(SPOILERS) Criticise Without Reprecussion - Rant & Tear apart

[Le Cygne]

You mean the Mountain actor. He was kidding around. There's no Cleganebowl.

Looks the same as the way Sandor looks and walks (so I compared to a walking scene, so sue me...)

Regardless, he's back next episode, putting what Ian McShane said with the title...

[-Winterfellian-]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, the Show intends to portray her as becoming Aerys III - with dragons.  I think it was deliberate that they included a vision of her father shouting "burn them all!"

I actually view this as quite the contrary.

While they have indeed turn her into an Aerys II in the making I think is without meaning to. In their minds Danny is just another of their super awesone empowered females fighting the good old fight against the patriarchy or whatever- only with dragons. They probably read/listen those cringe worthy speeches and pat themselves in the back on how cool she appears.

Maybe is because I long ceased to attribute them with any kind of planning when it comes to the show and your idea seems to me that will require too much forethought on their part.

[SerMixalot]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, despite all the nonsense of the Olly plot, I was still semi-interested in Jon's story, but they killed that, too. He came back to life, but he's just standing around gaping while Fansa looks constipated and bosses him around. They killed both of their stories, for no reason.

Think about it though, except for an endpoint DanDy don't know Jon's story, except maybe for some highlights.  So DanDy respond with Jon going into stasis-just gaping at all things around him. 

Cause DanDy don't know what to do with him

[SerMixalot]

5 hours ago, CBeck113 said:

Yep - if she was as confused in the show as she shows in the books then they'd have needed a much better actress for the part, and book Dani is only 15 at this point, so the doubt can be contributed to her lack of experience.  The audience is only really getting her "game face".

to follow up on this, it is certainly possible to convey internal dissonance, feelings, confusion, inexperience, etc etc on screen, very successfully.

Look at Scarlett Johanssen as Black Widow in the MCU.  Even without dialogue, her facial expressions and body language convey so much-her history, conflict, decisiveness, strength, vulnerability, pain, confusion, sensitivity, empathy, etc.  This is doubly impressive given the character's nature is deceitful as the super spy.  The fact that ScarJo can pull this off shows her acting range, but it is also made possible by the writing and directing.

[SerMixalot]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

You mean the Mountain actor. He was kidding around. There's no Cleganebowl.

Looks the same as the way Sandor looks and walks (so I compared to a walking scene, so sue me...)

Regardless, he's back next episode, putting what Ian McShane said with the title...

Ok that's some PHd level analysis-hat's off

[Le Cygne]

14 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Think about it though, except for an endpoint DanDy don't know Jon's story, except maybe for some highlights.  So DanDy respond with Jon going into stasis-just gaping at all things around him. 

Cause DanDy don't know what to do with him

Well, that's the same for every character. But they are making up fanfic for them just the same. Sam isn't just gaping, he's doing things. Dany is doing things. Not great things, but at least no one is telling them to do them.

[SerMixalot]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

Well, that's the same for every character. But they are making up fanfic for them just the same. Sam isn't just gaping, he's doing things. Dany is doing things. Not great things, but at least no one is telling them to do them.

True dat-I'm not sure which is worse, when they don't know what to do with a character and have them stand and gape or when they come up with kewl original content-ala Sam DudeBro, St. Tyrion the Insufferable, Varys the Court Ballwasher, Ser Jorah the Righteous Romantic, Larroll, etc. etc. etc

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Ok that's some PHd level analysis-hat's off

No, it's just called paying attention to spoilers and wanting to see your favorite character return, for some reason. He'd be better off dead than returning to this show.

[Le Cygne]

5 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

True dat-I'm not sure which is worse, when they don't know what to do with a character and have them stand and gape or when they come up with kewl original content-ala Sam DudeBro, St. Tyrion the Insufferable, Varys the Court Ballwasher, Ser Jorah the Righteous Romantic, Larroll, etc. etc. etc

Well, it's ruining Jon either way. I never saw him as a gapester in the books. He's arguably the most important character in the series. At the very least one of the most important. And now the sister he never gave a crap about has commandeered his story, and he's just standing by. Talk about a buttinsky.

Where's the significance of him coming back to life? No one would even know he'd died, if they'd missed a couple of episodes. Why aren't they tying him into Bran's flashbacks of his birth? Then again, they are leaving out his father and largely his mother, and focusing on backstabbing and Hodor.

[Le Cygne]

37 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

to follow up on this, it is certainly possible to convey internal dissonance, feelings, confusion, inexperience, etc etc on screen, very successfully.

Look at Scarlett Johanssen as Black Widow in the MCU.  Even without dialogue, her facial expressions and body language convey so much-her history, conflict, decisiveness, strength, vulnerability, pain, confusion, sensitivity, empathy, etc.  This is doubly impressive given the character's nature is deceitful as the super spy.  The fact that ScarJo can pull this off shows her acting range, but it is also made possible by the writing and directing.

