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[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)


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12 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Euron doesn't need money. His Valyrian Steel armor set is good enough to buy a whole kingdom if he so wanted.

So what? Who the hell would give Euron 'a kingdom' in exchange for his Valyrian armor? Who would have the coin to pay something like that? If he ever needed to sell it for coin he would be done anyway. And if all the movable riches he has is the plunder he gives away he has pretty much nothing.

12 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I don't think Euron cares about a land-based army either. He seems set on sacrificing his troops and the Redwynes for a magic ritual that will do something that make having troops irrelevant.

He can only hope to destroy the Redwyne fleet. Magic is not going to help him with everything. If he wants to take the Seven Kingdoms he needs an army and allies he can use on land. The Ironborn are a joke in that department and could never hope to hold any land away from the coast or the waterways.

12 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Euron also has a glass candle right next to him at Oldtown. He can look for her and see where she's at. And I think he's pretty content to wait.

Well, that would mean that Euron does nothing throughout TWoW because Dany is going to come to Westeros in the next book. I don't think Euron will do nothing for an entire book. And seeing Dany from afar doesn't mean knowing she'll ever go to Westeros or arrive there alive.

Dragonbinder is now effectively lost to Euron, too, making his situation much more precarious.

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5 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I didn't see this written elsewhere so I thought I'd mention it. 

Euron coming across the Qartheen warlocks seems entirely providential. Unless of course he had already heard about her and the dragons and was heading to Qarth looking for her.

The one thing for certain that the Qartheen warlocks tells us is that Euron was indeed in the area of the world he claimed to be. Supposedly Euron came upon the warlocks on their way to Slaver's Bay. This means he had to have caught them somewhere between Qarth and Slaver's Bay. The only three things of interest in that area are Qarth, Slaver's Bay, and the Smoking Sea (Valyria).

So Euron was in that area of the world at the same time as Dany and her dragons. Hell, Euron may have already seen the dragons. The question is why has he returned to Westeros? What is it that he needs from the Iron Islands? Answer, the Iron Fleet. All the stuff is he doing in Westeros at this point is just distraction. He can't really do anything until he has Dany and those dragons.

I think there is a good chance that Euron was actually in Qarth when Dany arrived from the red waste. I'm re-reading pertinent chapters to get a better feel for what Euron actually knows.

Edited by bent branch
bad grammar
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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So what? Who the hell would give Euron 'a kingdom' in exchange for his Valyrian armor? Who would have the coin to pay something like that? If he ever needed to sell it for coin he would be done anyway. And if all the movable riches he has is the plunder he gives away he has pretty much nothing.

He can only hope to destroy the Redwyne fleet. Magic is not going to help him with everything. If he wants to take the Seven Kingdoms he needs an army and allies he can use on land. The Ironborn are a joke in that department and could never hope to hold any land away from the coast or the waterways.

Well, that would mean that Euron does nothing throughout TWoW because Dany is going to come to Westeros in the next book. I don't think Euron will do nothing for an entire book. And seeing Dany from afar doesn't mean knowing she'll ever go to Westeros or arrive there alive.

Dragonbinder is now effectively lost to Euron, too, making his situation much more precarious.

Anyone who is rich enough? The Iron Bank. Some cheese merchant. Illyrio who is rich enough to give away 3 dragon eggs to Daenerys.

Well we don't even know what the magic ritual is going to do. For all we know, it's going to summon the Deep Ones to fight for him. Hell if he takes over Oldtown he has the population of Oldtown to sacrifice.

And Euron doesn't have to interact with Daenerys to be doing something. He can try to take over the Reach while it's weak as he is doing right now. Oldtown and Highgarden are both next to the sea or on a river. 

Euron also doesn't need Dragonbinder anymore once Victarion or his thralls blows the horn. Rhaegal is going to race to Euron effectively making Euron a dragonrider.

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone
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4 minutes ago, bent branch said:

The one thing for certain that the Qartheen warlocks tells us is that Euron was indeed in the area of the world he claimed to be. Supposedly Euron came upon the warlocks on their way to Slaver's Bay. This means he had to have caught them somewhere between Qarth and Slaver's Bay. The only three things of interest in that area are Qarth, Slaver's Bay, and the Smoking Sea (Valyria).

So Euron was in that area of the world at the same time as Dany and her dragons. Hell, Euron may have already seen the dragons. The question is why has he returned to Westeros? What is it that he needs from the Iron Islands? Answer, the Iron Fleet. All the stuff is he doing in Westeros at this point is just distraction. He can't really do anything until he has Dany and those dragons.

