[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

[Ser Duncan The Average]

I am only ten pages into this thread and don't know if anybody has posted this link (If so, then I haven't seen it) but here is a pretty comprehensive transcription of the chapter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TOzYKnHHFS87I2B1Mx1xaF0zoR5pjdl5bLh9Fzi6Dts/edit?pref=2&pli=1

I imagine someone must have recorded the reading, then written it out afterwards.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Ser Duncan The Average

[Red Helm]

4 minutes ago, Ser Duncan The Average said:

I am only ten pages into this thread and don't know if anybody has posted this link (If so, then I haven't seen it) but here is a pretty comprehensive transcription of the chapter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TOzYKnHHFS87I2B1Mx1xaF0zoR5pjdl5bLh9Fzi6Dts/edit?pref=2&pli=1

I imagine someone must have recorded the reading, then written it out afterwards.

Thank you very much for the link. My stomach squirms with disgust, and I have great pity for Aeron... and it's only page 2.

[arya_underfoot]

Any theories on why Euron is obsessed with cutting out tongues? I understand that he needs silence from some of his servants (dusky woman etc). But why Hewett's bastard? He doesn't need her silence. She's about to be sacrificed in whatever sorcerous assault Euron is hoping to inflict upon Oldtown.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Here's the entire chapter:

https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/

I hope it hasn't been posted already.

[Hos the Hostage]

39 minutes ago, Ser Duncan The Average said:

I am only ten pages into this thread and don't know if anybody has posted this link (If so, then I haven't seen it) but here is a pretty comprehensive transcription of the chapter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TOzYKnHHFS87I2B1Mx1xaF0zoR5pjdl5bLh9Fzi6Dts/edit?pref=2&pli=1

I imagine someone must have recorded the reading, then written it out afterwards.

Thanks you, Ser. I found this passage interesting:

Quote

 

“That which is dead cannot die,” said Aeron fiercely. “For he who has tasted death once need never fear again. He was drowned, but he came forth stronger than before, with steel and fire.”

Azor Ahai? Jon foreshadowing?

Another person who got drowned and set to make a strong comeback is Tyrion.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Hos the Hostage

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

2 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Honestly reading this chapter has made me really like Aeron Damphair.  I mean the guy suffered a lot, abused by Euron as a child, spent a long time in Casterly Rock as a prisoner, but still pretty much a decent guy.  He serves his god, didn't harm any one. And really from his internal thoughts bore no one ill will other than his intense hatred of Euron  which is completely justified.

You can call him a misogynst but he's just a product of his culture, he doesn't seem to hate any specific woman, he even appreciates Asha's qualities and wants her to rule together with Victarion.  He also is a lot kinder to the Flowers girl than I expected, first he tries to warn her than Euron will hurt her in a way that made me thing he cared about her and didn't want to see Euron hurt her. Then even when they are tied to the ship he bore her no ill will, instead even tries to comfort her and gave her courage, telling her hang in there and that they will soon be in the watery halls.

 

 

 

 

I agree.  I sympathize with Damphair.  He really hasn't done any harm.  He was raped as a child by his own brother, then he almost died during the war.  The poor guy has suffered a lot.

I agree with whoever said that Theon will end up ruling, not only in the Iron Islands, but in Westeros.  And he will be a wise King.

Edited May 31, 2016 by bloodsteel bitterraven

[ashayatara]

1 hour ago, Ser Duncan The Average said:

I am only ten pages into this thread and don't know if anybody has posted this link (If so, then I haven't seen it) but here is a pretty comprehensive transcription of the chapter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TOzYKnHHFS87I2B1Mx1xaF0zoR5pjdl5bLh9Fzi6Dts/edit?pref=2&pli=1

I imagine someone must have recorded the reading, then written it out afterwards.

I was at the reading, and this is the most accurate transcript I've seen of it; the angrygotfan one has quite a few typos and other errors as I'm sure he was rushing to get it out.

Glad to be able to get the exact wording for those visions in particular.

[Rob Storm]

First read through:

Notice the Quentyn reference of one of Aerons first captive companions is burned, alive for 3 days and eyes moving?

I got a weird vibe that Cersei is the pale queen that Euron teams up with.  They seem like they might climb high together before their eventual downfall.  I know he is waiting for Dany but it seems like he would take advantage of Cersei if he can and has no clue what is going on with Victarion.  He would just remove her if Dany showed up with a dragon for him.  Maybe he helps Cersei vs Aegon? 

