[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

[TheReal_Rebel]

On May 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Wow. Interesting interpretation.

And for the first time it gets me thinking that the Others may approach this war more strategically than simply trying to mindlessly roll on South with their zombie hordes. If they are able to have someone like Euron start weakening humanity from the opposite end of the continent, then it shows a lot more strategic vision and intelligence than most people gave them credit for, before.

And it then begs the question, if they can use Euron for that purpose, why not other key players in the series to date? And that immediately makes one start considering potential candidates who have played a major role in weakening Westeros just before this new Winter arrives.

People like Baelish, Varys etc.

 

Maybe they are but they are not aware of it because it dovetails so nicely with their own ambitions?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

11 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I find it interesting that by drinking shade of evening you start having visions. Since Euron drunk so much of it, I wonder what he have saw. 

You start having visions about dwarves...

Reminds me of Peter Dinklage's documentary/film in which he protests that small actors are only used for scenes in which people have crazy dreams.

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Yaaaaaaaas!

You know, I read the chapter again now that the novelty wore off and I sort of...hated it? I guess I liked what little character development of Aeron we got here, and the visions and Euron's collection of priests were interesting, but the rest was so disappointing. Like, this is Ramsay and Reek on steroids. The character of Euron lost whatever nuanced he could've had and now is just another run of the mill psycho rapist. Yawn, what else is new? He's basically Ramsay with ships and more fantasy gear. Reminds me of that Adventure Time episode where Finn fights in an infinite train to get weapons and every time Jake sees him he's got more and more powerful magic items. I mean, he got Cersei'd. He was a psychopath killer all along, ever since he was young! Now he's simultaneously cliched and ridiculously over the top. 

Couldn't agree more.  The chapter sounds awful.  Sooner GRRM dispenses with the OTT cartoonish style villains the better.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

Couldn't agree more.  The chapter sounds awful.  Sooner GRRM dispenses with the OTT cartoonish style villains the better.

I feel like fandom is too in love with the gray morality that GRRM's introduced. Not everyone is a gray character

 

Or do you just want all the villains to be Tywin (who I must remind you isn't as nuanced as people like to believe he is)?

This is a fantasy series and GRRM is looking to deconstruct all types of stock fantasy characters including the Dark Lord(Euron) and Evil Queen (Cersei)

 “If you think Euron is over the top, give him silver-blonde hair and purple eyes and you’ll have a collective portrait of the class that ruled the world for thousands of years.” For my part, I’ve arguedthat Euron isn’t culturally Ironborn at all, as we see in the sheer contempt he rains down on “his” people and their traditions at every turn. To the extent that this postmodern supervillain has pledged himself to a single culture, it is indeed that of Valyria, and as with the elves in Terry Pratchett’s Discworld (particularly the pointedly titled Lords and Ladies), the Valyrians’ glamo(u)r doesn’t change the fact that they treated all other beings like their playthings. Euron reminds us by his example that this supposed peak of civilization was in fact a den of monsters, long before the Doom made that literal…and I think he will unintentionally provide that same revelation to Dany, who hasn’t consciously wrestled with this aspect of her heritage even as she’s made war on it. 

 

In short, Euron is Dany’s foil, and I think GRRM has laid the groundwork for their confrontation by having Euron epitomize not only the Valyrian worldview, but also the horrorshow-helix running through Dany’s storyline. Like the Dothraki khals, Euron’s a far-ranging slaver who believes all cultures are subordinate to him. Like the Undying of Qarth, Euron has steeped himself in dangerous magic at cost of his soul...

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Lord_Ravenstone

[HexMachina]

6 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I agree with this parallel, it's just that I don't see Euron being such. I feel like then he shuld have been introduced earlier. But I, of course, could be wrong, and he was foreshadowed before. I def. need to reread before debating more or I'm totally gonna lose  

I don't have a problem with him only being linked to the Others now. Fact is that we know very little about the Others at all, so one way or another we're going to have some late reveals and developments, and I feel as though Euron fits well as an ally of the Others

[sweetsunray]

On 30-5-2016 at 1:57 AM, Veltigar said:

Yeah, I'm sure that becoming the property of a fanatical death cult beats staying at home with her nobleborn, loving, wealthy  father  She must be thrilled, having learned all those new ways to kill people, it must have been such a great experience! She would not have wanted to miss that for the world!

