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So is GOT just going to Ignore Ser Meryn Trant's Death


King Perkis

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2 hours ago, good girl said:

On the show they haven't named all the Kingsguard but the seen vacancies have went like this

Robert's Seven

Joffrey dismisses Barristan, appoints the Hound

The Hound deserts, Ser Mandon is killed

Tywin  appoints 2 new Kingsguard since we see 5 with Tommen on the steps of the Sept of Baelor + Jaime + Meryn

Meryn dies, The Mountain appointed.

After Mandon Moore's death, Tywin threatened the QoT with appointing Loras to the KG. That goes with your point that some time went by before replacements were made for Moore and the Hound's vacancies.

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wait what about Ser Preston Greenfield, was he ever replaced on the show?

Robert's original Kingsguard:

  1. Ser Barristan "The Bold" Selmy
  2. Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister
  3. Preston Greenfield
  4. Mandon Moore
  5. Meryn Trant
  6. Boros Blount
  7. Some unnamed knight (replaced by Arys Oakheart)
  8. Arys Oakheart 

this does not change until Joffery starts making changes and his lineup is:

  1. Ser Barristan Selmy
  2. Ser Jaime Lannister
  3. Sandor Clegane
  4. Ser Meryn Trant.
  5. Ser Arys Oakheart
  6. Ser Boros Blount
  7. Ser Preston Greenfield
  8. Ser Osmund Kettleblack
  9. Ser Balon Swann
  10. Ser Mandon Moore
  11. Ser Loras Tyrell,

On the show we know that Preston, Mandon, Meryn have been killed, Barristan was released, the Hound deserted, Loras was never made a Kingsguard, and Kettleblack does not exist. so for sure we know Tommen's kingsguard on the show consists of Jaime and unGregor nut has Balon, Arys, and Boros even been mentioned lately?

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Small things like this really don't bother me. Given they have 10 hours a season to cram as much as they can into the show and still have it comprehensible to those who haven't read the books, some things are going to be omitted. What I'd be more interested in is the notion that a Kingsguard was murdered in child brothel in Bravos and the effect it would have on diplomatic relations. Mace announcing that he got favorable terms from the Iron Bank as an apology for the embarrassment or something might work.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Small things like this really don't bother me. Given they have 10 hours a season to cram as much as they can into the show and still have it comprehensible to those who haven't read the books, some things are going to be omitted. What I'd be more interested in is the notion that a Kingsguard was murdered in child brothel in Bravos and the effect it would have on diplomatic relations. Mace announcing that he got favorable terms from the Iron Bank as an apology for the embarrassment or something might work.

sure they have ten hours of television to make, but one or two lines of dialogue explaining what is going on with the Kingsguard coming from Jaime, who as Lord Commander, should be showing some concern for the Kingsguard. instead we get long boring monologues from the HS, that awkward conversation between Tyrion, Missandei, and Grey Worm, and dick jokes lots of dick jokes.

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1 hour ago, The Golden Wolf said:

sure they have ten hours of television to make, but one or two lines of dialogue explaining what is going on with the Kingsguard coming from Jaime, who as Lord Commander, should be showing some concern for the Kingsguard. instead we get long boring monologues from the HS, that awkward conversation between Tyrion, Missandei, and Grey Worm, and dick jokes lots of dick jokes.

At this point, if it doesn't advance the overall plot or aid in character development, it's not going to be in the show. Discussion of who is replacing Meryn Trant on the Kingsguard would not fall into either of these categories. I guarantee you people who have not read the books (who make up a huge majority of the people watching the show) have not thought about this for a second.

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On 5/24/2016 at 9:08 PM, Pile-O-Starks said:

At this point, if it doesn't advance the overall plot or aid in character development, it's not going to be in the show. Discussion of who is replacing Meryn Trant on the Kingsguard would not fall into either of these categories. I guarantee you people who have not read the books (who make up a huge majority of the people watching the show) have not thought about this for a second.

I read the books three times and I didn't think about it for a second either.

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On 5/24/2016 at 7:26 PM, The Golden Wolf said:

instead we get long boring monologues from the HS

I'm not unsympathetic to this view but I think, if anything, screen time devoted to  the administration of the KG (cos that's what it would be) would piss me off more.

