[TWoW Spoilers] Aeron I (Balticon)

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Guys, another thought I had about this chapter....

I think this chapter pretty much confirms that Euron paid the FM with a dragon egg to kill Balon. But from whatever I understood of the FM philosophy in AFFC, it seems to me they ask for a pretty massive sacrifice from the customer for carrying out a killing - proportional to whatever the person "holds dear". It's actually the only plausible way that the author keeps their price high enough so that every second character doesn't start hiring them to kill, after all.

But Euron seems pretty loaded with wealth, riches and loot from wherever he went (VS armor and so on). It seems pretty weird that all the FM would ask from him to carry out a killing would be a dragon egg. Especially when we know Euron has no qualms about kinslaying and could have probably worked out another way to kill Balon if he did not really want to give up the egg.

Thoughts?

[rhoynestar]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i have s question about Falia Flowers. 

Euron promised to marry her as his second wife, and she was pregnant, and she obviously loved Euron deeply. She was also quite beautiful. so what made Euron change his mind and try to kill her? 

Plain sadistic tendencies, I think. 

Also her only function was to help Euron humiliate her family by elevating a bastard girl over the trueborn members. Once that was done, he doesn't care. She's expendable and very much replaceable as a bedwarmer. The child, of course, doesn't matter to him one bit.

Edited July 11, 2016 by rhoynestar

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Guys, another thought I had about this chapter....

I think this chapter pretty much confirms that Euron paid the FM with a dragon egg to kill Balon. But from whatever I understood of the FM philosophy in AFFC, it seems to me they ask for a pretty massive sacrifice from the customer for carrying out a killing - proportional to whatever the person "holds dear". It's actually the only plausible way that the author keeps their price high enough so that every second character doesn't start hiring them to kill, after all.

But Euron seems pretty loaded with wealth, riches and loot from wherever he went (VS armor and so on). It seems pretty weird that all the FM would ask from him to carry out a killing would be a dragon egg. Especially when we know Euron has no qualms about kinslaying and could have probably worked out another way to kill Balon if he did not really want to give up the egg.

Thoughts?

You might find this interesting. 

[Einheri]

19 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

Plain sadistic tendencies, I think. 

Also her only function was to help Euron humiliate her family by elevating a bastard girl over the trueborn members. Once that was done, he doesn't care. She's expendable and very much replaceable as a bedwarmer. The child, of course, doesn't matter to him one bit.

I fear he might have more sinister plans in store for her and her unborn child, as one of the popular theories around here is that Euron will resort to blood magic (which requires sacrifice...), and call forth a massive storm, which will wreck havoc on the Redwyne fleet. This would be reminiscent of one of the myths surrounding the Battle of Hjörungavágr, that Haakon Sigurdsson sacrificed his youngest son, Erling, and it led to a massive storm (and apparently lots of Valkyries and shit), which scattered the fleet of the Jomsvikings.

[rhoynestar]

2 hours ago, Einheri said:

I fear he might have more sinister plans in store for her and her unborn child, as one of the popular theories around here is that Euron will resort to blood magic (which requires sacrifice...), and call forth a massive storm, which will wreck havoc on the Redwyne fleet. 

True, I agree that's a possibility. Plotwise it would make good sense for Euron to do something like that.

Although I have some doubts as well, because if he were going to use her and her fetus as a live sacrifice he should try to keep her alive and in decent shape as long as possible (sort of what Melisandre used to do, prep her victims before the flame or leech). Mutilating a pregnant woman and tying her to the prow of a sailing ship makes me think he doesn't care whether she miscarries/dies or not, which would indicate he may not be much into the blood sacrifice option. Of course Aeron Damphair may be his backup in case she dies.

Edited July 12, 2016 by rhoynestar

[Einheri]

4 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

True, I agree that's a possibility. Plotwise it would make good sense for Euron to do something like that.

