[BOOK 3 SPOILERS] Why obsidian makes the Night's King

[RoamingRonin]

We were told ages ago that obsidian is one of a few methods for dispatching the White Walkers. The last episode seems to have changed all that since we saw a White Walker created from obsidian... or did it?

Note this exchange between Bran, Meera and Jojen from Storm of Swords:

Quote

"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."

Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

Fire for ice. Ice for fire. Obsidian is frozen fire after all. Perhaps obsidian creates a personification of frozen fire. The White Walkers (aka. the Others) produce a winter so cold that it burns.

And there is a common trope in fantasy series where the only thing that can destroy the enemy is a product of the enemy.

Thoughts?

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I definitely think the 'frozen fire' description is important, I was thinking of it along the lines of a life force (fire) contained in ice.  

Rather than 'fire and blood' which seems to be involved in dragon hatching, blood magic and Valyrian steel forging, this ritual used frozen fire and blood, which may be why the WW are ice beings.  It seemed the COTF actually lodged the obsidian in his heart, not just stabbed him with it.  I wonder if the obsidian or part if it stays lodged in there and, if so, how come more obsidian then breaks the magic.  

I think the fact that he was sacrificed at that weirwood was also important.  In the scene where the nights King changes the baby, they take him to a seemingly special place to do it, so location may be important.  Also, the WW seem to be bloodless, so maybe all the blood is taken in by the weirwood?

[King Perkis]

19 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I definitely think the 'frozen fire' description is important, I was thinking of it along the lines of a life force (fire) contained in ice.  

Rather than 'fire and blood' which seems to be involved in dragon hatching, blood magic and Valyrian steel forging, this ritual used frozen fire and blood, which may be why the WW are ice beings.  It seemed the COTF actually lodged the obsidian in his heart, not just stabbed him with it.  I wonder if the obsidian or part if it stays lodged in there and, if so, how come more obsidian then breaks the magic.  

I think the fact that he was sacrificed at that weirwood was also important.  In the scene where the nights King changes the baby, they take him to a seemingly special place to do it, so location may be important.  Also, the WW seem to be bloodless, so maybe all the blood is taken in by the weirwood?

in that scene where the Nights King was created the Weirwood tree was crying before he was changed. Not saying that makes your statement wrong but that is an interesting way of looking at why the Weirdwood trees are crying red all the time.

[House Toad]

I like birds because they fly, make them flyyyyyy. He says to the chicken.

The prophecy has been foretold in the obsidian looking glass, ice melts, from heat. Hmm isn't it called global warming.

Was the poetry beautiful because she pinched his nose? Maybe the hobbits were on a quest to find the frozen fire, because love and hate mating brings out the monsters?

As we conjure every passage into an'other sub-text. Who knows its parable, some how ice might be destroyed from fire, and they could be one or the same? How are we getting weapons from this nuance?

 

[RoamingRonin]

On May 27, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I definitely think the 'frozen fire' description is important, I was thinking of it along the lines of a life force (fire) contained in ice.  

Rather than 'fire and blood' which seems to be involved in dragon hatching, blood magic and Valyrian steel forging, this ritual used frozen fire and blood, which may be why the WW are ice beings.  It seemed the COTF actually lodged the obsidian in his heart, not just stabbed him with it.  I wonder if the obsidian or part if it stays lodged in there and, if so, how come more obsidian then breaks the magic.  

I think the fact that he was sacrificed at that weirwood was also important.  In the scene where the nights King changes the baby, they take him to a seemingly special place to do it, so location may be important.  Also, the WW seem to be bloodless, so maybe all the blood is taken in by the weirwood?

Obsidian might work to defeat them because obsidian was used to create them. Some say it doesn't add up because it's like using kryptonite to make Superman but some versions of the Superman story have it so that kryptonite comes from krypton. Why would a piece of kryptonite be fatal to a kryptonian, eh?

I think, in the books at least, the White Walkers are humans possessed by spirits of vengeful Children of the Forest. That's why the weirwood is important. It could be the same with the show. Not sure just yet.

[ummester]

11 hours ago, House Toad said:

 

I like birds because they fly, make them flyyyyyy. He says to the chicken.

The prophecy has been foretold in the obsidian looking glass, ice melts, from heat. Hmm isn't it called global warming.

Was the poetry beautiful because she pinched his nose? Maybe the hobbits were on a quest to find the frozen fire, because love and hate mating brings out the monsters?

As we conjure every passage into an'other sub-text. Who knows its parable, some how ice might be destroyed from fire, and they could be one or the same? How are we getting weapons from this nuance?

 

Good points - there are too many options in this saga.