Is the rusted hinge the sound of his door at Pyke opening whenever Euron came to visit?  Aeron being forced to drink shade of the evening is unfortunately similar to other forceful things he has had done to him....Euron is the new surefire antagonist 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Rob Storm

[Free Northman Reborn]

It seems clear that Euron is not feeding Aeron precious Shade of the Evening just for shits and giggles. Euron doesn't care about the visions that Aeron is experiencing. No, he is doing this with a purpose.

The reference to holy man with holy blood, together with the warlocks, Septons and Red Priest in the dungeons, makes it clear that Euron is using Shade of the Evening to awaken the magical properties in Aeron's blood. As he says, he has need of that blood.

And that is of course to serve as the blood sacrifice to power the spell he is going to use to sink the Redwyne fleet. I'm sure Pyat Pree and the septons are being tied to the prows of some of his other ships.

And as for Falia Flowers - she carries Euron's son or daughter in her belly. So by sacrificing her he is adding some King's Blood to the spell.

Some powerful magical stuff about to go down.

[Lord Varys]

@LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

I just don't buy the idea that some small horn supposedly hidden by some NW man not so long ago (you know, because else the black cloth would have been rotted away) is the big magical horn.

Not to mention that it would be a rather boring story if it turned out that the Others needed Euron and Samwell for their grand plan, not to mention that, again, the idea that the horn blown down south is either not going to affect the Wall at all or has to affect the entire continent. And this would have to mean that a lot of castles and houses will come tumbling down aside from the Wall.

And there is little chance that Euron will get his hands on Sam's horn (or care about that if he did) before he faces the Redwyne fleet.

If Theon is ever going to rule the Iron Islands then the Ironborn will be as castrated as he is. They are very unlikely to take a mutilated eunuch as their king of their own free will, so we would have to imagine they would have to be as broken as he is to accept somebody like him.

But I actually consider it more likely that Asha was the last hope of the Ironborn. Peace was the only way to save their lives. But they choose Euron as his travesty of the old way. Now they are going to pay. This time dragonfire might cleanse the Iron Islands for good.

And, of course, there won't be a Kingsmoot again. Not many Ironborn will ever return to their rocks after they decided to leave with Euron.

6 hours ago, a bastard with a harp said:

The one thing I dislike about this chapter is that it shows Euron as a fully dark character. And GRRM seldom presents his characters as such, there is no bad or good, no wrong or right everything is based on which POV you are seeing the history from.

But as it looks, there is nothing of good coming from Euron's actions, not for anyone else but himself.

Euron is only seen through Aeron's perspective here. The man still might have some redeeming qualities. After all, there are people he doesn't torture, and presumably he also likes his bastard sons (at least a bit) and so on.

@Fire Eater

The woman is just a shadow in woman's shape in the actual wording of the chapter. That makes it more likely that this is just some sort of allusion to some concept or principle rather than an actual person. One should assume that any direct allusion to the Others would be less subtle at this time in the series. If George was teaming up Euron and the Others or drop direct hints that this is going to happen he could have made the shadow-woman a living corpse queen with blue eyes or an ice queen or something of that sort.

Instead the whole thing is directly tied to the Iron Throne and the rule over the mundane world, reflecting Aeron's fear more than anything. Euron is not going to actually defeat and kill various gods (the actual chapter also had the Great Shepherd and the Black Goat impaled on the throne - it is not very likely that Euron will ever be able to really threaten those gods or the people who worship them) but Aeron has become afraid of stuff like that because of Euron's apparent 'demonic nature'.

And it could be, of course, also foreshadow what Euron is going to do to Aeron and the other holy men he has collected.

@The Scabbard Of the Morning

Yeah, Aeron really comes off as more sympathetic and likable in that chapter. I mean, I really didn't like that guy all that much but he comes off a lot better than one would have thought he would. But I think it is a little bit late that he discovered his love for Asha and part of that clearly is the result of his fucked-up Kingsmoot. Back then he clearly did not want Asha to succeed to the Seastone Chair, and his Victarion idea was always more than a little bit stupid. And him liking Asha most of Balon's children - small wonder, she is the one he knew the longest. The elder sons are long dead and Theon spent half his life in Winterfell.

3 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

Azor Ahai? Jon foreshadowing?

Another person who got drowned and set to make a strong comeback is Tyrion.

Nope. That was a direct and in-chapter reference to the death and subsequent resurrection of the Drowned God. He drowned and then came back with steel and fire. No mystery there.

