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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)


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18 minutes ago, King in the Narrow Sea said:

Ditto that. He's such an over-the-top character. Too obvious of a villain and he's like something out of a trashy fantasy novel (the kind with bad cover art that you're mortified to show anyone). That's why I think this whole situation is a farce. People are talking about Cthulhu and sea dragons and Euron using some crazy magic to shatter the Reach and magic horns, but I think GRRM is setting him up for an epic fail. He might beat Redwyne to keep the illusion up, and then once he hits Oldtown he's dead meat. 

He loves to pull the rug from under us, so I doubt Euron is going to end up achieving all that much other than distracting everyone from Young Griff and Connington. Victarion is the important one, the one with the horn and the ships to reach Dany. Aeron and Euron are likely there to die and shatter the spirit of the Ironborn, thus making it more likely for the remnants to accept disgraces like Theon or Asha as leaders. 

Too obvious of a villain?

Roose Bolton aka Dracula says hi 

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The interesting thing about Euron is that for someone who is supposedly godless he's definitely in touch with his spiritual side. Since he was a child he dreamed that he could fly (in a way that's reminiscent of Bran) and since he became an adult he regularly hallucinates and cavorts with warlocks and wizards of all kinds. It seems like he's got some kind of demented supernatural edge that to me makes him a lot more interesting than Ramsay. 

It makes for an interesting comparison with Aeron. Aeron is the religious one but rigidly sticks to the traditional way of life. Euron is the godless one but his mind his completely open to everything the world has got. I wonder if Euron is a way for GRRM to express his views on religion in ASOIAF in some way.

EDIT: To put it simply it's the religious aspect to Euron's storyline that makes him so interesting. The same goes for Aeron for that mater.

Edited by northernmonkey
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On 5/30/2016 at 11:56 AM, JLE said:

I don't think even Quentyn was necessarily bloat. If news of his death gets back to Dorne, it could prove the vital thing that sets Dorne *against* Daenerys, and perhaps makes them declare for the False Dragon (Aegon) against the True Dragon (Daenerys).

You don't need Quentyn to have Dorne v. Dany, you just need Arianne's unbridled wish to ascend a throne, she's the one in charge of Dorne's reaction right now, if she married Aegon, it would be Dorne v. Dany, just like that. You also didn't need him to release the Dragons, anyone of a number of people already in the story want them dead. Yes, he is the most useless character in fiction at this point.

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20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I took it that Euron was like, let's see if your fire god will save you...lights torch, puts to hands.  I'm not sure why the other guy is missing his legs, but I assumed that was Euron's doing also.  And the other? one? is Pyat Pree, can't remember what had happened to him...

GRRM has given even his worst villains some level of back story, Ramsay's back story certainly explains a lot of his pathology, even the Mountain has the headaches....but, I can't conceive of any back story other than "straight up psychopath" that could account for Euron.  

 

As my rebuttal think about it this way. If you give a kid powers that he can freely abuse, he will probably abuse those powers and morality starts meaning little and less. Take Bran for instance. He's abusing his powers to take over Hodor without Hodor wanting him to do. Euron is the possible endpoint of that continued route.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

If you've ever watched Jessica Jones, I'd also point to the Purple Man as another example of what happens when you give a kid super powers when he's too young to wield them.Also take into account that Euron's been raised in a culture that prizes violence above all else. Euron was at best going to grow up to be a more intelligent Victarion who we all widely consider Obliviously Evil.

 

So ironborn culture + plus superpowers + kid + being 40 IQ points smarter than the rest of the ironborn + an entitled life = Euron

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2 minutes ago, Whitering said:

You don't need Quentyn to have Dorne v. Dany, you just need Arianne's unbridled wish to ascend a throne, she's the one in charge of Dorne's reaction right now, if she married Aegon, it would be Dorne v. Dany, just like that. You also didn't need him to release the Dragons, anyone of a number of people already in the story want them dead. Yes, he is the most useless character in fiction at this point.

I think Quentyn could've made for a good short story.

Quentyn as of right now though is more thematically important than plot important.

