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(SPOILERS) Criticise Without Reprecussion - Rant & Tear apart


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Just now, Le Cygne said:

Winterfell scenes were horribly written. And that hole that was dug is part of why the subsequent scenes are horribly written.

Now to dig themselves out, Jon Snow is taking a back seat in his own storyline. And Sansa is being portrayed horribly as usual.

Totally agree about this and said as much after episodes 3/4 when we got a pathetic excuse for NewJon.   Now he has to service Sansa's course correction and just be a plot device, dumdum dum.  

But pls take the Cogman debate to a general thread.   This one should be episode specific no?

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I guess this belongs in here, though I'm not usually a big fan of this thread. TV adaptations are always going to have problems, especially when the source material is so vast - editorial choices are always going to infuriate hardcore fans, even when made with the best intentions. I tend to see the show as completely separate from the books, and judge it on its own merits (and I admit it, I watched the show first, then read the books, so I guess I approached the books as being a fascinating extension of a story I initially knew the outlines of from television).

That said, it drives me crazy when a show breaks from it's own established rules. One example last night was so egregious that I feel I have to post it here. 

Is Kevan Lannister a zealot like his son now?

I'm just wondering because he is the regent of the Iron Throne and the Hand of the King. Tommen Baratheon is what, 12 or 14 years old in the show? Power is exercised for him through his regent. He does not have the power to strip a Kingsguard of his cloak without his council's say so.

This was established in the show in Season 1, where it was the council, not Joffrey, who sacked Barristan.

So, by the show's own canon (leaving the books out of it), either Tommen has dispensed with his regency early, or Ser Kevan Lannister, whose antipathy to the faith was just established two episodes ago, has now become a tremendous zealot who is offended in the sight of gods and men by the actions of Ser Jaime Lannister - actions he himself endorsed just two episodes ago.

Can anyone help?

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  Cogman is doing a job, he shouldn't be blamed for taking heat and/or defending his bosses, and Dan and Dave already said it was their idea to bring Sansa to Winterfell and marry her to Ramsay.  I don't get blaming Cogman for writing the episode, and I agree, he's better than the showrunners, though not by a huge margin.

Sure sounds like Cogman was involved, more than just following orders, and the episode he wrote was atrocious, some of the lines were just horrible (Ramsay saying rape made Sansa a woman, after they cut Sansa's own story):

Quote

Writer-producer Bryan Cogman had some insight, as well. “The seeds were planted early on in our minds,” Cogman said. “In the books, Sansa has very few chapters in the Vale once she’s up there. That was not going to be an option for one of our lead characters. While this is a very bold departure, [we liked] the power of bringing a Stark back to Winterfell and having her reunite with Theon under these circumstances.” 

Besides, Cogman pointed out: “You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.” 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/26/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview

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I was playing with my hands and rolling my eyes throughout this episode
It's so god damn boring and the way they write these scenes and dialogs it's like they think the audience is dumb. Everything is so in your face and almost spelled out for you.

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28 minutes ago, ebourget said:

So basically exactly what he said,  extremely expensive.   Relative or not, this stupid jealous woman is just living her life as it always was, acting and being beautiful.   It makes no sense that she somehow paid for a hit and just went about her business as usual.  

MY guess, would be that the waif used to be an actress with the troupe.  It's actually HER hit, she hated lady crane for some reason.  Her payment for the hit, like Arya, is to serve the MFG.  Being a trained actress she would be well suited to being a FM, if she could finish her training.  But then here comes a younger more "special" acolyte who Jaquen takes a liking too.   More jealousy.   Once the waif has earned her hit with service, it's finally time.  Only she can't do it herself (cause rules) and so it is given to the other new acolyte.  More jealousy.  New acolyte defies the MFG and saves her target.  Rage and pride surface in the acolyte.  A face will be added to the wall.

Then why would she be happy to see Arya fail? That means a loss-loss situation if the hit was hers. 

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Just now, Maid So Fair said:

Then why would she be happy to see Arya fail? That means a loss-loss situation if the hit was hers. 

Yeah, true.  Damn I just can't make heads or tails of it all but it definitely doesn't add up that a young beautiful actress can go about her business as usual + take out a petty hit for her own personal advancement.

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Like I said, Cogman is a bad writer. And he never had a good take on the books, either. Some copying here and there, but leaving out the best parts, and always just the surface. He borrows from movies for his scripts, when there's so much to be mined in the source material.

To expand on my rant: The dialogue is atrocious. The characterization ranges from nonexistent to out of character completely, and this is talking show characters (the book characters have left the building). The plot holes are abundant and just hand waved, throughout the episode. There's a lot of tell and don't show.