But, this idea - Hmm isn't it called global warming - is something I thought strongly of when reading the books. It struck me as an eco tale immediately - like Ferngully, or Avatar. You know, the monsters aren't the enemy, the people are coz the people cut down the trees.

I am still saddened by the thought of those poor bloody giants losing their lands to to invading humans.

How does this tie into the thread? Perhaps it's not only the obsidian that can de-ice Crasters babies but the wielder? Perhaps the wielder has to be a human who has faith in the Old Gods because the White Walkers (not the Knights King and wights) were made from a sacrifice (via the parent like Craster) to obsidian controlled magic (via the Nights King). A person who keeps faith in the Old Gods, like Jon, or Meera or even Sam has the power to free the frozen baby souls from their servitude to the Nights King.

 

TLDR - people who pray to the trees can free the souls of creatures created to protect them.

[hiemal]

21 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

We were told ages ago that obsidian is one of a few methods for dispatching the White Walkers. The last episode seems to have changed all that since we saw a White Walker created from obsidian... or did it?

Note this exchange between Bran, Meera and Jojen from Storm of Swords:

Fire for ice. Ice for fire. Obsidian is frozen fire after all. Perhaps obsidian creates a personification of frozen fire. The White Walkers (aka. the Others) produce a winter so cold that it burns.

And there is a common trope in fantasy series where the only thing that can destroy the enemy is a product of the enemy.

Thoughts?

It's like the forging of Lightbringer in reverse! A blade of frozen fire, rather than one of fired steel; the sacrifice is unwilling, unlike Nissa-Nissa.

So if dragonglass, frozen fire, is the antithetical power that birthed and can unmake the WW's what is the bane of dragons?

[RoamingRonin]

26 minutes ago, hiemal said:

It's like the forging of Lightbringer in reverse! A blade of frozen fire, rather than one of fired steel; the sacrifice is unwilling, unlike Nissa-Nissa.

So if dragonglass, frozen fire, is the antithetical power that birthed and can unmake the WW's what is the bane of dragons?

What's the bane of dragons? Aegon III perhaps?

Jokes aside, the dragons aren't the polar opposite of the Others. You don't need a particular weapon to kill them because pretty much anything works against them. Hobb the Hewer killed Syrax with an axe. Meraxes was taken down with a scorpion bolt to the eye. Drogon was wounded by arrows and a spear to neck. The dragons are just large, powerful animals.

Honestly, if the dragons were the polar opposite of the Others, they'd be covering the world in fire instead of ice. But history has shown they are pretty much indifferent to humans as long as they are left alone.

[hiemal]

39 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

What's the bane of dragons? Aegon III perhaps?

Jokes aside, the dragons aren't the polar opposite of the Others. You don't need a particular weapon to kill them because pretty much anything works against them. Hobb the Hewer killed Syrax with an axe. Meraxes was taken down with a scorpion bolt to the eye. Drogon was wounded by arrows and a spear to neck. The dragons are just large, powerful animals.

Honestly, if the dragons were the polar opposite of the Others, they'd be covering the world in fire instead of ice. But history has shown they are pretty much indifferent to humans as long as they are left alone.

Breathing fire and flying are paltry gifts when weighed against the ability to raise and control the dead, so I agree that dragons aren't opposites. WWs produce armor and weapons at the very least while dragons produce fire, blood, and woe. The similarities in the ceremony of the CotF and LB legend do lead me to believe that there are probably some symmetries, however, and the existence of "The Death of Dragons" locked away in the Citadel and the Dornish letter sent to Aegon I after Meraxes' death make me suspect that there is indeed a weakness that can be exploited effectively, even if it might not be as dramatic or as simple as dragonglass. While it is true that dragons are not immune to well-applied physical force, we don't know that the same wouldn't be effective against a WW. A scorpion bolt to the eye might be enough to take out a WW as well as a dragon.

[ummester]

3 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Honestly, if the dragons were the polar opposite of the Others, they'd be covering the world in fire instead of ice. But history has shown they are pretty much indifferent to humans as long as they are left alone.

Has it, really?

There were dragons everywhere once - why are there no longer? What caused the doom of Valyria? Why can't dragons go north or the wall?

In the world book, why are there deformed dragons in the mountains around Asshai?

In the show, why did Osha think the red star heralds the return of dragons? What do the first men remember about dragons that others have forgotten?

I'm not suggesting that dragons are the polar opposite to White Walkers - I think viewers are going to be surprised when there isn't even a conflict between dragons and Others, or fire and ice. What I am suggesting is that the dragons are not some kind of naturally occurring life form on Westeros, that rather they were created with blood magic, just like the Nights King and that. just like the Nights King likely has some kind of bond with First Men and Starks, dragons have some kind of bond with Targs (or rather Targs were magically enhanced to bond with dragons) - so dragons are hardly indifferent to people as they were likely created by them to somehow serve them or bond with them.