Although I have some doubts as well, because if he were going to use her and her fetus as a live sacrifice he should try to keep her alive and in decent shape as long as possible (sort of what Melisandre used to do, prep her victims before the flame or leech). Mutilating a pregnant woman and tying her to the prow of a sailing ship makes me think he doesn't care whether she miscarries/dies or not, which would indicate he may not be much into the blood sacrifice option. Of course Aeron Damphair may be his backup in case she dies.

You raise some good points, and now that I think about it, the fact that he has her tongue cut also seems to indicate that he intends to make her a part of his crew of mutes. I mean, if she's just another sacrifice why bother with that?

Edit: ^Or perhaps that was just his original intention before he decided to have her tied up there with Aeron...?

Edited July 12, 2016 by Einheri

[The Fattest Leech]

I am going to put this here because 1. I haven't seen it mentioned yet and I wanted to share for thoughts and ideas, and 2. I know there is a white-flame-woman-hand thread, but I can't find it.

This is Melisandre talking to Jon and I included the whole section just to give a better idea of the situation.

Anyway, thoughts?:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

"A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about. Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood." She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. "You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say … but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand." The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister."

[The Sleeper]

@The Fattest LeechThe characterization doesn't add up. Melisandre is actually trying to save the world. Euron seems pretty ok with the idea of it ending. It's hard to see Melisandre enjoying chaos for the sake of it as Euron seems to be doing in the vision.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, The Sleeper said:

@The Fattest LeechThe characterization doesn't add up. Melisandre is actually trying to save the world. Euron seems pretty ok with the idea of it ending. It's hard to see Melisandre enjoying chaos for the sake of it as Euron seems to be doing in the vision.

I think it could be more of a connection to the red god not being so "good". Also, Mel doesn't really interpret things so well and she has a negative physical reaction to what she sees in her flames in her Dance chapter.

It was just an idea anyway because I know we are all scrambling for the book to be released. That's all

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am going to put this here because 1. I haven't seen it mentioned yet and I wanted to share for thoughts and ideas, and 2. I know there is a white-flame-woman-hand thread, but I can't find it.

This is Melisandre talking to Jon and I included the whole section just to give a better idea of the situation.

Anyway, thoughts?:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

"A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about. Hear me now, Jon Snow. Nine crows flew into the white wood to find your foes for you. Three of them are dead. They have not died yet, but their death is out there waiting for them, and they ride to meet it. You sent them forth to be your eyes in the darkness, but they will be eyeless when they return to you. I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood." She pushed her red hair back, and her red eyes shone. "You do not believe me. You will. The cost of that belief will be three lives. A small price to pay for wisdom, some might say … but not one you had to pay. Remember that when you behold the blind and ravaged faces of your dead. And come that day, take my hand." The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. "Take my hand," she said again, "and let me save your sister."

The comparisons being made to Melisandre are not misguided. However, Melisandre has two qualities that are not often enough considered separately. Melisandre is a red priest and she is a shadow binder. If the characteristic being displayed is one of the red priests', than we should consider other red priests. However, if the characteristic derives from her being a shadow binder, then we should consider the shadow binders we know. This is why I think Quaithe.

[Maester Vargo]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 8:40 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

You can bet that if Euron had any kind of skinchanging power, we would have seen it by now. A guy like this isn't going to refrain from mind-controlling people/animals to achieve his ends.

We must also remember that skinchanging/greenseeing, as a type of magic, is one that seems to be enhanced with a personal (bodily) sacrifice. Bran loses his legs, Bloodraven has practically gone into the tree, Arya skinchanges the cat in Braavos when she's blind.

Euron hasn't sacrificed any part of himself yet -  he seems to sacrifice others to harness magic (which seems to be the MO of eastern magic practitioners:  see R'hllor priests, birth of Dany's dragons, so on.). It seems to me that Euron is like an antithesis of Bran - someone who desperately wants to perform magic, become a God and rule the world rather than being born with an innate ability to do so. He appears to have learnt methods to perform magic through either study or observation during his travels,IMO.