She was an heir of a House. Her poisoning handicapped her - laughing stock in society, what sort of husband would she have, especially if she might not even carry children. She was doomed to be mocked, ill treated, and at least her step-mother had succeeded in making her an unsuitable heir for her father.

FM gave her sanctuary, where she is not a laughing stock, but taken seriously and treated with respect, lifetime board, and she has a skill she's obviously proud of. Yes, her father and she would have been heartbroken over the separation, but it sounds like both father and waif ended up concluding it was for the best. And half of the inheritance still went to the FM to pay for the lifetime board.

For the father the payment was not as high either, except the emotional cost: giving up his daughter, but his wife was mostly to blame for that. The reality was that his daughter was not the same daughter anymore. It would have pained him to see her scorned. It would have hurt his House to have her remain the heir. His daughter ended up having a life of meaning and he got to keep an heir, still give half of what was to the waif's to her caretakers, and keep the other half for his new heir. And he's rid of the evil woman who did that to a child.

I'll bet that the FM asked the same price to the step-mother who had inquired with them: half the inheritance and your child. Of course for the step-mother the exact same price would have resulted in a null-operation for her. She wanted the waif dead so her child could inherit. But if her child was surrendered to the FM, that plan was pointless. That's why she decided to do it herself.

If you realize the reality of what the waif's life would have been like outside of HoBaW, what it means to her father's house, and that it might even have resulted in a soured father-daughter relationship where he'd end up regarding hs daughter as an embarrassment and hindrance over time, and realize that the step-mother was out-manouvered by the FM when she first asked the price, then it becomes clear ot me that the FM asked for the dragon egg from Euron to neutralize his potential danger. They didn't want this mad man to have a dragon egg in his possession, especially once it became known that a Targaryen princess had birthed dragons from an egg.  And in fact, to me Euron was telling the truth when he said he chucked that egg overboard and to the bottom of the sea, by request of the FM. Egg at the bottom of the sea => no dragon being born from that egg at least. Both this new chapter as previous chapters show full scale psychopathy for Euron. He'd probably score 40/40 on Hare's psychopathy scale and test. Psychopaths mix truth with falsehood, but not in a classic word way. The words about the egg are true, the falsehood is Euron turning it into a boast that he didn't give a rat's ass about chucking a potential dragon to the bottom of the ocean. The fact alone that Euron ends up telling this crazy story to Vic, which is quite unnecessary for him to tell, belies the "I didn't care" boasting behavior.

There are enough hints that the Kindly Man is one of the true keyholders of Braavos. These are the real men of power in the city, because they carry the keys to the vaults of Braavos - people of the Iron Bank, in the Sealord's office (but not the Sealord himself I think), and the head of the FM for the vault of faces. With the FM having a keyholder that implies that FM fall in line with Braavos' higher purpose and goals - ban slavery or prevent slavery, dragons are not something to joke about. Arya as Blind Beth overhears Tyroshi slaver sailors talking about Hardhome, how easy it was to get a ship full of women and children for free to sell as slaves (and with Dany harming the market in Slaver's Bay, Hardhoome is a prize find for slavers). One ship limped into Braavos harbor and got empounded. One ship thought did escape the storm and probably did reach Tyrosh. That is the valuable info that Arya passes onto the Kindly Man: where the slaves came from (Hardhome) and that it's highly likely that one ship managed to get back to Tyrosh and spread the news to other slavers. While Tycho of the Iron Bank doesn't get a large fleet along with him, supposedly he's only there to deal with Stannis, and yet he deals with Jon Snow, lending money for food as well lend his 3 ships for the rescue mission of Hardhome, where the Braavosi sailors explicitly said "only women and children" (the exact same targets that the Tyroshi wanted). And Jon Snow wonders that he got it rathre easy from Tycho. Coincidence? I don't think so. This means that Arya's information to the Kindly Man was passed on to the Iron Bank, and Tycho who was heading for Eastwatch anyway, just right in time upon his departure. 

