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The Lands of Always Winter and the Creation of the White Walk (Spoilers)


DrewDoherty

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Great points Wolfgang! I basically agree 100% with everything you said if that matters.

My only question is about the significance, or possibly lack there-of as you pointed out, of Craster sacrificing/only giving up his male children. Beyond the practical matter of it being easier to subjugate/control women for Craster possibly, due to physics and body type, my only other question is about how this is similar to all the white walkers we've seen so far (as in they all appear to have male characteristics: long white hair and/or beards, and generally male centric/associated clothing (loin clothes+armor+pants)). Like you said/implied a lot of this could be stylistic choices by the show.

yet, every time, the white walkers seems to be/appear as old men. Icy/white by with beards and long hair and a human like body. Who knows if they retain or care about gender. Maybe male looking white walkers are simply a more foreboding image.

yet, the only hint may once again have to do with the mostly/possibly solely book legend of the Nights king and his fabled bride/possible female whitewalker/icy woman he falls in love with. I cant find any other references to white walker gender/female looking white walkers. And so far all the white walkers we've seen appear similar to males/likely come from males.

I cant find any other references. However the possibly forbidden love story and lore of the nights king is once again connected to Jon Snow. The legend is of a lord commander of the nights watch, the 13th, (a ruler), becoming infatuated with an icy woman of the north/ possiblefemale white walker, and breaking his oaths/vows to be with her. This does have some nice parallels with Rhaegar Targaryen (a (future) ruler) and his apparent infatuation with Lyanna Stark, of the north and renowned for her blue eyes and northern beauty, and his ultimate "breaking" of his vows to his other wife Elia martell to be with her. Once again the legend of the nights king (the beginning with the female white walker/forbidden love, and the end with the stark/wildling force defeating him/it) seems to be highly related/alluding to jon snow.

 

The fact that Jon Snows birth and jon snows likely battle for the north both mirror the beginning and end of the nights king legend, certainly feels significant to me.

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What if the WWs know of the seer needed, hence the mark invested into Bran? They claimed children not to necropedoliac unsulling them into the mighty warriors needed to kill the WIldfolk, when wouldn't just one WW or the NK done that as slowly? Maybe they were looking for the person who could destroy them?

We saw the children, they attacked and killed Karsi at Hardhome.  But I suppose when they cannibalized her they gained their mighty WW status? :P

No I don't suppose what gave the lands of winter the name was because the heart of winter was never destroyed? Not the legion resurrected from Mance's archaeology.

Who knows the full tale of Winter?

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Well it seems like the nights king does know about other seers. YET thats up for debate in terms of rank and file white walkers. The most likely scenario so far seems to be the nights king controls the white walkers and wights. They share a single mind/purpose.

The white walkers always seem to be single minded in their goals whenever they appear, and are rather shocked when humans/child of the forest try to attack them. I have four examples to show you what I'm talking about. The way the white walkers and army of the dead have been portrayed in their actions seems to point to a hive mind mentality they share with the nights king. The nights king controls all of them (kind of like mass skin changing/warging but with dead bodies and white walkers respectively).

1. Will, of the nights watch, escaping the white walkers (or possibly being let go). This could also have to do with the white walkers getting beyond the wall or using fear as a weapon (when complete slaughter isn't the only goal sometimes). Even if its just a plot device to introduce the white walkers it stands that Will somehow got away from them. One powerful mind telling the rest of the white walkers to hold off and let the man go (to either help the white walkers get past the wall in some way, or drive fear into the nights watch, or driven by other motivations we cant figure out yet). Remember one white walker seemingly kills Ser Waymar Royce and Gared, but the same white walker and the several white walkers behind it spare Will seemingly/he gets away somehow. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDVnVlQ6PnE

2. White Walker so focused on Gilly/her baby (white walker fuel/a baby to become a new white walker basically) that he pays no/little attention to Sam, and Sam is able to kill it/the white walker. It breaks Sam's normal sword. knocks him aside, and keeps going (similar to the white walkers "sparing" will of the nights watch from the pilot). The white walkers are blood thirsty beings who want to kill everything, but in this case it seems like the more important goal was getting the newborn child/baby (not adolescent children like at hardhome that are already dead).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAfdHNjbYHU

3. The white walker that kills the latest Thenn chieftain, and attacks Jon Snow, seems to be solely focused on getting the dragonglass (possibly), that Jon left behind in the chieftains' hut. It seems surprised/amused when mortals attack it, and eventually battles them, but it appears that wasn't the main goal. Especially its reaction when Jon's blade doesn't shatter, but hold when he parries the white walkers swing. It seems like the nights king changed the orders for this particular white walker half way through the dragonglass reclamation mission. Remember the nights king also seemingly taunts Jon Snow at the very end of the hardhome episode. Once again sentience, but only really exhibited by the nights king. The other white walkers stand there, seemingly awaiting orders (likely from the mental link or through the language of skroth).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC1dVsTkmSI