I don't think Quentyn is even the most useless POV in the past two books even from a narrative level. That would go to Arys Oakheart 

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I must be in the minority, I never considered him evil.  He's unimaginative and his cruelty is what he sees as his duty and his culture.  He doesn't torture people or hurt them for fun.

Sorry, I don't really see the parallel with Bran and Euron, that's a bit too much of a stretch for me:  crippled boy wargs into mentally disabled man to do things he can't do because he's crippled...it's not good, but it can't make the jump from 'wrong' to immoral let alone evil. 

Euron as others have said is totally over the top in all respects...I feel the author can go a couple of ways with his character, none of which are great, but some are less problematical than others.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I must be in the minority, I never considered him evil.  He's unimaginative and his cruelty is what he sees as his duty and his culture.  He doesn't torture people or hurt them for fun.

Sorry, I don't really see the parallel with Bran and Euron, that's a bit too much of a stretch for me:  crippled boy wargs into mentally disabled man to do things he can't do because he's crippled...it's not good, but it can't make the jump from 'wrong' to immoral let alone evil. 

Euron as others have said is totally over the top in all respects...I feel the author can go a couple of ways with his character, none of which are great, but some are less problematical than others.  

 

Euron doesn't see it that way. The dude hurts people for fun and magic power buffs. Magic is powered by suffering or sacrifice in this world.

Euron-Bran is the easiest parallel to make even their spirit animal are similar. Euron is a drowned crow/kraken and Bran is a raven/winged wolf 

Even what they eat to power themselves up is similar. Bran eats paste from a Weirwood which is a red and white trees and the warlock's wine comes from a grove of trees that are black and blue (opposing color schemes):

‘Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it… Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated.

“Will this make me a greenseer?”

“Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

…It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. Then first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was so bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss of his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. “I don’t feel any different. What happens next?”‘ (DwD Bran III)

 

“Will it turn my lips blue?”

“One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you.”

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them…and then the glass was empty.

“Now you may enter,” said the warlock. (CoK Dany IV)

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone
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13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I must be in the minority, I never considered him evil.  He's unimaginative and his cruelty is what he sees as his duty and his culture.  He doesn't torture people or hurt them for fun.

Sorry, I don't really see the parallel with Bran and Euron, that's a bit too much of a stretch for me:  crippled boy wargs into mentally disabled man to do things he can't do because he's crippled...it's not good, but it can't make the jump from 'wrong' to immoral let alone evil. 

Euron as others have said is totally over the top in all respects...I feel the author can go a couple of ways with his character, none of which are great, but some are less problematical than others.  

 

Also yes it can. 

Bran thinks it's okay to violate another person's body and mind for a little bit as long as he gives it back 

how long until he decides that it's okay to violate other people and then how long until he decides to violate other people because the rules for non magical beings don't apply to him 

it's not like anyone can punish him for it 

having a backstory excuse  for Bran to bodysnatch Hodor is evil no matter the justifications 

 

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43 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Roose Bolton aka Dracula says hi 

The Roose/Dracula parallels make sense, but I believe there's a much deeper reason behind Roose's characteristics that come to light when analysed next to his mad bastard spawn. 

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On 30/05/2016 at 5:45 PM, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Also, its pretty clear to me now that Theon will rule the iron islands in the end

Wasn't Theon about to be executed by Stannis as an offer to R'hllor when Asha told him to sacrifice him to the Old Gods of the Starks? :/