There's no way that the FM are still working for Euron imo. He's a reaver, a slaver and mad man who wants to be emperor of the world with dragons... you know the type of guy who'd recreate a Valyria empire if he must, an empire from which the FM were born to oppose it and helped bring about the Doom. 

IMO the FM found out that somehow Euron had double crossed them (holding back the ownership of the dragon horn), that they underestimated him. Jaquen's in Oldtown to prevent Euron from getting his greedy crazy hands on tomes of information about dragons and magic.

[Ser Gareth]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I feel like fandom is too in love with the gray morality that GRRM's introduced. Not everyone is a gray character

 

Or do you just want all the villains to be Tywin (who I must remind you isn't as nuanced as people like to believe he is)?

This is a fantasy series and GRRM is looking to deconstruct all types of stock fantasy characters including the Dark Lord(Euron) and Evil Queen (Cersei)

 “If you think Euron is over the top, give him silver-blonde hair and purple eyes and you’ll have a collective portrait of the class that ruled the world for thousands of years.” For my part, I’ve arguedthat Euron isn’t culturally Ironborn at all, as we see in the sheer contempt he rains down on “his” people and their traditions at every turn. To the extent that this postmodern supervillain has pledged himself to a single culture, it is indeed that of Valyria, and as with the elves in Terry Pratchett’s Discworld (particularly the pointedly titled Lords and Ladies), the Valyrians’ glamo(u)r doesn’t change the fact that they treated all other beings like their playthings. Euron reminds us by his example that this supposed peak of civilization was in fact a den of monsters, long before the Doom made that literal…and I think he will unintentionally provide that same revelation to Dany, who hasn’t consciously wrestled with this aspect of her heritage even as she’s made war on it. 

 

In short, Euron is Dany’s foil, and I think GRRM has laid the groundwork for their confrontation by having Euron epitomize not only the Valyrian worldview, but also the horrorshow-helix running through Dany’s storyline. Like the Dothraki khals, Euron’s a far-ranging slaver who believes all cultures are subordinate to him. Like the Undying of Qarth, Euron has steeped himself in dangerous magic at cost of his soul...

 

 

I think what is happening is exactly the opposite to what you claim GRRM is trying to do.  The series became initially popular because it was a quasi-fantasy world with more complex characters than the standard fantasy stereotypes.  The longer the series goes on the more those characters revert to the standard fantasy stereotypes.  The main difference between this and most fantasy is it's more sexually & violently explicit.  The characters?  Not so much anymore.

[Ran]

GRRM's stated his intention from the very beginning was that the amount of magic would increase as the series progressed. This progression seem to be in line with that. I'd also question how characters like Brienne, Jaime, Cersei, Arianne, Aeron, Sansa, Samwell, Davos,  Tyrion, and so on have somehow become "standard fantasy stereotypes" because of magic playing more of a role in the story. The one has no obvious correlation to the other.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Ran

[Schwarze Sonne]

This chapter really scared the heck out of me. I used to think that Euron was "all-talk" but now i do not think so.

Let me remind you that every prophesies (not counting anything regarding Azor Ahai since it hasn't been confirmed yet) and visions in the series so far came true, although not always in the way we expected, and every efforts to prevent them were all for naught, so far.

Cersei and Melisandre totally failed to prevent it, they actually made them come true themselves. Melisandre failed repetedly, and since they arrived to the Wall, her visions were parallelled with multiple characters instead of just one like she used to (Jon & Ramsey).

From Dunk & Egg, Daeron's dream came true with Baelor's death in Dunk's trial of Sevens (not like he really ever tried to prevent it though). Daemon II's dream also came true, but it was metaphorical and wasn't direct literal dragon that hatched.

Moqorro sae the vision of Euron and so what? I doubt he could prevent anything from happening.

 

I believe that Euron will eventually conquer the Seven Kingdoms and f**k up eveyone along with the terrible tall woman who is a shadow with pale white fire in her hands. I suspect the woman to be Quaithe and I believe that Shiera Seastars is her true identity.