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6 hours ago, Soccer69 said:

While were on the discussion of the Kingsguard, why was Sir Gerold Hightower cut out of the TOJ flashback.  I don't understand the big deal of just keeping the numbers the same (7 for Ned and 3 for KG) on each side.

He wasn't, according to IMDB and the actor who played him. Whent was cut.

 

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5 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

It's a long shot, but Ned's fever dream never confirms that ANY of the KG die at ToJ. It's very, very strongly implied, and probably all 3 of them died there. I think Martin left himself some wiggle room though.

 

I remember Ned remembering that it's only him and Howland who survive, so that pretty much confirms everyone else died, including Lyanna.

I thought the fact that Ned tears down the tower, to build eight cairns for the dead, including the KG, is also part of Ned's dream... or am I misremembering it? If I am, where is it in the books where we learn that part, and how he takes Dawn to Starfall?

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9 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Otherwise, they could have had the Gold Cloaks and Lannisters lead an attack against the HS. But again, logic....

So I guess you missed the scene where Jaime is telling Olenna to bring the Tyrell army to retrieve Marge BECAUSE the King ordered Kevan to take no action agaisnt the HS and the faith militant in fear of what they could to to her. Now, who controls the Gold Cloaks and the Lannister army ? Kevan. I don't care if you like the explanation, BUT it was logically explained,  But again, paying attention...

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10 hours ago, The Unborn said:

So I guess you missed the scene where Jaime is telling Olenna to bring the Tyrell army to retrieve Marge BECAUSE the King ordered Kevan to take no action agaisnt the HS and the faith militant in fear of what they could to to her. Now, who controls the Gold Cloaks and the Lannister army ? Kevan. I don't care if you like the explanation, BUT it was logically explained,  But again, paying attention...

Yes, the king controls the Gold Cloaks but not the Lannister army. And while you did describe that scene accurately, the explanation the show gives is weak. So Kevan and the small council stand down because of Tommen's fear of Marge being hurt/killed. Yet, isn't there that same fear when marching up the sept with a Tyrell army? Things are done for plot convenience.

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22 hours ago, Soccer69 said:

While were on the discussion of the Kingsguard, why was Sir Gerold Hightower cut out of the TOJ flashback.  I don't understand the big deal of just keeping the numbers the same (7 for Ned and 3 for KG) on each side.

He wasn't.  Hightower was the guard with Dayne.  They cut out Whent.

They most likely cut down the numbers because it was a long, intricate fighting sequence and they didn't want the audience to get lost when there were only three people in that battle that actually mattered to the story (Dayne, Stark and Reed).

As far as Trant goes, I don't see why it matters that they replaced him without specifically mentioning it on the screen.  He was murdered in a brothel in Braavos...they aren't going to exactly 'announce' that, since he was a kingsguard who shouldn't have even been there and since it would be an embarrassment to the Crown that one of their 'best' guards was killed by a brothel worker.

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1 hour ago, SuperMario said:

Yes, the king controls the Gold Cloaks but not the Lannister army. And while you did describe that scene accurately, the explanation the show gives is weak. So Kevan and the small council stand down because of Tommen's fear of Marge being hurt/killed. Yet, isn't there that same fear when marching up the sept with a Tyrell army? Things are done for plot convenience.

Tommen, the King, ordered Kevan to take no actions against the HS. Kevan is the one controlling the Lannister Army. It's Tommen who is afraid, not Cersei, not Jaime, not the Tyrell, not Kevan, but he won't go against Tommen wishes because he is his King. It's quite simple really. Call it plot convenience if you like, the books is guilty to do it to at times too. But I guess anything to hate on D&D is fine.

 

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4 minutes ago, The Unborn said:

Tommen, the King, ordered Kevan to take no actions against the HS. Kevan is the one controlling the Lannister Army. It's Tommen who is afraid, not Cersei, not Jaime, not the Tyrell, not Kevan, but won't go against Tommen wishes because he is his King. It's quite simple really.

 

So my point still stands. They basically wanted Cersei to be the savior as she is the one who put the idea into their heads to rescue Marge. Technically, they could have done it from the get-go, but due wanting it to fit the plot, they have to wait until Cersei and her lap dog give a speech and convince them to have the Tyrell army rescue her. So in the end, yes, Kevan could have had the Lannister army rescue Marge against the King's wishes. Instead, he follows the king's wishes until Cersei makes her speech, and all of a sudden he is ok going against the king's wishes.