I think there is a good chance that Euron was actually in Qarth when Dany arrived from the red waste. I'm re-reading pertinent chapters to get a better feel for what Euron actually knows.

Well there's a corsair king that was supposed to buy the Unsullied at Astapor before Daenerys took them all. Could be him.

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7 minutes ago, bent branch said:

The one thing for certain that the Qartheen warlocks tells us is that Euron was indeed in the area of the world he claimed to be. Supposedly Euron came upon the warlocks on their way to Slaver's Bay. This means he had to have caught them somewhere between Qarth and Slaver's Bay. The only three things of interest in that area are Qarth, Slaver's Bay, and the Smoking Sea (Valyria).

So Euron was in that area of the world at the same time as Dany and her dragons. Hell, Euron may have already seen the dragons. The question is why has he returned to Westeros? What is it that he needs from the Iron Islands? Answer, the Iron Fleet. All the stuff is he doing in Westeros at this point is just distraction. He can't really do anything until he has Dany and those dragons.

I think there is a good chance that Euron was actually in Qarth when Dany arrived from the red waste. I'm re-reading pertinent chapters to get a better feel for what Euron actually knows.

I think that if he was near enough he would have tried to intercept her and take her and/or the dragons by force or introduce himself and try to win her over.

I believe he may have followed and came to Slaver bay but now had an army which would have made things a lot more difficult for whatever purposes he had.

On a tangent, and I am basing this on nothing really, it could be that Gerion Lannister actually made it out of Valyria and ran into Euron, which is where all his magical treasures are from.

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On 6/30/2016 at 0:36 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Cersei's hands would be green not white though, it's simply not an accurate analogy.

Why green?  Regardless, I'm pretty sure with Queen Cersei, Qyburn will be given a much wider berth to perform dark magic / necromancy.   The color white probably signifies some Great Other power source.   I can't imagine who else would be this queen in Damphair's vision????

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10 hours ago, Mark the Red said:

Why green?  Regardless, I'm pretty sure with Queen Cersei, Qyburn will be given a much wider berth to perform dark magic / necromancy.   The color white probably signifies some Great Other power source.   I can't imagine who else would be this queen in Damphair's vision????

Well if your relating Cersei to fire then that fire should be wildfire which is green.  Who knows if it's even a real queen or not or if its an Other or what, I'm just saying Cersei is associated with green fire not white, although I guess if George showed us a Queen with green fire in her hands that would be too obvious.

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22 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Well there's a corsair king that was supposed to buy the Unsullied at Astapor before Daenerys took them all. Could be him.

I don't know why I didn't notice this until your post, but you're right. It could be him. If he was heading into Astapor while Dany was there he may have seen the dragons flying in the sky. But if he came in after she left he would have noticed the devastation she left behind. I'm sure that got Euron's complete attention.

22 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I think that if he was near enough he would have tried to intercept her and take her and/or the dragons by force or introduce himself and try to win her over.

I believe he may have followed and came to Slaver bay but now had an army which would have made things a lot more difficult for whatever purposes he had.

On a tangent, and I am basing this on nothing really, it could be that Gerion Lannister actually made it out of Valyria and ran into Euron, which is where all his magical treasures are from.

I don't think he would have since he really had nothing to offer her and he wasn't powerful enough to take Dany and her entourage. I think this is why he returned to the Iron Islands so that he would have something to offer her. As Lord Varys has been pointing out, even if Euron could take anywhere in Westeros, he couldn't keep it if it was too far from the sea.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which brings me to the reading I've been doing and I am positive that after Euron takes out the Redwyne and Hightower fleets he is heading to Meereen not Oldtown. To understand why this is so we need to answer the question, "Why did Euron send Vic to Dany?" The  answer to this is that Euron's Plan A fell through and sending Vic was Plan B. This is made quite clear in Chapter 29-AFFC. First lets look at what Plan A was:

Quote

"On the morrow we prepare once more to sail," the king was saying. "Fill our casks anew with spring water, take every sack of grain and cask of beef, and as many sheep and goats as we can carry. The wounded who are still hale enough to pull an oar will row. The rest will remain here, to help hold these isles for their new lords. Torwold and the Red Oarsman will soon be back with more provisions. Our decks will stink of pigs and chickens on the voyage east, but we'll return with dragons."