Remember that Quaithe "warned" Daenerys in advance not to trust anyone who'd come to her, to make sure she wouldn't make an ally with them but enemies instead. You see, Daenerys' worth is her dragons and everyone wants them and wants to use her. It's Daenerys' decision how to manage to use them or cooperate with them to gain things, but instead Quaithe's prophesies ruined all that. Quaithe even "warned" of Moqorro (black flame), Victarion  (kraken) and Marwin (perfumed senechal) in advance. And how could Daenerys ever know that Quaithe would play a long game with grand plan in her mind? She'd be less suspicious of Quaithe than other people coming to her.

As for why I believe Shiera Seastars is Quaithe. They are sort of sorceress. I also believe that Shiera is as terrible a woman as she is described in rumors. Bloodraven and Bittersteel's fight over her eventually lead to Blackfyre's Rebellion(s) and she was definitely amused by that since she was rumored to make men fight over her for her own amusement (the worst kind of woman). Yet Bloodraven seemed to be into her so much and cause the kingdom to bleed for his selfishness, despite his so called "pragmatism" (nonsense imho, he's a hypocrite). Bloodraven definitely f**ked up everything badly because of woman. What an idiot.

I think that Euron used to be Bloodraven's agent and apprentice, until Bloodraven realized (too late!) that Euron is a mad man, dumped him and chose Bran (his long awaited sucessor) instead. And then came Shiera...

 

With so much build up and the lack of supernatural villain besides the Others, I really hope Euron would live up to my expectation of exchatological storyline.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Schwarze Sonne

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

GRRM's stated his intention from the very beginning was that the amount of magic would increase as the series progressed. This progression seem to be in line with that. I'd also question how characters like Brienne, Jaime, Cersei, Arianne, Aeron, Sansa, Samwell, Davos,  Tyrion, and so on have somehow become "standard fantasy stereotypes" because of magic playing more of a role in the story. The one has no obvious correlation to the other.

Even Euron doesn't really fit the cliché of a truly 'evil character' yet. He certainly isn't just a brute like Ramsay or Gregor (who at least has the excuse that something is severely wrong with his head causing him a lot of pain), and he showed in AFfC that he can be open-handed and generous.

Aeron's dreams portray Euron as evil demon, basically, but that doesn't mean that's actually true. I do expect Euron to become a force of destruction and suffering, just as he himself sort of portrays to intimidate people.

If we imagine for a moment that he vanquishes all his enemies, take the Iron Throne, and ignore the Others then I actually could see Euron developing into some sort of successful king. He is smart and educated enough to realize that he can only survive as a monarch if he doesn't remain (or at least isn't perceived as) a tyrant. Euron certainly is too old to reinvent himself as 'the father of the country' like Augustus did after he has vanquished all his enemies and rivals, but if we assume magic would grant him a 30-40 year long reign then Euron actually could become as 'great' a king as Charlemagne.

And it is past time that this magic thing really comes into politics and war. I've cited Euron and the warlocks as potential examples for magic actually affecting the story on a major level but a lot of people do not want to hear or imagine something like that.

Perhaps it is because we have grown content with the idea of 'fake medieval realism with a little bit of magic' over the years but it was always pretty obvious that this magic thing must take a bigger role if George is repeatedly saying it will.

Ser Robert Strong is another example. That guy could to a lot of stuff and kill a lot of people if we imagine he is sort of undestructable by conventional means. He seems to be even stronger than Gregor was if we take the armor Qyburn ordered as evidence, and unlike Gregor there is no reason to assume he'll ever grow tired.

The scenario of him running amok and defeating a small army literally all by himself isn't all that far-fetched. I mean, if Cersei would dispatch him to bring her Mace's, Tarly's, and Margaery's head who could stop him? Or rather: How many of Mace's knights/men would continue to try to protect them once they realized that this guy cannot be killed. You do not try to fight a Terminator-like creature with a sword.

But I digress. Back to the chapter:

I really think we could simply interpret the shadow-woman as Aeron's view of that dreadful queen Euron is searching for. He has learned that Vic is off finding 'the dragon queen' by then and presumably Aeron assumes that person is a creature and vile, evil, and cruel as Euron himself. But he doesn't know who she is or how she looks so she's just a shadow.