By the way, we first get some sort of description of the Drowned God in that chapter. Or rather how Aeron pictures him in his mind. There seems to be no official Drowned God imagery on the Iron Islands so no surprise that the guy didn't look like a Deep One (or Cthulhu himself). The final image of Euron on the Iron Throne and the shadow-woman had strong allusions to Cthulhu, though.

One wonders whether it won't be a storm but indeed a grand kraken who deals with the Redwyne fleet? We know they supposedly exist, and there is talk that blood draws them to the surface of the sea. Could of course be both.

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And as for Falia Flowers - she carries Euron's son or daughter in her belly. So by sacrificing her he is adding some King's Blood to the spell.

Some powerful magical stuff about to go down.

Yeah, the shade of the evening stuff is part of the ritual/spell Euron is intending to use.

However, I don't buy into the specialty of 'king's blood'. That's just nonsense. There is no difference whatsoever between a guy wearing a crown and a guy wearing a hat. George used a common concept from the real world middle ages (that king's are of a special blood line, and rule by the divine right of kings, etc.) but his kings are either completely normal people (like, say, Mance Rayder), not much different from their noble peers (the Starks or Greyjoys) or they have a special 'magical bloodline' due to some ancient sorcery stuff (the First Men in general due to a possible mingling with the Children of the Forest, the Targaryens due to their dragonlord ancestry, the Durrandon/Baratheons due to an alleged union between gods and men, etc.).

Thus the sacrifice of Falia Flowers and her unborn child won't be special because she has 'king's blood' in her womb but rather because Euron sacrifices something that is (or should be) dear to him: his own unborn child as well as a woman he loved (and who knows, perhaps he actually liked her - that would make the sacrifice much more powerful indeed).

We know that true sacrifices involve sacrificing people and things you actually love. That is the core message of the story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. And we have seen a variation of that in the healing of Drogo - Rhaego had to go to bring Drogo back. And Dany had to lose literally everything to get her dragons.

This is why Stannis most certainly will make the decision to burn Shireen himself, if Shireen is going to burn in the books. Because that's what's makes the whole thing a true and powerful sacrifice. A father killing his only child.

And I'm pretty sure we are going to see a lot of this kind of sacrifice in the camp of the good guys, too. If there are any good guys left when winter has finally come for real.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Lord Varys

[chrisdaw]

It's worth noting that he offers Victarion Shade of the Evening, but Vic refuses. He then gives him the Dusky Woman.

To speculate I think the two are connected. I think it's plausible that had Vic drank the Shade, Euron would not have needed to give him the Dusky Woman. That whatever purpose Euron had in offering Vic the Shade he is making do with the Dusky Woman as a back up. I think it allows Euron to see a drinker's thoughts, get in their mind. Perhaps he does something to it to bind them to him, like drop some of his blood in it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@Rhaenys_Targaryen & other timeline-obsessed people:

I think we got some sort of hint towards the age of the Greyjoy brothers in the chapter because Euron mentions that he was usually drunk when he came visiting Aeron and Urrigon. That most likely suggests that Euron was at least in his mid-teens by that time, perhaps even near his twentieth nameday, putting more than a bunch of years between him and his younger brothers.

Actually, I've been able to add the Greyjoy brothers (all I've been able to add the Greyjoy brothers (all of them!) to the Wiki-Timeline Project yesterday them!) to the Wiki-Timeline Project yesterday!

Aeron's entry did not change, and he is still stated to have been born in or between 269 and 273 AC. Urri received a slight correctio. he was born in or between 268 and 270 AC.

Euron's entry now lists him as having been born in or between 257 and 268 AC. Those are the only exact numbers we can subscribe to him. Logic should tell a person which side of the spectrum is more likely.

So there definitely is room for Euron to have been more than a few years older than Urri and Aeron. And it might indeed be that Euron was at least several years older than Aeron and Urri (perhaps a bit similar to the age difference between Aerion and Aegon V?).

[Maia]

14 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Honestly, this vision you guys keep referring to, from ACoK... at the time when I read it I figured it was figurative for Theon and what he was eventually about-- the sacking of Winterfell, falling prey to Reek [becoming Reek] etc etc. Of course it makes retroactive sense now that is was actually Euron, but that's as much a post rationalization as my thinking it was Theon.