4. The latest scene with the children of the forest and Meera. Notice how the white walker seems reactionary/shocked after the original child of the forest stabs it in the abdomen (protected by wight walker black armor), and the white walker turns and looks (seems rather non plussed about the stab attempt), and then ruthlessly guts the child of the forest with its ice spear/blade before going back to seemingly try and get to the three eyed raven/green seer/ and or stare at Meera and her COTF allies. Meera then hits it in the neck with a thrown spear. It was not being told to be a killing machine in this instance seemingly. The mission or purpose was to get to the three eyed raven, and retaliation against those defending it seemingly takes a second of processing.

Start at 4:50 for the white walker Meera part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9ywoXdFphE

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I'm fairly sure the wight/dead/zombie kids that killed the wildling chieftain Karsi are not white walkers, and never will be. Once you die you can only be a wight. This is a very important distinction I would say.

The children wights in question stabbed and attacked Karsi with their teeth, but they did not eat/cannibalize her. The wights the white walkers raise don't eat their victims. This isn't the walking dead. They seem to kill them as fast as possible because they want the corpse added to the army of the dead. See here is Karsi as a newly rasied wight (not consumed).

"During the fighting Karsi is confronted by child/young kid wights and is near frozen in terror. Unable to bring herself to fight/kill undead children, she is overwhelmed. A moment larter she becomes part of their army raised by the Night’s King."

 

Karsi before

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/a/a0/Karsi-hardhome.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150602221837

Karsi after. Not eaten/consumed. newly raised as part of the army of the dead.

https://patricksponaugle.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/deadkarsi.jpg

Wight children are not white walkers, and never will become them, now that they are dead/undead. i think this confirms it.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/29/02/f1/2902f18882cafa6ba2dba5807af203a3.jpg

If you look closely you'll see  they have bluish eyes, but don't have the white walker bluish skin. These are reanimated adolescent children. They are too old and far removed from being newborn (possibly only males), and are also too dead to be converted. But they are super scary weapons/a sub class of wight/undead. Zombies are one thing, children zombies are even worse. 

They key to differentiate white walkers from wights is their weapons, ice blades/spears, now their armor, the black stuff the horses riding walkers seem to wear, and their skin/ices. Wights still have wounds from whatever caused ther respective deaths. They may all have bluish eyes, but the white walker eyes seem to be a more intense/deep blue. While wights/the risen dead have some blue, but not all of it.

During the fighting Karsi is confronted by child/young kid wights and is near frozen in terror. Unable to bring herself to fight/kill undead children, she is overwhelmed. A moment larter she becomes part of their army raised by the Night’s King.

 

White walkers seem to be converted from the living solely  (the nights king and or craster's babies (not children but newborns) and likely other newborns as well.

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Are you trying to say Mance Raydar searching for the horn of winter disturbed the white walkers/army of the dead? This certainly isn't impossible, but to me it seems like the wrong order of events. In ASOIAF mance begins to use the power of his combined wildling force/army, that it has taken him 10-30 years to unite, to find the horn of winter to get past the wall (in case they cant defeat the nights watch)....a back up plan if you will.

The only thing that really made the wildlings decide to unite/team up was the white walker/army of the dead threat in the first place! Not that Mance's continued meddling and searching, "archaeology," as you put it couldnt have possibly made things worse, but i don't view it as causal whatsoever. IF anything it seems to be a reaction to the white walker threat, not causal.

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Also so far it would seem the name"lands of always winter" and "heart of winter" are related to the creation of the white walkers. I can't find any evidence from where the name comes about, but like my earlier post says, if the shrine depicted several times (in normal weather in the past, and eternally covered in ice in the present) are indeed the same place, then the weather patterns/events that would lead to a land being referred to as the lands of always winter is inherently tied to the white walkers.

Let me know what you think House Toad and or others!

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The show does what the show does, and what the show does what the books sometimes don't. Gilly never happened like that, Sam killed the WW where his Brothers would respect him later on retreat from the Fist. The WW scene with the baby didn't happen either. Hardhome didn't happen except that the Wights were in the sea and reportedly on board the ships that even made it there, because most of the Navy sent had been sunk in winter storms. We haven't see Hodor yet, although I am quite sure that the Hodor scene existed within reasoning because it absolutely fits.