If not, then my money is still on Cersei. That would be such a nice alliance of doom. And Qyburn and Euron would be so eager to exchange notes...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

<snip>

Thanks for reminding me about the Elder Brother. As for Varys & Illyrio... I agree that they'll be doing everything in their power to help Aegon, but now that their scheme has moved from an espionage phase to a more conventional military phase, their power is diminished. Varys can pull some strings in King's Landing, like he did in the ADWD Epilogue, and that will help. But it's really just battlespace preparation, and it's up to Jon Connington and Aegon himself to actually win that battle.

We've seen from Tyrion and Jon Connington's chapters that Aegon is making his own decisions, independent of what Varys and Illyrio might have planned. And now they're actually in Westeros, swinging swords... could Varys or Illyrio have helped them take Storm's End? I doubt they even knew about it until it was done. Things have moved out of their sphere of influence, and the pace of events has picked up too: frankly, I doubt Illyrio can have too much influence at all now, unless he pulls a diplomatic coup in Essos. By the time information gets to Illyrio from Westeros, events will have passed him by entirely. Even Varys will be struggling to keep up. Nay, it's all in Aegon and Jon Connington's hands now... unless I'm completely wrong.

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12 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

<snip>

Re: Euron's collection of tongues, we have to keep in mind that he's mad as a spoon, and may just enjoy the silence.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

... [Euron] showed in AFfC that he can be open-handed and generous.

Ah, but did he? Let's say I have a trinket. You think it's very valuable, and I think it's a worthless piece of shit. If I give you the trinket, am I really being generous?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Euron reminds me of a story I read about Charles Manson. Supposedly he was in Venice Beach - this is before the murders - and he was preaching his standard hippie crap to a crowd there assembled. "Imagine no possessions", all that garbage. And a guy says, hey, you're saying we ought to give up all our possessions, but I don't see you giving up that nice van you have. And Charlie says, you want it? Take it, and gives him the keys.

This is the sort of thing that impressed the teenage runaways and muddle-headed freaks who became the Manson Family. But it was all bullshit. Manson wasn't above stealing things, or mooching off wealthy patrons. What did it pain him to give away his car, when he knew he'd get another one somehow? And when he knew that the act of giving it away would bring more people to his side?

Which is what was really important to him. It's hard to get the measure of someone as loopy as Charles Manson, because his scale of value is so askew. Ditto for Euron, or the Joker, or any similar monstrous lunatic. But it makes for a fascinating character.

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Three more things:

1. This notion that Euron is an agent of the Others strikes me as wishful thinking. The evidence is thin, and the course of Euron's life doesn't go anywhere near the North. I don't doubt that Euron is destined for more than merely being the latest pretender to the throne, but secretly working for the Others? I can't see Euron working for anyone but himself.

2. I will never understand why people didn't like the Aeron chapters. He's awesome! Sadly, he's probably not long for this world. How long do you think a man can survive lashed to the prow of a ship? He's effectively crucified.

3. I don't give much credence to the idea that Euron is working with the Faceless Men, either. But hiring them with a dragon egg? Perfectly plausible. Lots of people are pooh-poohing the idea because the Bravoosi presumably hate dragons, but you're forgetting that, prior to Dany's miraculous hatching, a dragon's egg was merely a valuable trinket. Quoth Jorah: "My queen, Drogo will have no use for dragon's eggs in the night lands. Better to sell them in Asshai. Sell one and we can buy a ship to take us back to the Free Cities. Sell all three and you will be a wealthy woman all your days."

Of course, there's the problem that the dragon's egg probably wasn't worth that much to Euron, and the Faceless Men require a true sacrifice... but, I don't know, maybe he's just a really good liar. Or maybe he used an intermediary who did value a dragon's egg. We'll have to wait and see.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Illyrio Mo'Parties
Concision

[Lord Varys]

@Illyrio Mo'Parties

I did not say Illyrio and Varys are going to defeat Aegon's enemies in the field. What I mean is that politicking and maneuvering never stops and can play a very important role. Who defeated Stannis during the War of the Five Kings? Tyrion? Joffrey? Tywin? The Tyrells? Nope. It was Littlefinger. Littlefinger countered the story about the incest with his story about Selyse and Patchface, scoring a massive victory in the propaganda war. It was Littlefinger who arranged the alliance between the Lannisters and the Tyrells which led to Stannis' defeat in battle. And it was Littlefinger who had Garlan Tyrell wear Renly's armor and thus effectively singlehandedly defeated the bulk of Stannis' entire army (because the fools did not want to fight against 'Renly's Ghost').

