Summer not dead?

[Northernmonkey]

7 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

1. We don't actually see Summer die

Yes we did. 

[mattnj81]

2 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Unless he's able to torch them, he wouldn't be able to truly kill them anyways. What does it matter if he kills a few whites or none at all before he dies? Either way wont' make his death any less sad or impactful. Summer gave Bran and Meera the precious few seconds that enabled them to escape and losing him will likely have large consequences for Bran.

I've seen this said a couple times and I understand take your point. But he went down in just a few seconds, it was Leaf's big explosion that bought them the time to escape at the end.

That being said, I'm probably just being cranky that Summer died if I'm being honest. If they hadn't done Shaggy dog so dirty, it might sting less.

[TexasDirewolf]

2 minutes ago, dbunting said:

You missed what he did then. They all stopped advancing to Bran because they had to kill Summer first. That bought Meera time to drag Bran away. Summer sacrificed himself to save Bran, how much more noble could it be?

Who are we to say they screwed it up? It's their story to tell, just because it doesn't match the version we have built up in our heads doesn't mean it's screwed up. You, me, and everyone other than GRRM have no idea what will happen with Summer, we are all guessing.

QFT

[mattnj81]

4 minutes ago, dbunting said:

You missed what he did then. They all stopped advancing to Bran because they had to kill Summer first. That bought Meera time to drag Bran away. Summer sacrificed himself to save Bran, how much more noble could it be?

Who are we to say they screwed it up? It's their story to tell, just because it doesn't match the version we have built up in our heads doesn't mean it's screwed up. You, me, and everyone other than GRRM have no idea what will happen with Summer, we are all guessing.

Obviously it's their story to tell, but the entire purpose of this forum is to discuss and comment on it. It's just my opinion, doesn't make GOT wrong. I thought Sansa season 5 was abhorrent, doesn't mean I'm right but also doesn't mean it can't be said.

[Magjee]

 

Kill the Summer, kill the Summer so that the Winter may be born! Winter is coming!!!

 

Here Winter, come here boy.

[mattnj81]

4 minutes ago, northernmonkey said:

Yes we did. 

No, technically we didn't. Even if he is dead (which is most likely) you can hear him yelping in pain as Meera and Bran run away, and then he is not seen again. Yes, I'm being very technical I know.

[Northernmonkey]

1 minute ago, mattnj81 said:

No, technically we didn't. Even if he is dead (which is most likely) you can hear him yelping in pain as Meera and Bran run away, and then he is not seen again. Yes, I'm being very technical I know.

But basically we did. It would be completely ridiculous if he was brought back now, especially because there would be no way to explain how he survived.

[mattnj81]

1 minute ago, northernmonkey said:

But basically we did. It would be completely ridiculous if he was brought back now, especially because there would be no way to explain how he survived.

I hear you, and that's a fair criticism. But given all the suspension of belief in this show, "animal survives wounds" isn't that nutty. And I'll say again, just for the record, that we are shown the exact spot he died and there was no body.

I'm almost definitely wrong, I get that. It's just theory.

[Forlong the Fat]

37 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Of course it meant something.  As I said Bran's push aside because they didn't know he was pushed, that was the first time Ned realizes his friend Robert hasnt changed and the 1st known blow from the Lannisters against the Starks.  Again they didn't know Bran had been pushed yet, so Lady is the first known domino to fall.  Ned chooses to do it himself and it represents the beginning of the end of Sansa's childhood.  It was powerful, it was the first piece of the Stark armor to take a hit.  It was done right in the show too, it meant something.  Greywind in the books, his death was tragic and symbolic too.  Him being able to sense impending doom, trying to warn Robb who usually listened to him but didn't this time, and he should have, and then Greywind fighting until the end.  

I could have accepted Summer's more if he would have put up a better fight against 6 skeletons, that was just wrong, and we won't even get into Shaggy.  That was just fucked up. 

Your comment was that Summer would go down like a soldier. My response was that Lady didn't.  

On the separate question of meaning, it's odd that you appreciate and anticipate no meaning in the Night King killing Bran's most important protector and companion, that you decline to recognize the importance of Bran being denied, by the actions of the Night King, of his only vessels for warging, and that you refuse to acknowledge the blindingly obvious symbolism of the harbinger of winter killing Summer.

[Northernmonkey]

9 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

But given all the suspension of belief in this show, "animal survives wounds" isn't that nutty.

I would argue that it is. We can actually hear the sound effects of Summer being stabbed over and over again. I don't think a wolf could ever survive that much blood loss.

As for us seeing the spot where he's killed it's probably the kind of continuity error you get in films and TV all the time. Maybe it's just easier to use the same dark cave set again and hope most people don't notice.

Also the actor who played Bran actually talked about losing Summer:

Summer was a relic from the time of Bran’s father, and he’s a reminder of his father and the Stark way. But also, Summer was Bran’s first connection to this strange, mystical world; there’s a very deep connection there. For Bran to then lose him – especially having come this far and having successfully escaped so many close calls – it’s another crushing blow. For Bran, it’s like losing a piece of himself.