The WWs themselves bring Winter causing blizzards freezing the ground they walk on, riding giants spiders and commanding hordes of the undead, animals included like bears and horses etc, etc.

Where you are conjuring descriptions is making a story from the books by using the show, and that doesn't really fit, because they are kind of separate. Who knows where either goes yet.

 

 

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I think i follow what ya said! and very true the shows and books share similar plots, but yes the details are different and will likely increasingly diverge.

It seems like most of my of my posts in this thread deal with show details (pictures and videos) and I've tried to supplement with book details when the show inherently runs out of exposition to varying degrees (due to the constraints of film medium).

but I really appreciate some of your counterpoints house toad! (that I then argued against), but only in terms of the show lore/universe. Like you said it could be different in the books. Although I doubt karsi shows up (like you said shes probably more of a Gilly, Ros (the whore), Olly type show construction. 

But anyways your points made me think even more in depth about these minor/possibly major details and if they are actually important (or not)! So i certainly appreciate the input!

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I apologize for any joking, and my typing is bad, because it is probably a condition like dyslexia although it isn't because I read just fine, more of a laziness where it takes too long writing out a reply that I can post quick, arranging later. You have raised some great points. We both like this universe otherwise we wouldn't be here and I am not bashing you only questioning and in possibly raising any points?

My only argument is how they awoke, how they have increased and why?

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lol we clearly both struggle typing when we're trying to word-vomit all this information out, but hey comes with the territory.

But Yeah thats very interesting, what has led to the white walker resurgence now that we know where they come from in terms of the show! Right now books and show both seem like it could be related to Targaryen incursion/arrival in Westeros proper? Not just dragonstone (AKA aegon the conqueror actually leaving the volcanic island and arriving on Westeros). This is also speculating about a link between the ending of the world/apocalypse motifs in GoT/ASOIAF as in a link between the doom of valyira (fire) and the long night (ice).

That or my earlier point about this being a cycle. You can never completely defeat the white walkers/nights king, you can only push them back for  a time (thousands of years where they fade into legend/myth). But that explains the constant need for the wall and the nights watch manning it during this interim period of peace.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaTSVk3wZbk

Here's a little more game of thrones show exposition about white walkers via sam tarly recounting white walker facts from an old books from maester aemons/the night watch's library from season one. Therefore possibly flawed details (maesters do get history "wrong" occasionally/often depending on how you look at it).

But the "sleeping beneath the ice" is interesting slash telling if its its true. The implication being that the night king cant be defeated? just put to slumber/rest beneath said ice? or at the very least the last time the living faced the night king and or white walkers, he/they clearly weren't defeated (AKA the white walker threat was only delayed). Maybe this time/war against the dead it will be different?

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/1/2016 at 11:15 PM, DrewDoherty said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaTSVk3wZbk

Here's a little more game of thrones show exposition about white walkers via sam tarly recounting white walker facts from an old books from maester aemons/the night watch's library from season one. Therefore possibly flawed details (maesters do get history "wrong" occasionally/often depending on how you look at it).

But the "sleeping beneath the ice" is interesting slash telling if its its true. The implication being that the night king cant be defeated? just put to slumber/rest beneath said ice? or at the very least the last time the living faced the night king and or white walkers, he/they clearly weren't defeated (AKA the white walker threat was only delayed). Maybe this time/war against the dead it will be different?

Maybe the Night King puts the human babies he converts in some kind of suspended animation under the ice until they mature. It could be that the maturation takes thousands of years. My guess is that during the first War of the Dawn, the Night King let the other White Walkers lead the Wights against the First Men and the Children of the Forest. When his forces were defeated, he spent the next thousand years building up his Wight army and waiting for the next generation of White Walkers to be ready. 

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On 7/18/2016 at 9:40 AM, HookedOnSonics518 said:

Maybe the Night King puts the human babies he converts in some kind of suspended animation under the ice until they mature. It could be that the maturation takes thousands of years. My guess is that during the first War of the Dawn, the Night King let the other White Walkers lead the Wights against the First Men and the Children of the Forest. When his forces were defeated, he spent the next thousand years building up his Wight army and waiting for the next generation of White Walkers to be ready. 

This is an interesting theory. One of the great mysteries remaining in the series is why the Others have returned now, and what they want.

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  • 11 months later...
On 5/26/2016 at 8:51 PM, WolfgangII said:

The points you made me think about some charactheristics of the White Walkers and I have some speculations.