And the episode does not fit well as a whole into what came before, or what's obviously being set up. There are more questions raised than answered, and not in a good way. It's more like, well, can't be bothered, so let's just leave it vague and fill in the blanks later.

Moreover, there's nothing creative about the writing. The gimmicks he adds just make it worse, and muddy the waters some more. It's soap opera in medieval costumes. And it's not even good soap opera, at least there's some degree of clarity there.

Sam and Gilly's scenes, why not go more in depth when he stole the sword, which was the climax of their scenes. You are stealing the sword. If he doesn't like it, whatever. Let's set aside that he'd never get away with this. This is the big moment, so spend some time on it.

Instead of Gilly sassing Randyll Tarly a la Talisa. If he wanted to show that she was defiant and loyal to Sam, there were subtle ways to do that, that are believable and keeping in character, and the times. More faux empowered women on top nonsense.

Dany's scene, there's a lot of beautiful writing to be mined in her last chapter in ADWD. But no such thing in this episode. He had Daario just say flatly, you are a conqueror. Well, there are ways of showing that, not saying that. But he just went for the dull line and the dragon out of nowhere.

Jaime's scenes, there's nothing to indicate anything has happened to the character since season 1. Are they truly trying to say this? Why not set it up what's to come. He could have given NCW something to work with, but he didn't. So he made him a play by play man.

And then there's everlasting twincest. The same dull lines, and no one wants to see this, it isn't romantic or sexy. All the good romances from the books were cut. He doesn't get the romance in Jaime's story, or Sandor's for that matter, too bad he's writing his return.

Arya's scenes, same thing. Watch out for that one, she tells the Cersei actor about the Sansa actor. She wants you dead. Odd choice. What are they saying here? And the Needle moment should have been about what Needle means to Arya, which is not revenge.

And the Waif, why is she so obviously someone? Why does she hate Arya so? Is she in love with Jaqen? Jealous? Or just a really bad FM who for some reason is teaching other FM? These are not good mysteries, they are plot holes, that he should have addressed.

There's more... And there has always been this sort of problem with Cogman's episodes. The Sansa scenes he wrote were the perfect storm of his shortcomings as a screenwriter. And in the previews showing what this episode leads to, looks like more ahead.

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What I don't get about the Arya thing is this: Does she really think she saved Lady Krain's life? I mean, she's marked for death by the faceless men - the price has been paid. The waif, one assumes, will be after Arya right after she's despatched Lady Krain first. Completely pointless act (I can forgive that from a writing POV, sometimes characters don't think these things through. I just think they should show us that Arya made a dumb decision rather than letting people think Mrs. Krain somehow went on to live a long and happy life).

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29 minutes ago, Lothar said:

He defended it but that doesn't tell me he came up with the idea.  

People didn't like what happened in the episode, but I don't remember the Unbowed, Unbent, and Unbroken being poorly written.  The dialogue between Sansa, Theon, and Ramsay came off as realistic and that's not something I can often say.  I remember a really good part where Sansa was taking a bath and she acted tough and brave towards Myranda, but then when the door closed and she was by herself, she revealed that she was terrified.  That was uncharacteristically low-key and kind of smart for the show.

Oh I do not doubt there is a big responsability to be put on D$D´s shoulder fro this debacle. But in in this case, based on the interviews and DVD commmentaries Cogman offers on the subject (most of them painful to read/listen) I think is safe to say he had a big hand on the decision to rape-empower Sansa. 

As for the episode itself, I only watched it once, so I do not remember every single  line of dialogue or scene. But things like pitching two abused victims against each other for the sake of their abuser (with no reason other than apparentely women are all catty to each other in this show) or the focus on Theon in the final scene marking the prioritization of Theon’s arc over Sansa's  is something that continues to befuddle me even now.

The thing is, just becaue we do not get a "you need a bad pussy" line does not mean that the writing is not poor. Failing to understand the characters and themes of the source material you are adapting is as much an example of bad writing as lines like "let´s go murder them". But because the latter is something more in our face people tend to prioritaze this over the former.

 

24 minutes ago, ebourget said:

Can y'all just start a Cogman thread?:unsure:

Sorry for derailing. This is my last say on this subject :)

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21 minutes ago, Ser Blake said:

Precisely. You can hate Winterhell all you like, but the scenes there are still very well written.

Episode 2 was written by Dave Hill and the rest of episodes by D&D and yet the dialogues and the story progression are 1000X better than this shitty episode, Cogman put the rape of Sansa by Ramsay only for shock value, look to this episode, he put the cringey Danny's speech because he think it's epic

 

Oops sorry, It will be my last comment about Cogman

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6 minutes ago, Nami said:

I was playing with my hands and rolling my eyes throughout this episode
It's so god damn boring and the way they write these scenes and dialogs it's like they think the audience is dumb. Everything is so in your face and almost spelled out for you.