But the thing is, the Greyjoy uncles were introduced as early as Theon's arrival on Pyke in ACoK - both Aeron and Victarion appeared on-screen, we have heard the story of Aeron's conversion and personality change, Euron, his eery ship and his reputation were repeatedly name-dropped, etc. And at the end of ACoK Theon was taken prisoner by Ramsey, which made him being the person in Dany's vision very unlikely. Then in ASoS we heard about him being slowly flayed, etc. which made it even less likely. The reasons to think that it was about him were always rather flimsy - "grey lips smiling sadly" - smiley Greyjoy - Theon. Not to mention that somebody had to be the "dread" of this vision, no? And Theon didn't fit that role at all.

Now, I'd be the first to admit that some elements of the story grew - or bloated if one sees it that way, beyond what GRRM intended when he wrote Dany's vision in  HoTU. All  travel segments, most of what happened in Meeren, very likely Dorne, and history overview delivered via Brienne's trek through the Riverlands look like initially not intended post-ASoS developments. However, after reading this chapter, it is pretty clear, IMHO, that the Ironborn storyline wasn't a late addition. What hurt it was GRRM's deferral of it, due to scrapping of the 5-year-gap. 

 

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The reference to holy man with holy blood, together with the warlocks, Septons and Red Priest in the dungeons, makes it clear that Euron is using Shade of the Evening to awaken the magical properties in Aeron's blood. As he says, he has need of that blood.

Indeed. And, of course, there are indications that Aeron had magical abilities since his conversion, what with his perfect record of reviving people after a ritual drowning.  OTOH, it is a bit odd  that Euron seemingly only forces the potion on Aeron, and not on the other captives. Or does he just always start with his brother?

Speaking of the Old Gods not being represented - well in the first series of visions, Aeron did see a forest burning behind Euron...

@Lord Varys:

IMHO, a far simpler explanation for Targaryen inability to produce Valyrian steel after their exile was not scarcity of potential sacrifices - criminals, pirates, etc. certainly could have been used for that purpose even after the exiles had abjured slavery, but that they never knew the secret of producing it in the first place - that it was an incredibly valuable technology hoarded by one or more of the most powerful families in Valyria.

And speaking of what Craster's wives believed about the fate of their sons - well, of course they'd chose to believe that their children continued to exist in some form.

Having seen the Others, all the TWoIAF evidence of an ancient  civilization that ended in a massive magical catastrophe, and the hints that something like the Others may have been a concern for it, given the snippets from the series (including Varamyr's chapter) that the wights are sensitive to life-force and particularly that of newborn babies, Melisandre hinting that "untainted fire" of a child is more powerful, sacrifice of Varys's genitalia, etc., I'd say that  notion  of the Others using  life-force of  newborn babies for something magical is much more likely than transformation of living human beings into  crystalline "smart ice" creatures.  

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Maia

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It's worth noting that he offers Victarion Shade of the Evening, but Vic refuses. He then gives him the Dusky Woman.

To speculate I think the two are connected. I think it's plausible that had Vic drank the Shade, Euron would not have needed to give him the Dusky Woman. That whatever purpose Euron had in offering Vic the Shade he is making do with the Dusky Woman as a back up. I think it allows Euron to see a drinker's thoughts, get in their mind. Perhaps he does something to it to bind them to him, like drop some of his blood in it.

I actually think Euron that was honestly just intending to broaden the senses of his brother there. I mean, shade of the evening seems to be a pretty good drug.

And the first time he gave Aeron the stuff to drink it seemed to have been part of his usual game routine with him, too. They were supposed to drink together, after all, and it was back before they had even taken the Shield Islands. Back then Euron had not yet made plans how to defeat the Redwyne fleet because he would have been gone long before the Redwynes even had a chance to react to the whole Shield Islands conquest thing.

And in general I really think the warlocks and the shade of the evening were the things that opened the necessary doors for Euron. He may have dreamed of flying as a child but those days were, presumably, long over. But we know from Dany how shade of the evening can affect you, it can trigger visions and perhaps unlock hidden memories and make yourself aware of any magical powers and talents you might possess.

I think that's what has happened to Euron in the last years and months. He has been drinking this stuff constantly and so unlocked his own magical potential as well as knowledge he might have once been given by Bloodraven. We know that Bloodraven can bury memories (e.g. Bran's memory of Cersei and Jaime in the tower - not to mention that Bran has already seen what there is in the Heart of Winter and forgot/never thinks about that, too) so one assumes that Euron had no longer any good picture/memories what Bloodraven had done to or with him as a child until he began drinking shade of the evening.

It might also be that drinking this stuff is helps you unleash your magical potential if you are working a grand spell of some sort. Euron really seems to be very full of that stuff when Aeron meets him again in the end.