Yes, it most certainly is. Here's a glimpse at feelings on this very show. Now, if you forget that he's Larry now, Jaime is remembering Brienne, he's missing her, he's worried about her, he's miserable with Cersei, he wants to be a better man... All those things are there, clearly in the text, for book Jaime... and it's all over his face in this moment. There it is, in just a brief moment, showing how he feels.

There's no excuse for them not doing this more often. It took no time at all, no extra budget, no special effects, just an actor who has a story to draw upon, and he does. They just stopped telling that story, so he could be a groveling fool for no reason at all. And I don't think they are done with the story, I think they will come back to it, and he will instantly be different. The Big Moment. That's bad writing.

[SerMixalot]

Show Jon has never made sense, he has always been a poorly conceived and developed character.  Remember in Season 2 when DanDy said Jon was looking for a father figure, you know the young man who was raised by Ned, Ser Rodrick, Luwin, and pretty much ONLY men and we are not talking weak men here, but strong men who would have shown Jon how to be a man.  Book Jon is anything but someone looking for knowingly looking for guidance.  Book Jon grows because his experiences show the difference between what he believes and what he experiences about the real world.  He learns to listen, yes to mentors-Tyrion and Lord Mormont, but doesn't seek them out, it progresses naturally from his status at CB.  Show Jon was just petulant and ignorant without the motivation which would have naturally grown out of his youth.  His leadership should have been natural and yes stoic (given the northern way of life), but fertile ground for growth-not regression.  Show Jon just regresses for 2 seasons, being a child to Mormont and then to Ygritte.  Then he has no conflicts over honor and wanting to become a true Stark, he has nothing to learn in seasons 4 and 5, cause suddenly he knows everything and is right all the time, not even questionably right or right but not acting smartly.  Just right.  Resurrected show Jon has no personality and I imagine will suddenly have a personality when the plot needs him to.  I attribute that to DanDy not having a detailed storyline for Jon post resurrection, they don't seem to know what to do with him.

[Le Cygne]

But they don't have a detailed story for anyone. Not just Jon. They aren't making the others stand around and gape.

They got just about every character wrong, but at least his story wasn't completely off, in every possible way, like what they did to Sansa and Jaime. At least he still sort of had his own story. Now he's a background character.

This melodramatic rape revenge fanfic with Sansa and LF and Ramsay is taking center stage.

[Le Cygne]

And again, it's just negligent to make so little of him coming back from the dead, and the big parentage reveal, and the significance of that. Why are they even featuring it, if they aren't going to max it out?

This should be Jon's season. He should be front and center.

[SerMixalot]

20 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, it most certainly is. Here's a glimpse at feelings on this very show. Now, if you forget that he's Larry now, Jaime is remembering Brienne, he's missing her, he's worried about her, he's miserable with Cersei, he wants to be a better man... All those things are there, clearly in the text, for book Jaime... and it's all over his face in this moment. There it is, in just a brief moment, showing how he feels.

There's no excuse for them not doing this more often. It took no time at all, no extra budget, no special effects, just an actor who has a story to draw upon, and he does. They just stopped telling that story, so he could be a groveling fool for no reason at all. And I don't think they are done with the story, I think they will come back to it, and he will instantly be different. The Big Moment. That's bad writing.

So true, in a few seconds NCW, without making a sound, emotes so much in that scene-you know, quality acting.  Unfortunately the scene means nothing cause the rest of the story does not have anything to do with those few seconds.  I have all the confidence in the world that Lena Hedley would be able to similarly emote the paranoia and self hatred endemic to Cersei-if she were given the writing to do so.  Lena just has a face and the body language to emote depth, every movement she makes can say a thousand things.  She has that presence of character.  With just a subtle look and the placement of her arms and legs and torso, she can express anger, disgust and fear all at the same time-hmmm sounds familiar.  She could  utter a whisper that could drive a strong man to his knees.  She, as an actor, has that talent.  She could be the perfect Cersei.  Look at her expressions in season 1-I am so above all of you, you disgust me, GD Robert why must I put up with you, etc. It is just the writing that fails the actors.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, I think she's fine, too, it's just they won't let her be Cersei. The last time I spotted Cersei was in the episode GRRM wrote in season 2, Blackwater. And they just had to add a good mom scene to that, too. But the scenes he wrote, she's Cersei.

[WSmith84]

One of the worse things about Wnterhell (and boy is there a long list) in retrospect is that it was ultimately quite pointless. They could have gotten Sansa and the Vale army in the North in a much simpler, more organic way by giving Sansa a few scenes with Royce, Waynwood, that other lord who interrogated Baelish and Sweetrobin in season 5. Just 3-5 scenes. She could have used her father's friendship with Royce and ties to the Vale to eventually convince them to go North and help her retake her home from the Boltons.