Varys and Illyrio certainly are capable of influencing Aegon's campaigns in a similar (or even a stronger) way.

I did not say that Aegon is going to be Varys/Illyrio's puppet. He is not. But Euron might burn his fingers quite a bit should he end up messing with Aegon.

As to generosity:

A king usually is only openhanded with stuff he doesn't want to keep. Stuff he wants to keep/covets himself, he won't give away. In that sense, all the things a king gives to his followers are, most likely, not all that valuable to him (e.g. Robert giving Storm's End to Renly clearly signifies that he didn't want to keep it).

The Manson analogy is pretty good there, actually, because you have to do something like that as a war lord or even a feudal king. You have to part with stuff you might actually need or like yourself because your most important goal is to keep your followers happy and draw other people to your cause.

Euron certainly has sadistic tendencies but just as Roose does, too, he should be able to keep them under control (or at least private) if he was in charge of Westeros. Euron could restrain himself after he has gotten what he wants. I don't think he'll get the Iron Throne (or remain on it for long/face no opposition after he has taken it) and that's what's going to make him a force of destruction. He'll get strong enough to become a really big threat and then he'll wreak a lot of havoc.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

This chapter really scared the heck out of me. I used to think that Euron was "all-talk" but now i do not think so.

Let me remind you that every prophesies (not counting anything regarding Azor Ahai since it hasn't been confirmed yet) and visions in the series so far came true, although not always in the way we expected, and every efforts to prevent them were all for naught, so far.

Cersei and Melisandre totally failed to prevent it, they actually made them come true themselves. Melisandre failed repetedly, and since they arrived to the Wall, her visions were parallelled with multiple characters instead of just one like she used to (Jon & Ramsey).

From Dunk & Egg, Daeron's dream came true with Baelor's death in Dunk's trial of Sevens (not like he really ever tried to prevent it though). Daemon II's dream also came true, but it was metaphorical and wasn't direct literal dragon that hatched.

Moqorro sae the vision of Euron and so what? I doubt he could prevent anything from happening.

 

I believe that Euron will eventually conquer the Seven Kingdoms and f**k up eveyone along with the terrible tall woman who is a shadow with pale white fire in her hands. I suspect the woman to be Quaithe and I believe that Shiera Seastars is her true identity.

Remember that Quaithe "warned" Daenerys in advance not to trust anyone who'd come to her, to make sure she wouldn't make an ally with them but enemies instead. You see, Daenerys' worth is her dragons and everyone wants them and wants to use her. It's Daenerys' decision how to manage to use them or cooperate with them to gain things, but instead Quaithe's prophesies ruined all that. Quaithe even "warned" of Moqorro (black flame), Victarion  (kraken) and Marwin (perfumed senechal) in advance. And how could Daenerys ever know that Quaithe would play a long game with grand plan in her mind? She'd be less suspicious of Quaithe than other people coming to her.

As for why I believe Shiera Seastars is Quaithe. They are sort of sorceress. I also believe that Shiera is as terrible a woman as she is described in rumors. Bloodraven and Bittersteel's fight over her eventually lead to Blackfyre's Rebellion(s) and she was definitely amused by that since she was rumored to make men fight over her for her own amusement (the worst kind of woman). Yet Bloodraven seemed to be into her so much and cause the kingdom to bleed for his selfishness, despite his so called "pragmatism" (nonsense imho, he's a hypocrite). Bloodraven definitely f**ked up everything badly because of woman. What an idiot.

I think that Euron used to be Bloodraven's agent and apprentice, until Bloodraven realized (too late!) that Euron is a mad man, dumped him and chose Bran (his long awaited sucessor) instead. And then came Shiera...

 

With so much build up and the lack of supernatural villain besides the Others, I really hope Euron would live up to my expectation of exchatological storyline.

And Dany is rumoured to be a promiscuous whore queen who beds with men and animals. That doesn't mean it was true.