Addendum to the sacrifice stuff from above:

Oh, and the Falia Flowers/unborn child sacrifice also extends to Aeron's own sacrifice. He is of Euron's blood, his own brother, so sacrificing him (if he ends up being sacrificed) will be a very powerful sacrifice, too. I wonder whether it might be this double sacrifice that Euron has prepared which is the key to Aeron's survival (assuming he doesn't die). Imagine the spirits/demons/monsters Euron is summoning begin to drink the life of Falia Flowers and the child first. Then Aeron might have a chance to free himself and escape into the sea. The guy has experience in surviving being drowned so really could survive this way.

In addition, the transcript of the chapters seem to include an odd mistake in the end. Aeron is specifically bound 'tight with strips of leather that would shrink when wet', something that's actually weird because leather doesn't shrink but extends when it gets wet, so Aeron might be able wriggle out of his bonds when the leather straps have been wetted sufficiently by the seawater.

In any case, somebody should point out that leather thing to George. I don't think he meant to say that leather in his world gets tighter when being wet (although that could be interesting, too).

[Ruhail]

4 hours ago, arya_underfoot said:

Any theories on why Euron is obsessed with cutting out tongues? I understand that he needs silence from some of his servants (dusky woman etc). But why Hewett's bastard? He doesn't need her silence. She's about to be sacrificed in whatever sorcerous assault Euron is hoping to inflict upon Oldtown.

So they cant talk about what Euron truly does

[Ser Muradin the Small]

3 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Here's the entire chapter:

https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-damphair-part-1/

I hope it hasn't been posted already.

Thank you.

This is really interesting. It really drives home the fact that ASOIAF is no longer political drama with magical bits in the East and the North- now Euron is attempting god knows what using priests and probably soon to be sacrifices against people who likely never believed in magic. If he does cause some sort of catastrophe,

[Red Helm]

24 minutes ago, Ser Muradin the Small said:

It really drives home the fact that ASOIAF is no longer political drama with magical bits in the East and the North- now Euron is attempting god knows what using priests and probably soon to be sacrifices against people who likely never believed in magic.

Anyone here have an educated opinion about how unique A Song of Ice and Fire's approach to magic is in fiction in general (discounting human mythology, etc.)?

Edited May 31, 2016 by Red Helm

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I take a different view, to me Euron is not just a simple villain. He is just a boy who dreamt of flying. But unlike everyone else, when they told him it was impossible, that he was mad, evil even, he refused to listen, refused to give up on his dream. Instead Euron set forth against immeasurable odds with courage, determination and an unflinching belief in himself. He journeyed to the edge of the world and back again to find the means of defying the cruel gods who thrust gravity upon him. And now, he is only one amethyst eyed bimbo's stupid decision away from achieving his dream. His story is one of belief, sacrifice, defying nonsensical superstitions, finding forgiveness from one's own kind, blood sacrifice, uniting people, more sacrifice, and most of all a lesson to always follow your dreams.

In my view, Euron is possessed.  Only a complete fool could wish to be an enemy of every single god and system of magic in this world - or else someone who is possessed.

My impression is that Euron hardly cares if he achieves his ostensible goals;  he just likes to make the world burn.

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Euron is officially the worst brother ever: killing three brothers and sexually abusing two. 

I agree with the theory that the dwarves fighting and making love refer to the claimants for the IT fighting and making alliances such as the case with Arianne and Aegon which does involve actual copulation. 

The warlock shouting "Pree" pretty much confirms that Pyat Pree's party was the group Euron captured. I also agree with Lord Varys that Euron got the armor from the warlocks as his response to the Reader's inquiries suggests he is full of shit. 

Poor Falia, her CInderella story apparently doesn't have a happy ending. It just demonstrates that Euron isn't loyal to anyone. 

As to Ran's assertion about Euron being a dreamer or greenseer, I think the throne of skulls might suggest that given we see plenty of skulls on the walls in the CotF cave, and Melisandre sees skulls about Jon when we know BranRaven is going to help him. The woman with him possibly being the Others' leader brings to mind the Queen of the Norns from MS&T who rules from a mountain in a cold land far North. 

As for the Shields, he made sure he gave them to rivals and supporters of rivals, so his rivals are weakened if they lose them. 

I can't say I feel any sympathy for Falia, although her unborn child doesn't deserve to die.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I can't say I feel any sympathy for Falia, although her unborn child doesn't deserve to die.

Come on, that woman was apparently treated like shit by her half-siblings and family.