This is from the released Winds' Theon's chapter 

Quote

  The ironborn bowed and retreated.  Asha took a knee.  "Your Grace.  Must my brother be chained like that?  It seems a poor reward for bringing you the Stark girl."
     The king's mouth twitched.  "You have a bold tongue, my lady.  Not unlike your turncloak brother."
     "Thank you, Your Grace."
     "It was not a compliment."  Stannis gave Theon a long look.  "The village lacks a dungeon, and I have more prisoners than I anticipated when we halted here."  He waved Asha to her feet.  "You may rise."
     She stood.  "The Braavosi ransomed my seven of my men from Lady Glover.  I would glady pay a ransom for my brother."
     "There is not enough gold on all your Iron Islands.  Your brother's hands are soaked with blood.  Farring is urging me to give him to R'hllor."
     "Clayton Suggs as well, I do not doubt."
     "Him, Corliss Penny, all the rest.  Even Ser Richard here, who only loves the Lord of Light when it suits his purposes."  
     "The red god's choir only knows a single song."
     "So long as the song is pleasing in god's ears, let them sing.  Lord Bolton's men will be here sooner than we would wish.  Only Mors Umber stands between us, and your brother tells me his levies are made up entirely of green boys.  Men like to know their god is with them when they go to battle."
     "Not all your men worship the same god."
     "I am aware of this.  I am not the fool my brother was."
     "Theon is my mother's last surviving son.  When his brothers died, it shattered her.  His death will crush what remains of her... but I have not come to beg you for his life."
     "Wise.  I am sorry for your mother, but I do not spare the lives of turncloaks.  This one, especially.  He slew two sons of Eddard Stark.  Every northman in my service would abandon me if I showed him any clemency.  Your brother must die."
     "Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace."  The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains.  "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear.  That is how Eddard Stark would have done it.  Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons.  Give him to Lord Eddard's gods.  The old gods of the north.  Give him to the tree."
     And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws.  "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."
     Theon Greyjoy smiled.  They know my name, he thought.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I think Quentyn could've made for a good short story.

Quentyn as of right now though is more thematically important than plot important.

I don't think Quentyn is even the most useless POV in the past two books even from a narrative level. That would go to Arys Oakheart 

Arys was character development for Arianne. If one of Quentyn's companions becomes a meaningful POV I will revise my opinion, but neither of his surviving two were prominent in the way Arianne was in Arys' chapters, so I don't think it's likely or natural to do so.

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Just a tiny note conserning the dwarves that appear in Aeron's vision, and also in Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying. Could they represent the lesser lords (as in everyone below the king) who own fealty to the iron throne, but are instead fighting and bickering amongst themselves? Or perhaps the smallfolk, the peasants.

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This chapter was amazing. Too many posts to read them all, but did anybody else think the Valyrian armor in Targ colors that Euron wears ties into Jon's dream of himself armored in black ice with a red sword in his hand fighting the wights and walkers???  I definitely think we'll be getting a Jon vs Euron clash and Jon will wear that armor in his fight vs the Walkers. Damn. what a chapter. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I took it that Euron was like, let's see if your fire god will save you...lights torch, puts to hands.  I'm not sure why the other guy is missing his legs, but I assumed that was Euron's doing also.  And the other? one? is Pyat Pree, can't remember what had happened to him...

GRRM has given even his worst villains some level of back story, Ramsay's back story certainly explains a lot of his pathology, even the Mountain has the headaches....but, I can't conceive of any back story other than "straight up psychopath" that could account for Euron.  

 

Exactly this. Cersei is a psychopath, but no matter how much GRRM tried to ruin her with the bullshit prophecy she's still retained some complexity to her madness. Heck, I can say more about Ramsay's character than I can of Euron's: he's got a chip on his shoulder about being lowborn and a bastard, he romanticizes his mother's rape, and he's particularly vicious against Theon because he's everything Ramsay is not. Like you said, even freaking Gregor has his blinding headaches, for crying out loud. 

I'm gonna take a page from Mr. Plinkett's book and try to describe Euron's character without mentioning his looks, gear or profession:

He's...mad, I guess. Cruel...crafty, I suppose. He's...I mean, that's it. I'm drawing a blank.

If I had a gun to my head, the most I can say about Euron (and even this is a stretch and a fanwank) is that he doesn't believe in gods (why? No fucking clue) and is (maybe? I'm guessing?) pissed about the whole concept of religion and belief, so he systematically tortures all these different priests to shatter their faith and then he hangs them from the prows as a symbol of the gods' nonexistence or futility. So he's basically a deranged philosophy sophomore student. 

But that's me fanwanking, actively trying to come up with something to fill the void that's Euron. 

Sure, he could go interesting places. There's some potential, but I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I took it that Euron was like, let's see if your fire god will save you...lights torch, puts to hands.  I'm not sure why the other guy is missing his legs, but I assumed that was Euron's doing also.  And the other? one? is Pyat Pree, can't remember what had happened to him...