True to my word last week, I didn't watch.  I don't expect to watch any of the rest of the season at least until it's over and the final body count, including animals is in.  

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15 minutes ago, Johnimus said:

I guess this belongs in here, though I'm not usually a big fan of this thread. TV adaptations are always going to have problems, especially when the source material is so vast - editorial choices are always going to infuriate hardcore fans, even when made with the best intentions. I tend to see the show as completely separate from the books, and judge it on its own merits (and I admit it, I watched the show first, then read the books, so I guess I approached the books as being a fascinating extension of a story I initially knew the outlines of from television).

That said, it drives me crazy when a show breaks from it's own established rules. One example last night was so egregious that I feel I have to post it here. 

Is Kevan Lannister a zealot like his son now?

I'm just wondering because he is the regent of the Iron Throne and the Hand of the King. Tommen Baratheon is what, 12 or 14 years old in the show? Power is exercised for him through his regent. He does not have the power to strip a Kingsguard of his cloak without his council's say so.

This was established in the show in Season 1, where it was the council, not Joffrey, who sacked Barristan.

So, by the show's own canon (leaving the books out of it), either Tommen has dispensed with his regency early, or Ser Kevan Lannister, whose antipathy to the faith was just established two episodes ago, has now become a tremendous zealot who is offended in the sight of gods and men by the actions of Ser Jaime Lannister - actions he himself endorsed just two episodes ago.

Can anyone help?

The answer is simple, they don't bother with internal consistency any more, and haven't for some time. I'm glad you noticed this one but it is far from the first example. For example, in season 3 in order to make the Karstarks important they said the Karstarks had almost half of Robb's men. This season, they said the Karstarks, Umbers and Manderlys have about as much men total as all the other small houses combined.

This episode, Cersei tells Jaime "show them what's it like to go against the Lannisters", and she's sending Jaime to *Riverrun*, but not to attack Dorne, who killed her daughter.  WTF, why does she care about Riverrun, wasn't she the mother who loves her children, didn't Arya just say in this very episode that if someone's kills Cersei's child she'd be angry and would want to kill the people responsible?  So why is she not plotting against Dorne? 

Because everyone on the show just do what the plot wants them to do, none of them are motivated by internal logic.

 

 

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I mentioned earlier that they couldn't make me care about anything happening in Kings Landing.  I'd like to pose that challenge to you fine folk.  Because most of the time I find myself intolerably bored during KL scenes and inevitably start skimming through them for the few signs of intrigue like Margery being devious or the moments of satire like Mace the Ace giving a cracking speech to his troops.  The Iron Throne has not influenced anything outside of KL since Tywin died (Not counting for terrible Dorne plot.)  I don't know, it seems like as things stand nooooobody in westeros gives a shit about the King.  Why should we?  Challenge:  All the story arcs in KL revolve around scheming shitty people who will have no effect on the great plot, there are no protagonists, why should I care?

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There isn't actually anything resembling a story in KL, just people doing random stuff so it appears that things are "happening". But nothing that happens matters because we know the logical consequences of those events won't happen. So it's just random events. It's as if someone took all the random quotes from a bunch of fortune cookies and put it together and pretends it actually a story with a narrative.

 

 

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That the trouble with the KL "storyline" - they've altered it so much (in getting rid of Aegon, I assume, moving Jamie out of his arc and changing Cersei's character) it just has no internal consistency or logic.  I find it practically unwatchable.  The North's storyline is similarly butchered and flung together out of pieces that make no real sense.

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Pacing in KL is atrocious - we got 5 episodes of filler until something finally happened in E6. It's just HS monologuing and people fiddling their thumbs for no reason and with no logic or an overarching arc. If they at least spent this time to develop the characters and thus set up the stairs it might have worked but despite all the time spent on this plotline I still have no idea what anybody is trying to achieve. What's HS's endgame here? Margeary's? Is she playing everybody? To what end? Why has nobody intervened sooner? I have no idea what any of these people want.

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I must say that Jaime's planning of the war against the Faith Militant without first securing Tommen is one of the stupidest events in the entire series, probably right up there with Jon and the wildlings landing their boats north of the wall when fleeing from Hardhome. The actual disastruos outcome wasn't even the greatest risk. The real threat was that Tommen could have been held hostage. In fact if this were any kind of serious plan (in a somewhat intelligent story) they would have needed to not only secure Tommen but also free Marg and Loras before attacking. Otherwise the Tyrells would have been out of play.

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Another thing: why would Randyll Tarly be so fixated on the wildlings? He's a southerner and has probably never seen a wildling. People of the Reach would hate the dornish and maybe westerlanders and/or riverlanders, people that they actually come into contact with. This is like a mexican lord hating on some eskimos; why would they care?

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