So Euron's Plan A was to go to Meereen and get Dany. He has no interest in Oldtown or any other place except as places to reave and get any needed supplies. Euron's first plan was to take all of the Iron Born and go get Dany. Euron has no plans to try to take Westeros without Dany and the dragons. The reason they didn't go east is because the Iron Born told Euron flat out no. Rodrik the Reader spoke, but everyone besides Euron's own men were in agreement. We have heard so much about Iron Born independence and we see here that even Euron is unable to control them.

So the fleet that Euron was planning to offer to Dany as a potential partner didn't cooperate. As Euron told Vic, “I had forgotten what a small and noisy folk they are, my ironborn. I would bring them dragons, and they shout for grapes.”Euron needed a Plan B:
 

Quote

 

...It comes to me that the Reader was not wrong. Too large a fleet could never hold together over such a distance. The voyage is too long, too perilous. Only our finest ships and crews could hope to sail to Slaver's Bay and back. The Iron Fleet.”

The Iron Fleet is mine, Victarion thought. He said nothing.

 

So Euron never had any intention of attacking anywhere in Westeros. His intention all along was to take all of the IB and pledge them to Dany. Since that didn't work out, he had Vic deliver the Iron Fleet to Dany. He takes the time to wipe out the Hightower and Redwyne fleets, but then plans to follow Vic to Meereen. Euron is completely aware that he can't advance his plans in Westeros without Dany.

Since he has no plans that don't include Dany and the dragons, the woman in the vision can only be Dany or Quaithe. It is definitely not Cersei.

So in summary, Euron isn't going to Oldtown or anywhere in Westeros. He is following Vic to Meereen.

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On 7/1/2016 at 4:37 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

Dragonbinder is now effectively lost to Euron, too, making his situation much more precarious.

This is not true at all. There is simply no way Euron would let Victarion sail away with Dragonbinder before making sure it was already bound to him as well as making sure he could keep his crow's eye focused on his brother. The Dusky Woman is either Euron's or Euron is warging into her. We know Vic is a fool and he is getting increasing contemptuous of his possible horn blowers so he probably going to blow the horn himself like the patsy he is and burn his insides up. The last thing Vic will see is as his organs blacken is "his" dragon in flight to Euron. 

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34 minutes ago, Unknownfinger said:

This is not true at all. There is simply no way Euron would let Victarion sail away with Dragonbinder before making sure it was already bound to him as well as making sure he could keep his crow's eye focused on his brother. The Dusky Woman is either Euron's or Euron is warging into her. We know Vic is a fool and he is getting increasing contemptuous of his possible horn blowers so he probably going to blow the horn himself like the patsy he is and burn his insides up. The last thing Vic will see is as his organs blacken is "his" dragon in flight to Euron. 

I'm with you that the Dusky Woman is Euron's agent. But now Moqorro is there and he calls the shots. He has already magically transformed Victarion. We know Moqorro wants to thwart Euron's plans for Dany, and the man certainly has the power to do so. Euron may have had his plans with Dragonbinder but who is to say that those haven't already been thwarted by Moqorro telling Victarion what the Valyrian glyphs meant?

Not to mention that Euron himself is no Valyrian dragonlord. He might be mistaken about how the horn even works.

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The horn and Moqorro confuse me greatly.  When he says that the horn must be bound by blood, and then we see Vic just cutting his hand and smearing it on the horn, that cannot be it.  I personally believe the person Euron had blow the horn at the Kingsmoot was a bastard son of his, a blood sacrifice.  Sacrificing his own blood(family) binds the horn to him, but why then would Moqorro not do more?  Just confusing.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm with you that the Dusky Woman is Euron's agent. But now Moqorro is there and he calls the shots. He has already magically transformed Victarion. We know Moqorro wants to thwart Euron's plans for Dany, and the man certainly has the power to do so. Euron may have had his plans with Dragonbinder but who is to say that those haven't already been thwarted by Moqorro telling Victarion what the Valyrian glyphs meant?

Not to mention that Euron himself is no Valyrian dragonlord. He might be mistaken about how the horn even works.

Now here's an explanation for why Euron might be sailing for Slaver's Bay. 

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@bent branch

Your reasoning why Euron might still want to go personally to Meereen even now is good but we have to ask ourselves what the narrative purpose of this stalling was. Why would George include plan B involving Victarion and then only return to plan after Euron has killed a bunch of extras (Paxter is nothing but a featured extra in the story).

If Euron is supposed to end up in Slaver's Bay anyway why not send him there in the first place? That is an important question. If Euron could only arrive at point x in the story there would be hundred ways to delay him the way - some devastating storms, trouble with the Volantenes, you name it. Hell, all the Ironborn could have remained behind for the Redwyne thing and Euron could afterwards force them sail to Slaver's Bay.