What if we have seen it and just haven't recognized it?  Euron's man blows the dragonbinder horn, sacrificing his own life for no real reason beyond showing to the Ironborn that Euron's crew will die for him, even if there isn't a reason.  I think that it's more than possible that the removal of his crew's tongues isn't just to keep them quiet, I think there's a magical ritual involved that binds them to him and gives him some kind of power over them.  Whether or not it involves warging into them, I can't say. 

I also don't think that Euron hired a FM to kill Balon.  I think either Euron did it himself, perhaps using a glamour to cover up his identity to castle guards and such, or he sent one of his tongueless men to kill Balon. 

Perhaps his magic is powered through removing the tongues of his crew.   Keep in mind Varys' story.  The sorcerer cut off Varys' little spider and fed it to the flames to power his magic.  Euron may gain some kind of power by taking the tongues of his crew as a sacrifice to power some kind of dark magic.  He's been to Asshai (supposedly) and could have learned some kind of magics not seen elsewhere to date. 

I think the tongue removal is a kind of bloodmagic that binds the victim to Euron in a way that allows Euron to dominate their willpower, perhaps even at great distance, but not necessarily skinchange into them.  For example, he can't actively communicate with the Dusky Woman and he can't see what she sees or know what she knows (though who knows what an obsidian candle would allow), but he gave her commands before she left and she has to follow them through to the best of her ability.  Keep Victarion happy.  Kill him if need be.  When the time is right, grab the horn and blow it. 

When the horn is blown, the Dragon is bound to her, but she dies (which normally frees the dragon), but since she's a slave to Euron's will, the Dragon becomes bound to her master, Euron.  That's my theory anyway. 

Edited to add:

Another bit of support of this is the concept of thralls.  The Ironborn take captives as semi-slaves they call Thralls. Thrall is a derived from a norse word that means a person in bondage or slavery.  Given what we know about the Ironborn, that's an appropriate term to use, if archaic.  Thrall has a second (more modern) meaning, though.  Dictionary.com also defines thrall as "a person who is morally or mentally enslaved by some power, influence, or the like".  His magic makes his crew thralls in that more modern sense.  They're not just held in bondage.  Their minds are enslaved, not just their bodies. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Maester Vargo
additional thoughts.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

2 hours ago, Maester Vargo said:

What if we have seen it and just haven't recognized it?  Euron's man blows the dragonbinder horn, sacrificing his own life for no real reason beyond showing to the Ironborn that Euron's crew will die for him, even if there isn't a reason.  I think that it's more than possible that the removal of his crew's tongues isn't just to keep them quiet, I think there's a magical ritual involved that binds them to him and gives him some kind of power over them.  Whether or not it involves warging into them, I can't say. 

I also don't think that Euron hired a FM to kill Balon.  I think either Euron did it himself, perhaps using a glamour to cover up his identity to castle guards and such, or he sent one of his tongueless men to kill Balon. 

Perhaps his magic is powered through removing the tongues of his crew.   Keep in mind Varys' story.  The sorcerer cut off Varys' little spider and fed it to the flames to power his magic.  Euron may gain some kind of power by taking the tongues of his crew as a sacrifice to power some kind of dark magic.  He's been to Asshai (supposedly) and could have learned some kind of magics not seen elsewhere to date. 

I think the tongue removal is a kind of bloodmagic that binds the victim to Euron in a way that allows Euron to dominate their willpower, perhaps even at great distance, but not necessarily skinchange into them.  For example, he can't actively communicate with the Dusky Woman and he can't see what she sees or know what she knows (though who knows what an obsidian candle would allow), but he gave her commands before she left and she has to follow them through to the best of her ability.  Keep Victarion happy.  Kill him if need be.  When the time is right, grab the horn and blow it. 

When the horn is blown, the Dragon is bound to her, but she dies (which normally frees the dragon), but since she's a slave to Euron's will, the Dragon becomes bound to her master, Euron.  That's my theory anyway. 