For example: have a scene where she talks with Royce about Ned's time in the Vale, then mention how much her father used to enjoy the Royces visiting them in Winterfell. Then use that to talk about how much she regrets leaving home and how horrified she is about what has become of it. This would be her laying the groundwork for later scenes, when she'd attempt to convince Royce and the others to help her retake Winterfell.

Instead, we got what we got.

[Le Cygne]

26 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

One of the worse things about Wnterhell (and boy is there a long list) in retrospect is that it was ultimately quite pointless. They could have gotten Sansa and the Vale army in the North in a much simpler, more organic way by giving Sansa a few scenes with Royce, Waynwood, that other lord who interrogated Baelish and Sweetrobin in season 5. Just 3-5 scenes. She could have used her father's friendship with Royce and ties to the Vale to eventually convince them to go North and help her retake her home from the Boltons.

For example: have a scene where she talks with Royce about Ned's time in the Vale, then mention how much her father used to enjoy the Royces visiting them in Winterfell. Then use that to talk about how much she regrets leaving home and how horrified she is about what has become of it. This would be her laying the groundwork for later scenes, when she'd attempt to convince Royce and the others to help her retake Winterfell.

Instead, we got what we got.

Agreed, and there's Sweetrobin, too, imagine if she'd actually been nice to the lord of the Vale instead of slapping him and heading off with LF, Sweetrobin would have done whatever she wanted. As it is, he agrees to send the Vale troops to rescue her because she's his cousin.

Sweetrobin was devoted to his mother, and now he's alone. Who would he rather cozy up to, Sansa or LF. If she was nice to him, Sansa. It's very different in the books, where she doesn't have this leverage in the Vale, but on the show, she did, and she just threw it away.

But even so, in the books, Sweetrobin is all hers, he would do anything for her. Her book story wasn't actually about nothing.

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agreed, and there's Sweetrobin, too, imagine if she'd actually been nice to the lord of the Vale instead of slapping him and heading off with LF, Sweetrobin would have done whatever she wanted. As it is, he agrees to send the Vale troops to rescue her because she's his cousin.

Sweetrobin was devoted to his mother, and now he's alone. Who would he rather cozy up to, Sansa or LF. If she was nice to him, Sansa. It's very different in the books, where she doesn't have this leverage, but on the show, she did, and she just threw it away.

But even so, in the books, Sweetrobin is all hers, he would do anything for her. Her book story wasn't actually about nothing.

I agree completely. And it would be a different tone for the show as well. Normally, the manipulation in the show is all bribery, hints, threats and games of musical chairs. Having Sansa use her father's friendships, her own sweetness and wits to manipulate people would contrast nicely, especially with Littlefinger. And it would show us that one can be both loyal, decent, pleasant etc. and still be a strong 'player' of the game. (Player in quotation marks because it's a term I just can't take seriously).

[Prince of the North]

13 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Agreed, and there's Sweetrobin, too, imagine if she'd actually been nice to the lord of the Vale instead of slapping him and heading off with LF, Sweetrobin would have done whatever she wanted. As it is, he agrees to send the Vale troops to rescue her because she's his cousin. Her book story wasn't actually about nothing.

Sweetrobin was devoted to his mother, and now he's alone. Who would he rather cozy up to, Sansa or LF. Sansa could have had LF dancing to her tune. It's very different in the books, where she doesn't have this leverage, but on the show, she did, and she just threw it away. But even so, in the books, Sweetrobin is all hers, he would do anything for her.

Exactly!  And it looks like, if Sansa plays her cards right, she may soon have even more "influence" and, thus, power in the Vale  You're so right when you say her book story wasn't actually about nothing.  The show could have easily had something very similar to what Sansa's book story line in the Vale will be.  And it would have been so much better than Winterhell.  They could have even moved it up a bit into season 5. 

[Le Cygne]

18 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I agree completely. And it would be a different tone for the show as well. Normally, the manipulation in the show is all bribery, hints, threats and games of musical chairs. Having Sansa use her father's friendships, her own sweetness and wits to manipulate people would contrast nicely, especially with Littlefinger. And it would show us that one can be both loyal, decent, pleasant etc. and still be a strong 'player' of the game. (Player in quotation marks because it's a term I just can't take seriously).

Agree. And they could have given show Sansa some character development. In her own story in the books, she's genuinely hitting it off with Sweetrobin, because they have a lot in common. They share her love of songs and stories, and he's a safe person she can talk to, so the audience can see what's motivating her, her hopes, her fears, and her sexuality in a positive way (he's her stand in for kissing Sandor).

That would have been a nice thing to add to the story, instead of this stagnant and inorganic rape and revenge story, and having everything driven by Littlefinger. In the books, he's driving things, but her time on her own, and with Sweetrobin, she's resisting, and figuring out what she wants. Which actually does matter, she's supposed to be a person. This is supposed to be her story, not Littlefinger's story.