bad guys. Maybe there is more to their agenda than we can see?? Almost certainly however I don't think we will really find out until the final season. A peace or truce was reached before and I believe will be reached again as I don't think one side can out right win here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcorpyo001 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 1 hour ago, mattnj81 said: It was dragon glass, wasn't it? And that's why it can kill them now. Yup, it seems to be like a Dorian Gray type scenario.. The painting is the source of his power, but also his undoing. As for his end game, I guess we’ll see after Bran opens the gate for him. Will he systematically kill everything in his path, or just rush further south to several specific targets(WF, SE, Isle of Faces, Dany and her dragons)?!? Guess we’ll find next season. Does the show ever mentions the towers of Yi Ti? Or is that only in the books for now, or never going to become relevant. As in, will the war have two fronts or be contained only in Westeros? How did the Others get to Essos last time, if not through Asshai by the Shadow? It would be hilarious to prepare for 20 years for a northern invasion, only to see Essos hit first, and Dany coming to Westeros not as a conqueror, but rather to help her people escape the WW, in a Nymeria type of situation. Never going to happen, but it would be an interesting twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said: As for his end game, I guess we’ll see after Bran opens the gate for him. Will he systematically kill everything in his path, or just rush further south to several specific targets(WF, SE, Isle of Faces, Dany and her dragons)?!? Guess we’ll find next season. What do you mean by Bran opening the gates for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcorpyo001 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, mattnj81 said: What do you mean by Bran opening the gates for him? Well, he is still marked. If he doesn’t find a way to remove the mark, he will break the Wall protection the same way he did for the cave. Or I guess he could chose to stay north of the Wall, but I don’t see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said: Well, he is still marked. If he doesn’t find a way to remove the mark, he will break the Wall protection the same way he did for the cave. Or I guess he could chose to stay north of the Wall, but I don’t see that happening. Ok, I see what you're saying. I don't think they'll go that route. He's already *kinda* responsible for the deaths of Summer (if he's really dead), Hodor and the 3ER. I doubt they'll also saddle him with destroying the Wall. I could be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcorpyo001 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, mattnj81 said: Ok, I see what you're saying. I don't think they'll go that route. He's already *kinda* responsible for the deaths of Summer (if he's really dead), Hodor and the 3ER. I doubt they'll also saddle him with destroying the Wall. I could be wrong though. Well, there is a duality of sorts. There was a Stark that built the Wall(or the protections on it), and it will be a Stark destroying it. Bran the Builder and Bran the Destroyer. It would be tragic. The hero of the story ending up helping the bad guys by mistake. And if the show and/or book goes this way, they could redeem him in the end by having him fix his mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted May 24, 2016 Share Posted May 24, 2016 23 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said: Well, there is a duality of sorts. There was a Stark that built the Wall(or the protections on it), and it will be a Stark destroying it. Bran the Builder and Bran the Destroyer. It would be tragic. The hero of the story ending up helping the bad guys by mistake. And if the show and/or book goes this way, they could redeem him in the end by having him fix his mistake. That's true. Dammit, we need TWOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaysman Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Pfft. The Night's King is just coming to collect the 1000s of years of over paid bills for all that free air conditioning he has been providing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeslewolhn Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 On 5/24/2016 at 8:30 AM, Jon Snow Bengal said: To save the trees. They're just mad environmentalists who will do whatever it takes to protect the Weirwood trees against anything/anyone who could harm them. But trees can't grow in the lands of Always Winter. I think their goals are increasing their army and annihilating men. But I do like and think it makes sense that well learn more about their motives, there will be some kind of redemption type deal with them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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