[Schwarze Sonne]

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

And Dany is rumoured to be a promiscuous whore queen who beds with men and animals. That doesn't mean it was true.

Dany's case is false. But there's no proof in Shiera's case that she really isn't that sort of person. We know nothing about her besides rumor after all, and her mysteriousness doesn't help that. Shiera might be as the rumor said or even worse, or it might have been BS. Just because we never get concrete evidence doesn't mean it's all BS.

[HexMachina]

Just now, Schwarze Sonne said:

Dany's case is false. But there's no proof in Shiera's case that she really isn't that sort of person. We know nothing about her besides rumor after all, and her mysteriousness doesn't help that. Shiera might be as the rumor said or even worse, or it might have been BS. Just because we never get concrete evidence doesn't mean it's all BS.

Innocent till proven guilty, IMO. Especially when it comes to rumours of promiscuity and sexual manipulation, particularly in regards to a woman.

[Schwarze Sonne]

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

Innocent till proven guilty, IMO. Especially when it comes to rumours of promiscuity and sexual manipulation, particularly in regards to a woman.

Well, look at Cersei and see how nobody gives a crap about Stannis' declaration that all her children are bastards born of incest because they have no idea how to prove and Cersei will never admit it.

And Cersei is a terrible woman. She's definitely guilty. But her incest might never be proven, ever.

Maybe Shiera's theory is all BS, maybe it's true. I just made a theory.

[chrisdaw]

Innocent until the author writes something like

Quote

Though she never wed, she had many offers, and several lovers through the years.

or

Quote

Her most ardent admirer was her half-brother, Bloodraven, who proposed marriage to her half a hundred times. Shiera gave him her bed, but never her hand. It amused her more to make him jealous.

Not a rumour or filtered through a fallible POV, but directly from the author.

But yeah, men were killing themselves after falling out of her 'favour' and fighting duels for the right to sit beside her without any encouragement, and all to her great horror.

And on Shiera the Star of the Sea = Quaithe the spawn of shadow = White flame handed shadow woman beside Euron, in addition to my other two posts in this thread about it, note that when he's not serving from his stone (stone beast?) flask Euron is serving on silver, as was Shiera's preference in jewellery.

And this tidbit.

Quote

 

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by chrisdaw

[Cas Stark]

Why do people think Euron is an agent of the Others?  WTF?

He's a madman.  I thought the chapter was interesting in that he's got valyrian steel armor, and he appears in visions seated on the IT.  It could be argued that he's something like the sequel's tendency for over the top violence and gore.....but the jury is still out on that one...he will clearly be a serious foe of Dany and everyone else in Westeros.  I can't say I've changed my mind about the idea of a crazy, sadistic, sorcerer pirate not being the best character to bring to the forefront, but he seems a bit more interesting now.

[athmystikal]

Aeron saw a number of gods impaled on the spikes on the Iron Trhone in one of his dreams. But the Old Gods were not among them. Intentional?

[Unknownfinger]

Another disciple of poorquentyn checking in. Euron has been playing the pirate, has no respect for the Iron Born or their silly revanchist culture and wants even more than just to sit the Iron Throne. I am not going to say that this chapter proves everything PQ has been saying about Euron is correct but I think there is enough in the text to suggest that a lot of his concept of Euron is what we are going to find in TWOW. Euron is our Act III (human) antagonist and the harbinger of horror. He signifies that both the military strategy and political maneuverings of Act I and the reflections on the damaged they caused of Act II are over. Euron is where GRRM will pivot to his horror story and/or 80's heavy metal album covers. I doubt we will be seeing any gods but we know kraken are out there and I suspect there is something else horrible in the ocean that the Iron Born have convinced themselves is their god that Euron will be raising up as well. 

Euron will defeat the Redwyne fleet, he will ensorcell a dragon and will probably knock down the wall. Not sure if Dany will actually marry him whether he seeks to control the Others are just work with them, or if his ultimate plan is to raise up New Valaryia on the ashes of Oldtown but I do think that there is a connection to "black, oily" stone of Asshai, the seastone chair and the base of House Hightower that will have a place in Eurons game. 

I am excited.