 

[Blade of Sunlight]

I don't think Summer will survive, I have no problem with that, but the way it was presented made his death useless, Hodor made a stand, Leaf made one of sorts, Summer was slaughtered in 10 seconds without killing anyone.

D&D clearly do not apriciate the Wolves, though to be honest it's hard to translate the warg connection to small screen, still if they are going to kill him just give him a better death, simply dying while holding back a WW instead of a bunch of wights would have been much better IMHO.

Comparing the show to the books, the Wolves are deeply symbolic, their deaths as well, Lady dies and shortly after we sense Sansa is disconnected from her family, siding with the Queen, Greywind's death is obviously symbolic of not only the death of Robb but also of the end of the Stark unity, the pack.

[Tyrek Lannister]

Summer is 200% dead. And the death itself was pathetic. D&D should be ashamed.

[Richard Writhen]

2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

He's dead, Jim.

Lawlz

[mattnj81]

19 minutes ago, northernmonkey said:

I would argue that it is. We can actually hear the sound effects of Summer being stabbed over and over again. I don't think a wolf could ever survive that much blood loss.

As for us seeing the spot where he's killed it's probably the kind of continuity error you get in films and TV all the time. Maybe it's just easier to use the same dark cave set again and hope most people don't notice.

Also the actor who played Bran actually talked about losing Summer:

Summer was a relic from the time of Bran’s father, and he’s a reminder of his father and the Stark way. But also, Summer was Bran’s first connection to this strange, mystical world; there’s a very deep connection there. For Bran to then lose him – especially having come this far and having successfully escaped so many close calls – it’s another crushing blow. For Bran, it’s like losing a piece of himself.

 

Well, that quote does not bode well for my theory. But like I said, I knew it was a shot in the dark.

[Ser Giggity]

32 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

On the separate question of meaning, it's odd that you appreciate and anticipate no meaning in the Night King killing Bran's most important protector and companion, that you decline to recognize the importance of Bran being denied, by the actions of the Night King, of his only vessels for warging, and that you refuse to acknowledge the blindingly obvious symbolism of the harbinger of winter killing Summer.

I seriously doubt that D&D had something like that in mind. Their prime goal was to kill off another expensive direwolf. You know, they hate themes, and this clearly would be one. (“Themes are for eighth-grade book reports")

As much as i like your interpretation (i really want the show to be good, but most of the time it just isn't), for it to work out it has to be at least a white walker doing the kill, not some random wights.

[ash]

I definitely see meaning in Summer being killed at this moment. Summer is dead and Winter has officially come.

I hate seeing the wolves die and am still upset about Lady, but to me it is obvious that there is symbolic meaning to the wolves' names and the things that happen to them.

[Neffaria]

1 hour ago, Forlong the Fat said:

How do you know that Summer's death didn't mean something?  In fact, Summer dying along with Hodor stripped Bran of his warning "vessels"--a very important plot point.  The death of "Summer," upon an invasion the white walkers, is also so obviously symbolically important that I shouldn't have to mention it.

 

 

its a cheesy cliche'd reference. and I'll be shocked if GRRM writes something that schlocky. maybe im wrong and maybe george will employ the "winter is coming, nah seriously fer reals bruh winter is COMING check it summers dead yo!!" symbolism and I'll be as disappointed when I read it as i was when i saw it on screen. time will tell. 

As to the theory at hand I'm of the opinion that summer is dead. BUT Im also of the opinion that as Readers D&d Love the wolves, but as show runners they hate them. and that conflict shows in the work. I'll eat my hat if george plops shaggy dogs head on a table. When show runners actively cut portions out that have to do with the wolves then its known that they dont think theyre important enough to keep. george put em in, he obviously has more respect for their importance than D&d. but thats the whole thing about Page to TV. you have to decide what you think is important enough to keep. sure maybe D&d have more respect for the direwolves than they do for say

Spoiler

dorne or aegon or many of the other plots theyve cut from the books

but nonetheless you cant make the argument that D&d have the same respect as the author while at the same time arguing that its tv vs book. because thats exactly the OP's point. they've cut the wolves to bare minimum, because it was expedient. Im ok with that fact, as its their interpretation of the story, and thus far I've enjoyed it. But when you've seen panels where D&d are flat out saying that dealing with the direwolves is a pain and they wish they didnt have to do it, and would happily have asoiaf without them...well that shows that love the wolves they might, but respect their importance to the story line they do not.

[Forlong the Fat]

 

1 hour ago, Chett said:

Summer is 200% dead. And the death itself was pathetic. D&D should be ashamed.

More or less pathetic than Lady being stabbed by Ned because Tommen and Cersei are a-holes?

[Neffaria]

12 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

 

More or less pathetic than Lady being stabbed by Ned because Tommen and Cersei are a-holes?

 

 

Way more pathetic. I'm sorry its just not fantastic writing. and by tommen Im assuming you mean joffrey? and by stabbed i think you mean beheaded?

[jandslegate]

Unfortunately, he was hacked to pieces. Best case scenario he died protecting Bran and there was nothing left of him. Worst case is that he becomes another thrall for the WW's.