What is the point of getting Victarion and Dragonbinder there, and Euron then only later? I really don't see the point in that (although it could make sense if we knew what's going to happen).

4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The horn and Moqorro confuse me greatly.  When he says that the horn must be bound by blood, and then we see Vic just cutting his hand and smearing it on the horn, that cannot be it.  I personally believe the person Euron had blow the horn at the Kingsmoot was a bastard son of his, a blood sacrifice.  Sacrificing his own blood(family) binds the horn to him, but why then would Moqorro not do more?  Just confusing.

Well, we really have no idea what's going to happen. But Moqorro seems to know what's going to happen and it doesn't look as if that's going to be all that good for him.

There are so many unknowns to all this:

1. What exactly does Dragonbinder do? Does it bind one dragon to a person or is it a tool to bind a dragon to a bloodline? Does it have anything to do with 'mundane dragonbinding' (i.e. the way the historical Targaryens and Daenerys bonded with their dragons) or is it a weapon of sorts (perhaps designed to steal a dragon from his rightful owner, to claim a wild dragon, or to sever the existing bond between a dragon and his rider)?

2. How does it work? Does everybody's blood work smeared on it? Or is special blood (i.e. dragonlord blood) necessary? Is a blood sacrifice necessary to make it work?

3. Did Euron correctly figure out how it works? If so, how did he accomplish that?

4. Has Moqorro seen what the horn can do and what Euron has done with it? And can he thwart his plans?

5. How does Victarion's plan to bind himself to all three dragons fit together with Dany's (and our) knowledge that a dragonrider can only ride one dragon at a time?

My personal guess is that once Rhaegal (the only dragon close enough to hear the sound of the horn it seems) hears the sound of the horn he'll get mad with rage and descend onto Victarion, ripping him to pieces. That is the sort of glory I think Moqorro has foreseen and prepared for Victarion Greyjoy.

I don't know why that's going to happen. A lack of Valyrian blood could be the reason. Or Moqorro sabotaging the horn. Perhaps even a spell laid on the horn by Euron or the warlocks.

Considering that Euron's plan actually was to marry Daenerys and claim the Seven Kingdoms as her king consort and a dragonrider at her side I'd not be surprised if Euron intended to give Dragonbinder to Dany as a wedding gift. A tool which they could then use to tame and subdue her wild dragons.

In any case, the horn certainly has some narrative purpose. Perhaps it will help Tyrion (and Brown Ben) to claim a dragon? George may have realized that he cannot possibly pull a Prince Aemond with his stunted legs.

I don't see Victarion becoming a dragonrider and I also very much doubt that such a horn can force a dragon to recognize a new master and fly to him thousands of leagues. That reminds me too much of video game logic.

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People think that Euron send a Faceless man to kill Balon but I think in another possibility .

as I re reading AFFC and I perceive that is a bit emplied that Euron can controls the Wind,but Words are Wind,control the wind is actually a metaphor for something that He tells or do to Euron that will cause his fall in the future,but We don't know if Euron born with the ability to see the future or if he learn from someone...

 

Edited by Rodx
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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@bent branch

Your reasoning why Euron might still want to go personally to Meereen even now is good but we have to ask ourselves what the narrative purpose of this stalling was. Why would George include plan B involving Victarion and then only return to plan after Euron has killed a bunch of extras (Paxter is nothing but a featured extra in the story).

If Euron is supposed to end up in Slaver's Bay anyway why not send him there in the first place? That is an important question. If Euron could only arrive at point x in the story there would be hundred ways to delay him the way - some devastating storms, trouble with the Volantenes, you name it. Hell, all the Ironborn could have remained behind for the Redwyne thing and Euron could afterwards force them sail to Slaver's Bay.

What is the point of getting Victarion and Dragonbinder there, and Euron then only later? I really don't see the point in that (although it could make sense if we knew what's going to happen).

No, what we have to ask ourselves is, is there anything in the story that indicates that Euron has changed his mind in the least? GRRM has established in story that Euron wishes to go to Meereen and marry Dany. I have provided textual evidence that Euron wishes to go to Meereen. Can you or anyone else provide evidence to the contrary?

Indeed, the evidence is that Euron intended to destroy the Redwyne fleet before heading east even under Plan A. Notice this exchange from Chapter 29-AFFC:
 

Quote

 

"The roses?" Nute laughed. "What rose can harm the krakens of the deep? We have taken their shields from them, and smashed them all to pieces. Who will protect them now?"