Edited to add:

Another bit of support of this is the concept of thralls.  The Ironborn take captives as semi-slaves they call Thralls. Thrall is a derived from a norse word that means a person in bondage or slavery.  Given what we know about the Ironborn, that's an appropriate term to use, if archaic.  Thrall has a second (more modern) meaning, though.  Dictionary.com also defines thrall as "a person who is morally or mentally enslaved by some power, influence, or the like".  His magic makes his crew thralls in that more modern sense.  They're not just held in bondage.  Their minds are enslaved, not just their bodies. 

That's basically what I was saying in my post -  that Euron knows magic, but not the skinchanging/Old Gods type of magic, because we have first-hand seen through Varamyr and Bran's POVs how difficult it is to skinchange a human. I mean, if Euron could do that seamlessly, then he could just warg the dragons.

As to Balon's death, we know that an FM killed Balon for sure because of the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy in ASOS - 

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."

But the rest I don't think anyone would disagree with - the man surely has learnt very dark, arcane magic from wherever he supposedly travelled to. Considering that even the Faceless Men don't seem to have asked much of him for the killing of Balon, it is quite possible that he has struck some kind of deal with them.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think it could be more of a connection to the red god not being so "good". Also, Mel doesn't really interpret things so well and she has a negative physical reaction to what she sees in her flames in her Dance chapter.

It was just an idea anyway because I know we are all scrambling for the book to be released. That's all

I posted the same quote a few pages back with almost exactly the same conclusion - probably Euron + red priests might wreak havoc on Westeros. . I don't think Melisandre, misguided as she is, would help Euron destroy the world.

There was discussion that the "tall woman with hands of pale fire" could most likely be Cersei. Even though I agree with the idea that Euron + Cersei might team up, I think the woman in the vision is definitely a "magic" wielder or has supernatural connections of some kind.

Quaithe is not really a bad candidate, if you think about it. She warns Dany about everyone coming her way except Euron -  in fact she actually tells her not to trust the 'kraken and dark flame' - the people who would be able to tell her how dangerous he is.

[The Fattest Leech]

16 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I posted the same quote a few pages back with almost exactly the same conclusion - probably Euron + red priests might wreak havoc on Westeros. . I don't think Melisandre, misguided as she is, would help Euron destroy the world.

There was discussion that the "tall woman with hands of pale fire" could most likely be Cersei. Even though I agree with the idea that Euron + Cersei might team up, I think the woman in the vision is definitely a "magic" wielder or has supernatural connections of some kind.

Quaithe is not really a bad candidate, if you think about it. She warns Dany about everyone coming her way except Euron -  in fact she actually tells her not to trust the 'kraken and dark flame' - the people who would be able to tell her how dangerous he is.

I figured someone else might have.  I couldn't find that thread you mentioned so that's why I dropped this here. I figured it was atleast on topic, if not a little random. 

Hmmm, what is Quaithe up to??? She was like Daario in that she was heavily encouraging Dany to find her inner dragon. I do think Daario is set to betray Dany very soon in the next book. 

Gods, I can't wait!!! 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I figured someone else might have.  I couldn't find that thread you mentioned so that's why I dropped this here. I figured it was atleast on topic, if not a little random. 

Hmmm, what is Quaithe up to??? She was like Daario in that she was heavily encouraging Dany to find her inner dragon. I do think Daario is set to betray Dany very soon in the next book. 

Gods, I can't wait!!! 

Quaithe is bad news for sure, IMO. Nothing like a few cryptic warnings to fan the paranoia of a lonely Targ queen disillusioned by life . Poor Dany.

[chrisdaw]

Why Euron cuts tongues is probably in the text.

Quote

"A folly," sighed Tyrion. "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."

Possibly he fears what they would say, like if he were skinchanging them.

Quote

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spearwife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. "Get out, get out!" he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

Possibly he skinchanges them, and he's sick of the experience of biting his own tongue out.

There is in the Varamyr chapter another point for Euron being a general skinchanger but not necessarily a taker of humans.

Quote

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

This is Euron all over. Say if he were a skinchanger of crows, and then decided he wanted more. Though it kind of suits if he were a failed skinchanger too, one who knows BR could do it and was on the verge himself but frustratingly just couldn't manage it.