[House Toad]

6 hours ago, ummester said:

Good points - there are too many options in this saga.

But, this idea - Hmm isn't it called global warming - is something I thought strongly of when reading the books. It struck me as an eco tale immediately - like Ferngully, or Avatar. You know, the monsters aren't the enemy, the people are coz the people cut down the trees.

I am still saddened by the thought of those poor bloody giants losing their lands to to invading humans.

How does this tie into the thread? Perhaps it's not only the obsidian that can de-ice Crasters babies but the wielder? Perhaps the wielder has to be a human who has faith in the Old Gods because the White Walkers (not the Knights King and wights) were made from a sacrifice (via the parent like Craster) to obsidian controlled magic (via the Nights King). A person who keeps faith in the Old Gods, like Jon, or Meera or even Sam has the power to free the frozen baby souls from their servitude to the Nights King.

 

TLDR - people who pray to the trees can free the souls of creatures created to protect them.

The world over. Hasn't Greenland lost its ice-sheet due to the paradoxical El'nino and frack there goes the reef and 2/3s of fish as well? We won't evolve. And we better make an Exit, developing hasn't been developed all because some colonialist wants his 1% when those trade deals don't hit their inflation as the currency burns in the short term, long term it's daisies guess as some people just hate being in the back of the queue and they want too rule. Far too political. Sshh Toad we are just reading a book.

Any significance was possibly a means of stopping them, the weapon that binds also destroys? What do they have as a counter?

I found frozen fire funny in that conversation, I doubt it signified too much. But the land is the same

 

[Black Crow]

23 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

 Also, the WW seem to be bloodless, so maybe all the blood is taken in by the weirwood?

Whilst those in the mummers version dissolve into a shower of ice crystrals, the one pinked by Sam in the book had plenty of blood, it was just blue:

"When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked."

"Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating."

 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Whilst those in the mummers version dissolve into a shower of ice crystrals, the one pinked by Sam in the book had plenty of blood, it was just blue:

"When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked."

"Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating."

 

 

Thanks for this 

[House Toad]

Does the King lay the eggs, because they have acidic blood, it melts

[Gendels Children]

Is it possible that along with the original Dragonglass that was inserted into their chests, there were other "magical ingredients" perhaps it was coated with a balm or paste they had made along with an enchantment of sorts. If this were the case is it possible that the introduction of more Dragonglass to their bodies ruins the fragile balance for what ever magic is keeping them 'alive' 

[House Toad]

Qyburn's failed necromancy

[Smoke317]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Whilst those in the mummers version dissolve into a shower of ice crystrals, the one pinked by Sam in the book had plenty of blood, it was just blue:

"When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked."

"Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating."

 

 

I forgot how amazingly GRRM wrote the Sam the Slayer scene. 

[Battle Kitten]

I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that what creates the being, can destroy the being.   How many mom's have broken out with the "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!" 

[RoamingRonin]

14 hours ago, ummester said:

Has it, really?

There were dragons everywhere once - why are there no longer? What caused the doom of Valyria? Why can't dragons go north or the wall?

In the world book, why are there deformed dragons in the mountains around Asshai?

In the show, why did Osha think the red star heralds the return of dragons? What do the first men remember about dragons that others have forgotten?

I'm not suggesting that dragons are the polar opposite to White Walkers - I think viewers are going to be surprised when there isn't even a conflict between dragons and Others, or fire and ice. What I am suggesting is that the dragons are not some kind of naturally occurring life form on Westeros, that rather they were created with blood magic, just like the Nights King and that. just like the Nights King likely has some kind of bond with First Men and Starks, dragons have some kind of bond with Targs (or rather Targs were magically enhanced to bond with dragons) - so dragons are hardly indifferent to people as they were likely created by them to somehow serve them or bond with them.

I sincerely hope a song of ice and fire doesn't end with a battle between the beings that represent ice and fire.

What I mean by dragons being indifferent to humans is that throughout the series we see that dragons don't seem to bother with mankind at all. They're perfectly content with hunting animals and each other. They're not going to burn a village to the ground and devour people. One character from the Dance of the Dragons even says something along the lines of "If we leave the Cannibal alone, he'll leave us alone."

Sure people of Valyrian descent seem to have a magical connection to dragons but that's because of human intervention. Men sought dragons and manipulated them, not the other way around.

[Smoke317]

Problem I have with the Nights King creation:. If you stab any man in the heart with dragon glass will he become a walker?  They should had Leaf or the other Children chanting or something.  Or did Leaf energize the blade like she did with the fire/nature grenades?