"Highgarden," replied the Reader. "Soon enough all the power of the Reach will be marshaled against us, Barber,, and then you may learn that some roses have steel thorns."

Drumm nodded, one hand on the hilt of his Red Rain. "Lord Tarly bears the greatsword Heartsbane, forged of Valyrian steel, and he is always in Lord Tyrell's van."

Victarion's hunger flared. "Let him come. I will take his sword for mine own, as your forebear took Red Rain. Let them all come, and bring the Lannisters as well. A lion may be fierce enough on land, but a sea the kraken rules supreme." He would give half his teeth for the chance to try his axe against the Kingslayer or the Knight of Flowers. That was the sort of battle that he understood. The kinslayer was accursed in the eyes of gods and men, but the warrior was honored and revered.

"Have no fear, Lord Captain," said the Reader. "They will come. His Grace desires it. Why else would he have commanded us to let Hewett's ravens fly?"

 

It seems that Euron was planning on the battle with the Redwyne fleet even before the Ironborn said they wouldn't go to Meereen. This means the delay to fight the Redwyne fleet is not something that occurs because of the change of plans. The reason for destroying Redwyne's fleet before heading east is because of what the Reader said. The Iron Fleet, traveling half across the world in autumn would take a terrible beating by the time it returns to Westeros. By destroying the only remaining fleet in Westeros (known to Euron), Euron makes the return to Westeros much easier. Something else he can offer to Dany.

The only thing that changes in Euron's plan is that instead of trying to take all the uncontrollable Ironborn, Euron sends Victarion ahead with the only Ironborn that have been taught to obey orders. He leaves Victarion in charge because they obey Vic and Euron can't be sure they'd continue to obey without him.

The point in Euron and his crew showing up later is that they will be a surprise. GRRM doesn't like to do surprises without leaving breadcrumbs saying he's going to do it, but it seems pretty obvious from Chapter 29-(The Reaver)-AFFC and this sample chapter-The Forsaken-TWOW, that GRRM intends for Euron to show up unexpectedly in Meereen.

 

ETA: I am going to answer your question about why not send Euron directly to Dany. The reason is because Euron=Daario. Not in the way the proponents of that silly theory think, but because both Euron and Daario can offer something to Dany (Daario about 500 mercenaries and Euron about 5 ships of pirates), but neither can offer Dany enough to make them marriage material. That is why Euron bothers to return to the Iron Islands and become king. He needs to have a title and enough resources to make him a suitable marriage partner for Dany. Otherwise, he is just another Daario and Euron is smart enough to know that isn't enough.

 

Edited by bent branch
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@bent branch

That quote is good, but could also fall into Euron's reasoning to ensure those fools he gave the Shields to have something to do.

What irritates me about the idea that Euron still wants to go to Meereen is that he sent Victarion ahead with Dragonbinder. That certainly was some sort of risk, even if we assume the Dusky Woman was his and ensured that he would slowly die off his festered wound.

Vic's ship could sink, he could lose the horn, or Daenerys could simply take it from him.

Why didn't he simply accompany Victarion and the Iron Fleet? Wouldn't about a hundred ships enough to impress Dany?

But still, you got a point there. Perhaps he will really go to Slaver's Bay. Could make for a fine story, too.

I just don't think Dany and Euron will ever become allies.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@bent branch

That quote is good, but could also fall into Euron's reasoning to ensure those fools he gave the Shields to have something to do.

What irritates me about the idea that Euron still wants to go to Meereen is that he sent Victarion ahead with Dragonbinder. That certainly was some sort of risk, even if we assume the Dusky Woman was his and ensured that he would slowly die off his festered wound.

Vic's ship could sink, he could lose the horn, or Daenerys could simply take it from him.

Why didn't he simply accompany Victarion and the Iron Fleet? Wouldn't about a hundred ships enough to impress Dany?

But still, you got a point there. Perhaps he will really go to Slaver's Bay. Could make for a fine story, too.

I just don't think Dany and Euron will ever become allies.

Or maybe the horn has already been blown for Euron. Maybe whatever magic is in the horn has already done its work. If that is the case it doesn't matter where the horn is or who has it.

He didn't accompany Vic because he manipulated Vic into going. By giving Vic the horn and the illusion of being in charge, Euron manipulated Vic into doing what he wanted him to.

Really, the textual clues suggest Euron is going to Meereen. The only things being offered against this are rationalizations for things people don't want to happen story wise.

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