It also points to Bloodraven being not necessarily evil, but you know. And little bird Sansa, the dreamer.
 

Quote

 

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Dany looked uneasily at where the ladder had stood. Even the smoke was gone now, and the crowd was breaking up, each man going about his business. In a moment more than a few would find their purses flat and empty. "And now?"

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

 

Thinking on this quote more, I think two trains of thought. Either Euron is the kraken in the net and there's someone controlling him/influencing him that is the fisherman.

OR

Euron is the fisherman, the kraken in his nets are literally krakens, he's learned to skinchange/tame them, or is close to doing so. Perhaps it goes to Quaithe's point, magic is growing more powerful for everyone since Dany woke her dragons, including Euron. And maybe that's why Euron is making his play now. Possibly he was a failed skinchanger, but then Dany woke her dragons and now he's a very real skinchanger.

Pale flames, queer light and the like are indicative of sorcery (since forever in the genre), magic. Jon notices the pale light on Mel because she was just glamouring. The pale light doesn't indicate Mel, it indicates magic, Euron's mate with pale hands is a sorcerer like Mel.

[Unknownfinger]

On 7/9/2016 at 4:36 PM, The fanny from hell said:

Another aspect I thought about: there's a subsection of book readers who love the military/strategy angle on ASOIAF. And it's been known for ages that the closer the series got to its end, the more prevalent the magical aspect would be. But this chapter brought home not only how big a role magic would play, which we could infer from other POV's, but a special aspect about it: this guy, Euron Greyjoy, will be bending the natural order on a big scale to turn the tides (pun intended) in a battle, and perhaps even summon creatures from the sea.

This development is bound to annoy some of that subset of readers.

This, but not as much as Act II's (The FeastDance) annoyed those who wanted more focus on "plot" and established favorite characters than on GRRM's musings about origin stories (fAegon), quests (Brienne, Quentyn) setting up Act III by showing the political, social and moral deterioration caused by the War of the Five Kings on Westeros etc. As TWOW is going to put and end to most of the political and military storylines I do think  a section of the fan base will be a bit miffed. I, for one, don't have too much interest in the more science fiction aspects like hiveminds etc but can't wait for the horror story to begin in ernest. Cannot wait! 

[Ser Quork]

10 hours ago, Unknownfinger said:

This, but not as much as Act II's (The FeastDance) annoyed those who wanted more focus on "plot" and established favorite characters than on GRRM's musings about origin stories (fAegon), quests (Brienne, Quentyn) setting up Act III by showing the political, social and moral deterioration caused by the War of the Five Kings on Westeros etc. As TWOW is going to put and end to most of the political and military storylines I do think  a section of the fan base will be a bit miffed. I, for one, don't have too much interest in the more science fiction aspects like hiveminds etc but can't wait for the horror story to begin in ernest. Cannot wait! 

and from unexpected sources too, I hope.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 13-7-2016 at 2:05 AM, Maester Vargo said:

What if we have seen it and just haven't recognized it?  Euron's man blows the dragonbinder horn, sacrificing his own life for no real reason beyond showing to the Ironborn that Euron's crew will die for him, even if there isn't a reason.  I think that it's more than possible that the removal of his crew's tongues isn't just to keep them quiet, I think there's a magical ritual involved that binds them to him and gives him some kind of power over them.  Whether or not it involves warging into them, I can't say. 

Do we know Euron knew that the man who blew the horn would die?

Perhaps he didn't know.

On 13-7-2016 at 2:05 AM, Maester Vargo said:

I also don't think that Euron hired a FM to kill Balon.  I think either Euron did it himself, perhaps using a glamour to cover up his identity to castle guards and such, or he sent one of his tongueless men to kill Balon. 

Then how would you interpret the vision of the Ghost of High Hearth?

[chrisdaw]

Euron in his talk with Victarion speaks as though he didn't know the horn blower would die, though he wasn't exactly surprised. Like he thought it was a possibility and had it confirmed.