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1 hour ago, Soccer69 said:

 

36 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

So my point still stands. They basically wanted Cersei to be the savior as she is the one who put the idea into their heads to rescue Marge. Technically, they could have done it from the get-go, but due wanting it to fit the plot, they have to wait until Cersei and her lap dog give a speech and convince them to have the Tyrell army rescue her. So in the end, yes, Kevan could have had the Lannister army rescue Marge against the King's wishes. Instead, he follows the king's wishes until Cersei makes her speech, and all of a sudden he is ok going against the king's wishes.

What..? No, at no point Kevan goes agaisnt Tommen, He will simply do nothing as he is not the one taking action against the faith. That's basically saying No I can't let you pass, my king commanded me to let no one pass this door, and so you tell him fine I'll use the window, did he tell you to guard the window ? No, then fine. I'll use the window to get in.

 

EDIT : No idea why I'm quoting Soccer, can't even erase the window :mellow:

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9 minutes ago, The Unborn said:

What..? No, at no point Kevan goes agaisnt Tommen, He will simply do nothing as he is not the one taking action against the faith. That's basically saying No I can't let you pass, my king commanded me to let no one pass this door, and so you tell him fine I'll use the window, did he tell you to guard the window ? No, then fine. I'll use the window to get in.

 

EDIT : No idea why I'm quoting Soccer, can't even erase the window :mellow:

I am just going to throw my 2 cents into this. You're both right in how you are looking at the scene. From what I see, Cersei is basically putting idea of using Tyrell army to protect Margery in Olenna's head but in the book tyrells come to this conclusion on their own (or atleast we can infer that). So, it seems Cersei is being given that role to appear as savior for the higher-ups in abolishing the HS and gang.  However, the king does control the Gold Cloaks and Lannister army and ordered them to not interfere.  however, the control of the Lannister Army is more in name than anything (just think of Joffrey commanding army when in reality it was Tywin).  Kevan is clearly the guy in the charge of the Lannister army and after Lancel is mentioned, Kevan seems to solidify his want to follow Cersei's plan and allow Margery to be freed.  So yes, King said don't interfere but Kevan is now putting his own motives before the King in order to get Lancel back. However, they mention how if this backfires there will be civil war. So is this foreshadowing what will happen since Civil War is what led to the Sparrows being abolished in the first place way back when?

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16 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I remember Ned remembering that it's only him and Howland who survive, so that pretty much confirms everyone else died, including Lyanna.

I thought the fact that Ned tears down the tower, to build eight cairns for the dead, including the KG, is also part of Ned's dream... or am I misremembering it? If I am, where is it in the books where we learn that part, and how he takes Dawn to Starfall?

Ned remembers something like "they were seven against three, but only two lived to ride away." Yes, you can read it as "of the ten, only two lived," or you can read it as "of the seven, only two lived." The language is vague, although it's much easier to read it as "8 of the 10 fighters died."

And yes, he says he pulled down the ToJ to build 8 cairns, but he never says who those 8 were for. Could be that twins were born and one didn't survive. Could be that he built 8 because people would expect to find 8 (and there was another survivor who Ned cut a deal with or something).

I don't remember where the "Ned takes Dawn to Starfall" part is, and I don't recall whether Ned is remembering that or somebody else is relaying a story they heard (Catelyn, maybe?).

Anyway, I'm not advocating that this is what happened, just that it's a possibility. And here's how it could benefit the overall story/endgame: if R+L=J and R&L were actually married, it would be very helpful if there was a living person besides Howland Reed and (presumably) Bran who could confirm this (assuming that anybody will care about royal blood and lines of succession anymore). Let's face facts: nobody outside of the north is going to believe a Crannogman and a kid who says he saw the truth through a tree. And maybe that won't matter anyway because the iron throne is meaningless once the Others head south. But if it does matter, it would be helpful for convincing people if there were somebody else who could confirm.

But still - probably all 3 KG died at ToJ.

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Well just to circle this whole convo. back from who controls the Lannister army and all that.  If there is a civil war (resulting from issues with the HS and friends), I am assuming the KG would be involved so it would be nice to know who the individuals filling those roles would be.  I know that might be a little bit too much to expect but oh well.

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