I think you're right that the religion of the Lord of Light (here and after called R'hllor) is in direct opposition to the Old Gods (OGs). But why? Surely, the monotheism vs polytheist is important, but where is the constrast between them (aside of the fire/ice magic)? First, I think R'hllor, like any other monotheist religion, is oppossed to all other forms of religion. I would dare to say that worshiping any god(s) that is not R'hllor is considered an heressy by the red priestess, hence if you worship the OGs, the Seven, the Great Shepard, etc., you are really (in the eyes of R'hllor) worhisping the Great Other (R'hllor nemesis).

The difference that I note, is that R'hllor base his faith in the men (and women, the humans), and the OGs is the religion of the non-humans (Children of the Forest, Giants). If these two faiths and high powers struggle each other, is because they belong to different groups of people. Groups that, as we see in history, have problems to co-exist. Thats my first speculation.

My second one is about what you said of the Children of the Forest fusioning all the OGs into one=White Walkers (either Night's King or something else). I don't know if the personification of the OGs is the Night's King, if the White Walkers are the gods in the "flesh" (ok, in the ice). But, if the White Walkers pourpose is to serve the "law" of the OGs, well, the Children changed their mind about that. That's why the White Walkers attacked them. The gods (White Walkers in this case) do not changed their mind. They have no regrets.

Now, about the Night's King role in the White Walkers society, I believe (in the show) that he is the father of all White Walkers. He is the first created/transformed and he is transforming Craster's sons into White Walkers. (Something like Dracula, all owns him obedience because he created them). You made an excellent point about the difference between wights and White Walkers: the former are transformed/altered after their dead, the latter are transformed while they are alive. (The Children captured the first White Walker alive, afterall).

I don't think the White Walkers have a special reason to transform Craster's son. I think they go to him because he provided the babies willingly and make it easy for them. I also think they don't care if they are boy or girl, is just that Craster have chosen to give only boys (and that maybe because he didn't want rivals in their household). Surely, because Craster follow the "old rules" the White Walkers allow him to give an animal instead of a child, now and then. I also think the basis of the OGs religion is sacrifice. Someone has to be sacrificed to be a greenseer and someone have to be sacrificed to create the White Walkers. Afterall, the White Walkers power is their ability to control the dead. (Which could use if the theory White Walker=OGs is true).

As additional note, I agree that the White Walkers have been gathering their forces for a while now, and that they only decided to march toward the Wall when they felt strong enough or their enemy weaker enough. That would be a similar, like you said, to what Mance Rayder did. (In the books is also a paralel to what Varys and Illyrio are trying to do with Aegon).

As second additional note, I think the raven never learned to speak, but they were warged. (At least that's after the reading the theory of Bloodraven warging into Jeor Mormont's raven). But that is book-talk.

As third additional note, I also have read this before, but is good to point it here: the Drowned god mantra "what is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger" was probably learned after the Long Night and watching the wights. Time passed, and what it used to be a warning, became an inspirational quote. 

Well put. It seems obvious WW and wights are different. But I don't think they embody the old gods per se. I think they have independent will and I'm not sure the gods really exist so much as the children and men worshipping magic and personifying it. Besides, the OG are the worship of trees, etc, not humanlike gods. I tend to think the dragons will save the day against the WW, but like everything in GoT it will come with a price, a double edged sword with its own destruction, if the lesser of the two forms. Children, Men of all kinds, will band together against the WW. 

What I want to know is where did the First Men come from? If not the Children, and their magic/gods, which is confirmed in s6e5, then from the realm of fire?  I used to think the First Men came from the Old Gods/northern/ice magic. Maybe they do, bc Bran and other northern magic happens with First Men descendents. Then the Andals def come from the realm of fire. Because Essos I guess or if not then somewhere that way or south would be the realm of fire.

Or maybe the children and the First Men battled the way the First Men and Andals battled, the way the Andals and the Dothrak+Unsullied will battle,the second group is the fire sweeping into the land that is turning to ice, it's people turning to ice.

But I'm more inclined now to believe the Children, First Men, Andals and all people came about through evolution or from some cradle of life other place where fire and ice magic first blended together, both and not just one type of magic As people move north they fuse and use magic with ice magic, east/south they fuse and use magic with fire. They bring into the world various magical beings that take on their own lives and rain hellfire and hail on people when they get out of control. Fire is more individual, a singular forceful power, like Dany and each of only 3 dragons, but it can hurt others as it burns, hurting even those it loves. Ice is the organization of the many into mindless parts of a whole. It is stronger together but the individual is worse than dead. Both have ups and downs, but right now in GoT the dragons are coming under control while the WW are running rampant, balance must be restored to the world (ahem force).

I would feel more certain in my speculations if I knew where the First Men came from, originally. All men, for that matter. 

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