GRRM has given even his worst villains some level of back story, Ramsay's back story certainly explains a lot of his pathology, even the Mountain has the headaches....but, I can't conceive of any back story other than "straight up psychopath" that could account for Euron.  

 

Remember Euron said he fed one of the wizards to the other wizards to make them bow to him. I think that is why the guy is missing his legs. I think Euron only took the legs.

3 minutes ago, Storm God said:

Just a tiny note conserning the dwarves that appear in Aeron's vision, and also in Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying. Could they represent the lesser lords (as in everyone below the king) who own fealty to the iron throne, but are instead fighting and bickering amongst themselves? Or perhaps the smallfolk, the peasants.

In Dany's vision they represented the people currently vying for the throne. I think they represent the same thing in Aeron's vision and I think that means they're Cersei and Aegon.

What is more interesting about them is that there is only two. Stannis does not appear to be represented. This could be taken as a sign that Stannis has currently shoved winning the throne to the bottom of his to do list.

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10 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Exactly this. Cersei is a psychopath, but no matter how much GRRM tried to ruin her with the bullshit prophecy she's still retained some complexity to her madness. Heck, I can say more about Ramsay's character than I can of Euron's: he's got a chip on his shoulder about being lowborn and a bastard, he romanticizes his mother's rape, and he's particularly vicious against Theon because he's everything Ramsay is not. Like you said, even freaking Gregor has his blinding headaches, for crying out loud. 

I'm gonna take a page from Mr. Plinkett's book and try to describe Euron's character without mentioning his looks, gear or profession:

He's...mad, I guess. Cruel...crafty, I suppose. He's...I mean, that's it. I'm drawing a blank.

If I had a gun to my head, the most I can say about Euron (and even this is a stretch and a fanwank) is that he doesn't believe in gods (why? No fucking clue) and is (maybe? I'm guessing?) pissed about the whole concept of religion and belief, so he systematically tortures all these different priests to shatter their faith and then he hangs them from the prows as a symbol of the gods' nonexistence or futility. So he's basically a deranged philosophy sophomore student. 

But that's me fanwanking, actively trying to come up with something to fill the void that's Euron. 

Sure, he could go interesting places. There's some potential, but I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far. 

Doesn't the prophecy actually make Cersei more complex?

Cersei is a deconstruction of the Evil Queen from Snow White who wants to kill the younger more beautiful queen/princess because she's scared that she will take everything she holds dear little knowing that it's most likely a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also instead of just being pointlessly evil, she's actually in fear of her life in regards to Tyrion which is why she tries so hard to throw him under the bus every chance she gets 

Cersei isn't really a psychopath. She gets no joy out of hurting people. And tries to deflect blame unto Marge when the Blue Bard is being tortured and feels a little sickened by it 

She's closer to a malignant Narcissist 

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone
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2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Doesn't the prophecy actually make Cersei more complex?

Cersei is a deconstruction of the Evil Queen from Snow White who wants to kill the younger more beautiful queen/princess because she's scared that she will take everything she holds dear little knowing that it's most likely a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also instead of just being pointlessly evil, she's actually in fear of her life in regards to Tyrion which is why she tries so hard to throw him under the bus every chance she gets 

Cersei isn't really a psychopath. She gets no joy out of hurting people. And tries to deflect blame unto Cersei when the Blue Bard is being tortured and feels a little sickened by it 

She's closer to a malignant Narcissist 

That's not a deconstruction of the Evil Queen, that's literally the Evil Queen. 

And no, the prophecy doesn't mean Cersei more complex. It's reductive and ultimately unnecessary, as all the ingredients for her character were there and could've been explored far more organically instead of inserting a last minute prophecy to give her some motivations. 

For example, her hatred of Tyrion easily stems from the fact that he "killed" her mother during birth and because Cersei, always trying to be like Tywin, followed her father's lead in despising him due to his condition as a dwarf. You don't need some bullshit valonqar nonsense to make her paranoid. She was already paranoid. Ditto Margaery. She would've suspected Margaery anyway because of the coin Varys planted in the dungeons and because Cersei was going to be naturally jealous of anyone earning the love of the commoners and Tommen. There's no need for the Younger, More Beautiful Queen. That's GRRM spoonfeeding us unnecessarily. 

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12 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Exactly this. Cersei is a psychopath, but no matter how much GRRM tried to ruin her with the bullshit prophecy she's still retained some complexity to her madness. Heck, I can say more about Ramsay's character than I can of Euron's: he's got a chip on his shoulder about being lowborn and a bastard, he romanticizes his mother's rape, and he's particularly vicious against Theon because he's everything Ramsay is not. Like you said, even freaking Gregor has his blinding headaches, for crying out loud. 

I'm gonna take a page from Mr. Plinkett's book and try to describe Euron's character without mentioning his looks, gear or profession:

He's...mad, I guess. Cruel...crafty, I suppose. He's...I mean, that's it. I'm drawing a blank.

If I had a gun to my head, the most I can say about Euron (and even this is a stretch and a fanwank) is that he doesn't believe in gods (why? No fucking clue) and is (maybe? I'm guessing?) pissed about the whole concept of religion and belief, so he systematically tortures all these different priests to shatter their faith and then he hangs them from the prows as a symbol of the gods' nonexistence or futility. So he's basically a deranged philosophy sophomore student. 

But that's me fanwanking, actively trying to come up with something to fill the void that's Euron. 

Sure, he could go interesting places. There's some potential, but I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far. 

Well, but he pretty much hates everyone, doesn't he?  He hates his family.  He thinks the Iron Born are a bunch of dumb thugs, which they kind of are.  He mocks religion while drinking a quasi magical drink and has all kinds of magical implements...he seems to also hate women, since he repaid the Flower girl's adulation with humiliation and death, doesn't even care about his unborn child.

Don't get me wrong, I feel this could go south really easily, and be GRRM version of custer's last stand...where his reaction to criticism of Dorne and IB is to double down and spend even more time on those stories....to furiously write and write and write these secondary sagas to "prove" they're important.  But, I thought the chapter was interesting on a few levels, more than can be said for Arianne.  But, Euron ain't no Tywin Lannister, and I think never will be.

 

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6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Why do people think Euron is an agent of the Others?  WTF?

He's a madman.  I thought the chapter was interesting in that he's got valyrian steel armor, and he appears in visions seated on the IT.  It could be argued that he's something like the sequel's tendency for over the top violence and gore.....but the jury is still out on that one...he will clearly be a serious foe of Dany and everyone else in Westeros.  I can't say I've changed my mind about the idea of a crazy, sadistic, sorcerer pirate not being the best character to bring to the forefront, but he seems a bit more interesting now.

Not an agent...yet, but a wannabe. I see him as being like the Joker, "some men just want to watch the world burn." He wants to be a god. Personally, I think that makes him a very interesting villain, far from cartoonish or simply a mad man. 

Anyway, you should check out PoorQuentyns theories on Euron if you haven't already. Check out their Euron tag on their blog. 

These are some of PQ's best Euron theories:

Euron and the Eldritch Apocalypse 

Euron is the new Night's King

Euron is the rogue student of Bloodraven:

Evidence

basically he is the anakin to bloodravens Obi-Wan, while Bran is the Luke (I am simplifying this, but you get the gist) 

Possible pointers on the show that point towards this theory

                                                                                                                                     

Edited by ~DarkHorse~
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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, but he pretty much hates everyone, doesn't he?  He hates his family.  He thinks the Iron Born are a bunch of dumb thugs, which they kind of are.  He mocks religion while drinking a quasi magical drink and has all kinds of magical implements...he seems to also hate women, since he repaid the Flower girl's adulation with humiliation and death, doesn't even care about his unborn child.

You're right, I guess he's more of an equal opportunity hater, like Trump. So that's a potentially interesting wrinkle we could scratch from his character. 

I too think this chapter is miles better than the dumpster fire that was Arianne II. Jesus Christ, what the fuck was that? But it also kind of makes me wonder if GRRM's bag of tricks isn't as extensive as we once thought. This chapter had a very real "been there, done that" vibe for me. 

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